[ACHiPo]

Evan,
It might be easier to consider the feet - height of the motor, plinth, and pod, at the same time.  The motor might be better with rubber or sorbothane underneath, and the plinth and pod with spikes.
neo

Neo,
I agree.  I'm going to keep going on the pod approach, but as a contingency I'm also reconsidering the idea of bolting the WTT plinth and additional tonearm to a base with a hole for the motor.  Hard to describe, but basically just expanding the WTT into a larger plinth to accommodate the additional tonearm. 

Replacement tubes for my linestage and the phono cable should arrive tomorrow, so I can give the pod its first listen later this week.

Evan

[sunnydaze]

Sunnydazed,
I stand by what I say.  If you can find more than a few current production tables with cantilevered armboards, what are they?  Maybe I'm wrong.

Galibrier,  Wilson Benesch, Teres,  Avid,  Scheu / Eurolab and Anvil.  The first five are quite well known and very respected, the last is a new smaller company that is getting some good buzz. 

That's more than a few, and it's off the top of my head.  I'm sure there are many more.

Look, I'm not saying it's commonly used, nor am I arguing that one mount approach is superior.  That would be foolish and arrogant as I'm not equipped to do so.  I'm simply saying some very respected designs use it, and many folks think those designs sound awesome, so I'd not dismiss it out of hand, or make claims about inferiority that I seriously doubt you can support.
 

"But I've already said (several times) that my simple / crude but rock solid DIY mounts (both of them) sound at least as good as the factory mounting systems on both my tables."

What does this have to do with cantilevered armboards?   Just an opportunity to brag about your table?   Have you considered option #3 (tin ears), and your buds don't want to hurt your feelings?   

Neo, not bragging, you have completely missed my point.   You said:

I don't know about you, but I must have read about a million times someone saying, I thought it sounded good until I did such and such, but I had no idea.  There's always something better and my thing is to get the most out of things, to get them sounding like real music.

I may have misunderstood --  didn't realize you were referring to cantilever mount specifically.  Thought you were referring to my claim re:  performance of my DIY mounts.  Thought you were saying I may think they work fine, but would not realize their inferiority till I replaced it with something "better". So I countered that they sound at least as good as my stock mounts.   Hence, they are good.  Either that, or my stock mounts  (or ears) suck.  Logic.

(And no,  I don't hang with typical suck-up audiophiles that walk on eggshells and escew honest feedback if it's negative.  I'm not insecure or offended by opinions, so I solicit and encourage honest feedback from the local guys.  We all do.)

I'm not arguing traditional mount vs cantilever.  I have no idea which is better.  And I don't deny that a sound scientific approach is important in designing / building tables.  That would be dumb.  These aren't my points at all.  I really don't care about all that.

ACH wants to try an outboard mount.  I'm simply saying that sometimes the KISS principal can yield great results.  It's OK to just try things and see how they work out.  It's not always necessary to get lost in the techno-babble.  IMO there's often too much of that in this hobby, especially in the vinyl world, and it scares folks away.  Paralysis by analysis.  And this is all I'm saying, nothing more.  And as evidence I offer up my builds that, despite their simplicity and crudity and lack of rigorous science (apart from solidity and rigidity),  yield excellent sonic results.

Carry on........     

[neobop]

 
 

[sunnydaze]

Most Galibrier designs I've seen are either pods or platforms attached to the chassis.

Agreed, but they are still cantilever.  Your assertion of inferiority was about cantilever in general.

Teres is out of business. 

So what?!
Subtract Teres, and I've still shown you more than a few.  As per your request.

I don't know who those last 2 are, ...........

This doesn't erase them from my list.  It only makes you uninformed.

......but you're the one who missed the point.  Evan is not a turntable designer and his prototype cantilevered pod tipped over when he applied 1 lb. of pressure.  Sure, a cantilevered armboard can work, but it seems to me it's more difficult to get good results.  I'm also not alone in disliking this approach.  Some of these armboards have a single point of attachment and depending on implementation, would be more prone to independent vibration or movement.

I perfectly understand your point, trust me.

Agree 100% that it's difficult to implement properly.  I've said so, several times.  I've also said  (several times) it's why I didn't use it.  But it's not impossible, as evidenced by the great sounding setups -- both production and DIY -- that use it.

That you are not alone in your opinion is irrelevant and proves nothing.  Many opinions in audio.  Many well-respected designers use it, and produce awesome sounding tables.  I'll side with them, before you.  No offense.

We were specifically talking about cantilevered armboards.  That was the statement you objected to, and you start in with your table, KISS, how good your shit sounds, how I'm out of date, etc.  You don't use a cantilevered armboard, but you recommend it for DIY ?

