The LIO DAC 2.0 information and discussion thread

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Mitch751

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Re: The LIO DAC 2.0 information and discussion thread
« Reply #120 on: 6 Feb 2019, 03:57 am »
well note,

thank you for your prompt reply.


olegausany

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Re: The LIO DAC 2.0 information and discussion thread
« Reply #121 on: 10 Feb 2019, 06:32 am »
Hi Mitch751

I don't know what is the reason for your question besides confirming your findings while you are using LIO but if you are looking for the best sound and if you are using Roon and your computer is capable of handling it, I would recommend you to use the following configuration. Make sure DAC is set to use default non oversampling filter. Then go to Roon settings, find your LIO and enable DSP for it. Turn on upsampling to DSD256 and make sure that it is says Native DSD and let LIO's DAC do its magic of converting DSD straight to the analog. Remember that upsampling to DSD is very processor intensive and will be done by your computer's processor so make sure it up to the task. If you are using Apple computer remember that they use same Intel processors used by computers running Windows

In response to the question about USB cable a couple of posts above, yes different cables will make the difference but remember that more expensive it does not always mean better
For several years I'm using Japanese cable I got from Amazon, after reading a detailed review about it in one of the two well-known magazines about High End Audio, which gives much better sound than twice more expensive Audioquest cable which was, or maybe still is, on Stereophile's Recommended Components List

Mitch751

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Re: The LIO DAC 2.0 information and discussion thread
« Reply #122 on: 10 Feb 2019, 07:38 am »
When I first purchased LIO, it came with DAC version 1.0 and its Filters functions are differently with DAC 2.0. I did not realize it does the oversampling by selecting filter 1, until I read a post here.

I am currently using either Audiravana + to oversampling to DSD 256 or PCM 764, or Roon + HQ player oversampling to DSD256, and sometimes my MacBook pro crashed during the play.

The LIO Dac 2.0 with this oversampling may not be as good as compared with software, but to me it is already good enough.

Mitch751

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Re: The LIO DAC 2.0 information and discussion thread
« Reply #123 on: 10 Feb 2019, 07:40 am »
for USB cable, I have changed from Audioquest Diamond to Curious cable, which made in Australia and it sounds better and price much lesser

dspringham

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Re: The LIO DAC 2.0 information and discussion thread
« Reply #124 on: 10 Feb 2019, 05:49 pm »
Anyone care to venture an opinion on this - which would you think would offer the best overall (by the usual hi-fi parameters) performance?

Assumptions - good USB transport, LIO amp module

1. LIO Dac 1.0 with DHT stage

OR

2. LIO Dac 2.0 with AVC/Tube stage

Comments???

olegausany

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Re: The LIO DAC 2.0 information and discussion thread
« Reply #125 on: 10 Feb 2019, 06:35 pm »
Hi dspringham

While I never heard DAC 2.0 with AVC/tubes, I had DAC 1.0 with all possible configurations starting with RVC/tubes and ending with DHT and believe me DHT is the way to go. And yes I have tried different tubes with RVC and AVC including famous cyro treated Telefunken from Upscale Audio.
If i guess correctly you can't afford DAC 2.0 with DHT and asking about other options but DHT is the way to go

Terence T.

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Re: The LIO DAC 2.0 information and discussion thread
« Reply #126 on: 11 Feb 2019, 05:12 pm »
Hi dspringham

While I never heard DAC 2.0 with AVC/tubes, I had DAC 1.0 with all possible configurations starting with RVC/tubes and ending with DHT and believe me DHT is the way to go. And yes I have tried different tubes with RVC and AVC including famous cyro treated Telefunken from Upscale Audio.
If i guess correctly you can't afford DAC 2.0 with DHT and asking about other options but DHT is the way to go

Hi dspringham,

Pardon me to chime in. I agreed with Olegausany to go for the DHT Pre module. I, too, have never heard AVC/Tubestage with DAC 2.0 but I chose to go with the DHT Pre with the DAC 1.0 from my AVC/Tubestage and I never looked back. With AVC/Tubestage I was fortunate to have in my possession tubes like the Mullard and Philips Miniwatt SQ E88CCs and I must say that they are outstanding tubes. In comparison (in my listening room), the DHT Pre is in another league. Here are some of the superb qualities the DHT Pre brings: (a) Lifelike music with a wider soundstage and layerings (b) Better dynamics & transients of musical instruments (c) Richest tone in the vocal/midrange. If your budget permits go with the DHT Pre route and you will be rewarded with better openness and flow of music in your system. I hope my two cents' worth will be of help to you. :duh:

dspringham

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Re: The LIO DAC 2.0 information and discussion thread
« Reply #127 on: 11 Feb 2019, 11:28 pm »
olegausany and Terence T.,

Thank you for your replies (seems pretty quiet on the Vinnie circles these days).