I only objected to your assertion that cantilever is inherently inferior due to some springboard /vibration / noise issue.  That's intuition, not science.  But I actually see your point, it makes complete sense from a logical / intuitive pt of view.   

I said in my previous post that I can't strongly argue it one way or another.  I have neither the intellectual firepower nor scientific background to do so.  But the proof is in the pudding.  If it sounds good, it is good, regardless of your theories  (which you haven't supported, BTW).  I simply pointed this out.

I never said you were out of date.

I do use one.  It's stock on my Scheu / Eurolab table.  And it sounds excellent, thank you!   

Didn't do it for my outboard mount because it's too difficult to get right.  For all the reasons you point out:  topply, springy, vibration, etc.  This, and that I don't have the required tools and machine shop to do it right (ie. metal, heavy, dense, stiff, rigid, precise / tight tolerances, etc.).  I've already said this, several times.  But other folks can get it right.  Obviously. 

I recommended nothing specifically.  I've been very general.  I've merely suggested that you try, listen, and then adjust if necessary, and not get too bogged down in techo-babble.  Sometimes you get lucky, and it works.  Nothing to lose.

No need to be so defensive, Neo.  Beyond me why my simple, practical, non-scientific approach gets your panties in such a twist.       My view is just as legit as yours.

That you keep putting words in my mouth means you are missing the point, not me.

This is ridiculous.  Evan, I don't have time for this.  I won't be back to this thread.

I hope you do return.  I respect your obvious knowledge base, and always enjoy reading your very informative posts!         

~John

[ACHiPo]

John, Neo,
I hope you both stick around.  I'm posting my empirical learning, which can be somewhat embarrassing (like having a cantilever COG in the wrong place  ).  Hopefully others will get value, and having a couple experienced critics can significantly add to the value.

I'll continue to post as time permits.  I'd hoped to get the legs added to the cantilever this morning, but came down with a cold last night and am waiting for the fog to clear before handling sharp instruments.

Regards,
Evan

[neobop]

 "Tables like Delphi, Gyrodec have a steel or aluminum attachment to the chassis and a 3 or 4 bolt armboard.  I don't consider this the same." 


   

[sunnydaze]

It looks like I can't even withdraw from here without being ridiculed.  I was trying to deescalate this back and forth BS, but to no avail.  John, you're quoting out of context and changing the meaning of my posts.  That's considered bad form and dishonest. 

This is what started the BS.  Just because you found some examples of cantilevered armboards, doesn't mean you're right.  You might think you've proved your point, but you're wrong.  There are millions of tables out there with the arm mounted on the plinth.  This is common.  Mounting on a cantilevered armboard is much less common, or relatively uncommon.

I mentioned (above) that Evan is not a big company that can do vibration analysis, and you start talking about scientific studies and needing a seismometer.  You inferred that, but I never said that.  It's dishonest.  You're putting words in my mouth, things I never said.

In response to the viability of cantilevered armboards on production tables, I said, "Tables like Delphi, Gyrodec have a steel or aluminum attachment to the chassis and a 3 or 4 bolt armboard.  I don't consider this the same." 
It doesn't matter what I say you'll turn it around.  I don't know how I put words in your mouth, but you're the master of that.  You even quoted the joke about the possibility of your buds sparing your feelings, without quoting the next sentence about kidding. 

This is self-serving arrogance - the back and forth I was trying to avoid.  I don't want to spend my time with this.  It's that simple, and characterizing my withdrawal from this BS as a childish hissy fit, is nasty and offensive.  Take my ball and leave used to mean the game is over without a ball.  Not sure how this applies, but I don't care.
neo

OK Neo, you are right, I'm wrong.  There really aren't that many cantilevered mount systems.   And traditional mounts far outnumber them (not that I ever said the opposite).   There, you happy now?     

Is this your main point?  TBH, I'm clueless to what's setting you off.  But whatever it is, it's making you emotional way out of proportion with our discussion.

If you stop allowing emotion / defensiveness / stubbornness to cloud your comprehension, you'll see I posted the following:

(1)  they exist   [FACT]   (I never said they outnumber traditional.  Are you really gonna tell me with a straight face that your distress is over the fact that I used the word "common" in describing them?  Seriously?  You're kidding, right?   Laughable!)     

(2)  they are good [MY OPINION]  because they allow very quick / easy adjustment of mount distance  [FACT]

(3)  you assert  they are sonically inferior.  I challenge this.  My evidence is there are plenty (you OK with that word?) of well respected designers that employ it with great sonic results.   [DEDUCTIVE LOGIC,  ANECDOTAL]

(4)  I have never claimed which is superior, and I have said (repeatedly) that I can't prove superiority [FACT]

(5)  since it's a DIY project, just go ahead and try things.  Experiment.  Listen and adjust.  Don't get too wrapped in audiophile techno-babble.     [MY OPINION]

In a nutshell, this is what I've said.  What exactly is your issue?  My facts?  My opinions?

I don't need to be "right".   I'm not trying to "prove" anything.  I simply present some facts and opinions.  So what's your problem?  You can't deal with being challenged? 

(TBH, I don't even know what you refer to -- "right" about what?   "prove" what?)

You are dug in and making this about who's right.  I'm not interested in that.

As far as the "back and forth"....
If you don't want it, don't keep distorting my words, or putting them in my mouth.  Then I would not need to respond to set things straight.   Simple.

I mentioned (above) that Evan is not a big company that can do vibration analysis, and you start talking about scientific studies and needing a seismometer.  You inferred that, but I never said that.  It's dishonest.  You're putting words in my mouth, things I never said.

You are being too literal!  Any fair-minded person understands exactly what I was getting at.  Tongue-in-cheek hyperbole to make a point.  No need to be pedantic and argumentative.

That point being:  he's a just a regular joe with a regular basement shop (I assume), so he doesn't need to engage in any scientific analysis before slapping a DIY mount on his table.  This was in response to you getting all deep and serious about how his approach was flawed and that scientific studies would show it. 

Your exact statement:

The cantilever approach really isn't that common and I never liked it.  You're not a company like Micro Seiki or VPI that can do vibrational analysis and play around with it.  It will probably work.  Good luck with that.

You implied:   it's not common, therefore its inferior.  The approach is flawed, and vibrational analysis is probably a prerequisite to getting good results.  And a parting sarcastic dig with "good luck with that". (my interpretation of your words.  If I'm wrong ,sorry, honest mistake)

I replied:   just go ahead and try it, see how it works, no scientific study required. (paraphrased)

Carry on......

[neobop]

See, that's what I mean.  This shit could go on forever.  You see things your way and I see them my way. 

1) You said cantilevered armboards are common.  That is incorrect.

2) They only allow easy adjustment of mounting distance if they swivel on a permanent mount.

3) I never said they were sonically inferior and I specifically exempted some.  I still don't think they're a good idea for DIY.

4) Who cares?  I never said you made such claims.

5) My issue is you're quoting out of context and changing the meaning of my posts.  I already spelled it out in my last post.  Now I'm being characterized as emotional way out of proportion, defensive, stubborn, and with clouded comprehension.  None of that is true.  I know exactly what you're talking about and I don't care, except I'm trying to help Evan. 

"And we were obviously on different playgrounds.  It means someone has thrown an immature temper tantrum, and spites his playmates by taking his ball and leaving, so they can no longer play.  It's about being a spiteful drama queen."

I don't see how this is different from what I said, except now I'm a drama queen?  Do you have reading comprehension problems? 
I consider this, and your characterizations of me, a personal attack. 

[sunnydaze]

Nipped what in the bud?  Free respectful speech?  Opinions you don't like?   People you don't like?

(1)  you are correct , I said they were "common".  You were seriously upset at that.  No idea why.  Maybe your few is my many?  Big deal, get over it!

(2)  you are correct again, and it is exactly the build that Evan is considering.  So I made my statement in that context.  Sincere apologies if my wording doesn't meet your standards of exacting precision.

(3)  sonically inferior is a logical inference, based on your points about vibration, rigidity, springboard, etc. , and how vibration analysis is suggested.   Also, logically inferred from you constantly stating that traditional mounts are in majority.  If you don't imply this, then your intended meaning is beyond me.  If my read is wrong, again apologies.

And I don't think they are good for DIY either.  Said so several times and gave reasons.  Wouldn't do it myself.  So what's the problem?

(4)  you keep insisting (without sufficient clarity) that I'm trying to be "right" and "prove" something.  Not sure what you're on about, but I thought maybe you were referring to this.

(5)  I'm not misquoting you, or distorting anything.  And yes, I do believe you are behaving all those ways. Not a personal attack.  Description of how I see you acting on here.  You distort what I say, take umbrage with the most picayune things like the words I choose to use (control much?), and get all huffy, pissed off and indignant simply because we disagree (and barely, at that!). 

And if you didn't care you wouldn't be so agitated by my posts, and keep posting.

You make much ado about nothing, Neo.  Mountains outta molehills.