Sounds like you both have a similar perspective regarding DHT. I did in fact upgrade from AVC/Tube to DHT some time ago and have been considering whether to take the plunge for the DAC 2.0 upgrade. Presently I'm using Vinnie's (Red Wine Audio) Level 3 modified Sony HAP-Z1ES servers/players as analogue source. Sounds wonderful through the LIO line input.

With the DAC 2.0 upgrade, the Sony would be used as a digital server only (USB output). Just wondering if I would gain enough sound quality improvement to justify the upgrade cost.

Regarding LIO with DHT, in some ways I miss the flexibility of being able to go pure passive (AVC only) in the LIO since the Sony-RWA 3 already has Vinnie's high quality battery powered tube output stage (using the same tube variants as the LIO).

As an aside, what tubes are you guys using in your LIO DHT's. I'm currently running the PX4's but have a real hankering to try the Tak 300b's. Hmmmm... DAC 2.0 upgrade versus Tak 300b tube upgrade.  Arrrgh... never ends.

Hey Vinnie, what say you!




Vinnie R.

Re: The LIO DAC 2.0 information and discussion thread
« Reply #128 on: 12 Feb 2019, 01:37 am »
When I first purchased LIO, it came with DAC version 1.0 and its Filters functions are differently with DAC 2.0. I did not realize it does the oversampling by selecting filter 1, until I read a post here.

I am currently using either Audiravana + to oversampling to DSD 256 or PCM 764, or Roon + HQ player oversampling to DSD256, and sometimes my MacBook pro crashed during the play.

The LIO Dac 2.0 with this oversampling may not be as good as compared with software, but to me it is already good enough.

Hi Mitch751,

Yes - the filters for LIO DAC 1.0 and DAC 2.0 are very different.  Only LIO DAC 2.0 has the "non-oversampling, digital-filterless mode" (my personal favorite, and to me it sounds the most natural and effortless).

If you want to do sample-rate conversion to DSD256, try doing it in Roon (without HQ Player).  It works very well and seems to be stable.
This is what I have been doing for a while (I haven't really noticed much difference between converting to DSD512 vs DSD256, so I use DSD256 because it is easier on the computer - as Oleg mentioned above).

Quote
The LIO Dac 2.0 with this oversampling may not be as good as compared with software, but to me it is already good enough.

I find for best results, use LIO DAC 2.0 in Filter2 (which is default when you turn ON LIO).  This is the non-oversampling, digital-filterless filter mode, and then either play your files at their native resolution, or try Roon sample-rate conversion of all files to DSD256. 

Quote
Anyone care to venture an opinion on this - which would you think would offer the best overall (by the usual hi-fi parameters) performance?

Assumptions - good USB transport, LIO amp module
1. LIO Dac 1.0 with DHT stage
OR
2. LIO Dac 2.0 with AVC/Tube stage

Hi dspringham,

Number (1) above would be my pick of the two, but if you can do LIO DAC 2.0 + LIO DHT PRE, then you are taking the performance of the current LIO platform to the max.

Quote
Thank you for your replies (seems pretty quiet on the Vinnie circles these days).

Hey Vinnie, what say you!

Sorry for not posting here nearly as much as I would like to - I have been as busy as ever.  Very exciting things are in the works for 2019! 

Quote
With the DAC 2.0 upgrade, the Sony would be used as a digital server only (USB output). Just wondering if I would gain enough sound quality improvement to justify the upgrade cost.

The LIO DAC 2.0 leaves the Level 3 modded Sony Z1ES's dac and analog output stage in the dust, especially with its default non-oversampling, digital filterless mode and dual Class A JFET outptu stages.  I never tested the USB output of the Z1ES because back then when I was modding them, Sony didn't have the firmware update for this.  At that time, the USB jack was only for connecting an external drive.   

Have you tried the USB output of the Z1E into the LIO DAC 1.0?  How does it sound?

Quote
Regarding LIO with DHT, in some ways I miss the flexibility of being able to go pure passive (AVC only) in the LIO since the Sony-RWA 3 already has Vinnie's high quality battery powered tube output stage (using the same tube variants as the LIO).

If you are already using LIO DHT PRE, I would not bother with the Sony's modded 6922 tube output stage. 

Quote
Hmmmm... DAC 2.0 upgrade versus Tak 300b tube upgrade.  Arrrgh... never ends.

LIO DAC 2.0 first (substantial improved over DAC 1.0) - use your Z1ES as a transport, or consider using a computer with Roon instead, and then later try to get a pair of TAK TA300B with a return policy (not sure if partsconnexion offers this), just to make sure they win you over compared to the KR PX4.

BTW - This fall is LIO's 5th year anniversary! 8) 

Vinnie

ebag4

Re: The LIO DAC 2.0 information and discussion thread
« Reply #129 on: 12 Feb 2019, 01:39 am »
Hi dspringham, I can offer another opinion (just to confuse things more :D) from someone who went from avc/tube, to DHT, to DAC 2.0. 

In my system, the most significant improvement was found moving to the DAC 2.0.  The DHT is a nice improvement and allows you to add spice, but the DAC upgrade improved the clarity, detail and tone while retrieving more information from the source, to my ears, the the difference was not subtle.