The playground thing?  You didn't understand what I was saying.  So I explained myself.  And yes, to me, that is how you came across.  My opinion.  I'd be willing to bet many on here read it the same way.  You don't like it, sorry.

[GentleBender]

I find this project interesting and look forward to seeing the finished results. Even if the results are not up to expectations the shared learning experience is awesome.

[sunnydaze]

Agreed Gentle.  This is played out and not productive.

I will not respond to any further Neo outbursts aimed at me.

[ACHiPo]

This is getting out of hand. I believe you both should go into your profile and put the other party in your ignore list. Nothing to accomplish here except further hostility. I am not taking sides, but this is not helpful to the OP in setting up his TT. 

Thanks GB.  I've been ignoring the heated discussion and hoping things would get back to a productive discourse by sticking to progress reports.  Guess I'll cool posting for a bit.  My tonearm cable arrived, and the *&!~#%@ DIN connector is the wrong orientation.  Waiting for instructions from the vendor on whether I can open it up or I need to send it back, so I'm on the sidelines for a few days anyway.

[sunnydaze]

Sorry Evan,  should have warned you about that.   I've gotten 90 degree DINs in the past that positioned the cable such that it didn't  clear or exit properly due to obstructions.  Very annoying.   Learned from experience.   Now I always ask about DIN orientation if cable is used,  and specify it if buying new.

Often not an issue with straight DIN,  so if you can get away with one of those (ie.  there's enough height where it exits and cable is flexible enough) you're better off with it.

[ACHiPo]

I knew about the orientation difference, but my configuration seemed to be the "standard", so I forgot to ask when I found the right cable in stock.  No problem--it's off in FedEx tomorrow and will hopefully be back in a week, which will give me time to get the pod sorted. 

The 90 degree connector is definitely a better fit for my situation.

[sunnydaze]

What cable is it?

[ACHiPo]

What cable is it?

Darwin Truth II to match my ICs.

[sunnydaze]

Pricey!   

Are they stiff, hard to bend / route?

[neobop]

Agreed Gentle.  This is played out and not productive.

I will not respond to any further Neo outbursts aimed at me.

Evan,
I've withheld information from this "discussion" - too busy playing defense and this thread has become nasty for me.  No big deal.  You had no problem with PMs before.  You know where you can find me if you have a question.

The fact of the matter is, the vast majority of mechanical  energy from the cantilever is not converted into electricity.  Where does it go?  That's what you're dealing with and it can make the difference between good and great.
neo

[sunnydaze]

Does this mean I can post something without being quoted out of context, attributed inferences I never made, assigned emotions I haven't experience (at least in this context), and not be the recipient of name calling and patronizing lies?  If you say I made a statement I did not make, that's a lie, whether intentional or not. 

There's nothing respectful about your speech.  You're insulting, mean-spirited and nasty. You're just a guy with a Scheu who thinks his shit sounds good and you're defending it.  I don't believe you.  Looks like another POS belt drive with a Jasmine motor and not enough torque. 

Evan,
I've withheld information from this "discussion" - too busy playing defense and this thread has become nasty for me.  No big deal.  You had no problem with PMs before.  You know where you can find me if you have a question.

The fact of the matter is, the vast majority of mechanical  energy from the cantilever is not converted into electricity.  Where does it go?  That's what you're dealing with and it can make the difference between good and great.
neo

You can rant and rave all you want Neo.  I've been quite measured and fair in my posts.  I'm just gonna say I've been reading your posts for a long time and my take is that you are an elitist know it all snob married to your slide rule and scientific precision who simply doesn't like my working man seat of the pants schlub approach.  You are royalty,  I'm proletariat rabble.  And should the unworthy and unwashed challenge the king, he will reap his sword!  I've obviously rankled your raw superior nerve, God knows why, but rant away.  You come across like a petulant child.

We'll let the board decide who's hurling insults and engaging in personal attacks.

This is my last direct reply to you.  Go ahead and get the last word.  You obviously need to.

PS:   it's a Eurolab, not a Scheu       And I've never defended it.  Not once.  That's you assigning motivation to my posts.   I've simply said the outboard mount I built works great, and based on this I think Evan should just go ahead with his design and see how it sounds, without excessive concern with scientific analysis.  Like Nike, just do it!  That's all.  Get your facts straight, else you look the fool.

(oh, previously I did say that its stock cantilever mount sounds fine IMO.  If you wanna argue that's a blind and excessive defense of my gear, have at it.  But no fair-minded person will get that impression from my posts)

PPS:   Your system page is blank.  Why not post it so everyone can see what kindof POS you are runnning?   

[neobop]

You said you wouldn't respond.  Guess I should have known better.