BTW; I am currently running the Takatsuki 300bs, they are very nice.

Best,
Ed

Vinnie R.

Re: The LIO DAC 2.0 information and discussion thread
« Reply #130 on: 12 Feb 2019, 01:41 am »
Hi Ed,

Looks like you just posted a minute after my last post above.

Thanks for chiming in as well!

Vinnie

Mitch751

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Re: The LIO DAC 2.0 information and discussion thread
« Reply #131 on: 12 Feb 2019, 01:42 am »
Thank you for your suggestion, I have tried using ROON only oversampling to DSD 256 or PCM 768, I do agree with you this is the best option.


Terence T.

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Re: The LIO DAC 2.0 information and discussion thread
« Reply #132 on: 12 Feb 2019, 08:17 pm »
Hi dspringham,

I'm glad that you're enjoying your DHT Pre. The tubes I have in the my DHT Pre system are a matched pair of Takatsuki 300Bs which really add improved details and realism to the audio frequency spectrum. In fact with the upgrading to the latest DAC 2.0 (Belleson SPZ Type Super Regulator) last month, for me the DAC 2.0 further enhances the openness, individual details & tonal quality of the whole imaginary soundstage and a much lower noise floor.

Terence

SteveKi

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Re: The LIO DAC 2.0 information and discussion thread
« Reply #133 on: 13 Feb 2019, 12:26 am »

Sorry for not posting here nearly as much as I would like to - I have been as busy as ever.  Very exciting things are in the works for 2019!

Vinnie

Now you got me curious. An improvement to the DAC 2.0?
Steve

dspringham

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Re: The LIO DAC 2.0 information and discussion thread
« Reply #134 on: 13 Feb 2019, 12:38 am »
Thanks for the great replies guys.

It sounds like some of you are already where I would wish to be- Dac 2.0 and Tak 300b's.

Wondering about what you are using for amplification - LIO internal or ???  How about speakers?




Vinnie R.

Re: The LIO DAC 2.0 information and discussion thread
« Reply #135 on: 13 Feb 2019, 02:05 am »
Now you got me curious. An improvement to the DAC 2.0?
Steve

Something much more substantial  :wink:

dspringham

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Re: The LIO DAC 2.0 information and discussion thread
« Reply #136 on: 19 Feb 2019, 10:15 pm »
Regarding the fixed low level output on the LIO DHT when DAC is selected, does the signal come from before or after the tube stage? Is it the same for DAC 1 as well as 2.0?


Vinnie R.

Re: The LIO DAC 2.0 information and discussion thread
« Reply #137 on: 19 Feb 2019, 11:45 pm »
Regarding the fixed low level output on the LIO DHT when DAC is selected, does the signal come from before or after the tube stage? Is it the same for DAC 1 as well as 2.0?

Hi dspringham,

The FIXED level RCA outputs of LIO are a direct connection from the source module (the dac or phonostage module) and bypass
the volume control and the DHT PRE stage.

If you want the DHT PRE in the loop for your line-level output, use the VAR (variable) output jacks and set the volume
accordingly (max volume is probably too high, as you would get an additional 6 to 9dB of gain on top of the DAC's 2Vrms output,
so that would be over 4Vrms). 

Vinnie

Mitch751

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Re: The LIO DAC 2.0 information and discussion thread
« Reply #138 on: 18 Mar 2019, 07:36 am »
Sorry I am a bit confused with the Sonore microRendu / ultraRendu setup, and hope someone can help before to buy one ?

Firstly, instead of connect the Sonore to router, can I connect it to my MacBook Pro via ethernet port instead  ?

MBP > ethernet > Sonore > USB > LIO Dac 2

Secondly, does it mean I will control the Roon from my MacBook ? If so, in Roon of MBP, shall I choose Sonore or LIO for the Audio Zone?

Thank you

Vinnie R.

Re: The LIO DAC 2.0 information and discussion thread
« Reply #139 on: Yesterday at 04:33 pm »
Sorry I am a bit confused with the Sonore microRendu / ultraRendu setup, and hope someone can help before to buy one ?

Firstly, instead of connect the Sonore to router, can I connect it to my MacBook Pro via ethernet port instead  ?

MBP > ethernet > Sonore > USB > LIO Dac 2

Secondly, does it mean I will control the Roon from my MacBook ? If so, in Roon of MBP, shall I choose Sonore or LIO for the Audio Zone?

Thank you

Hi Mitch751,

It's been a while since I've used a microRendu, but I seem to recall Sonore not recommending a direct connection.  I recommend you contact them to be sure about this.

Regarding Roon, if you install it on your MBP, then you will control your music from your MBP (or via a smartphone / tablet Roon remote app that wirelessly connects to your MBP).

In Roon settings, you will see the Sonore and select it.  Sonore's USB output feeds to the LIO DAC 2.0.

Best regards,

Vinnie