[ACHiPo]

I've been squatting on GentleBender's thread on a VPI vs. Thorens decision he's trying to make.  Now that I've decided (for now) that I do not want a second deck, I'm in search for a suitable tonearm to use as an "outrigger" on my WTT Reference.

Criteria:
High-ish effective mass (>15)
<$1500
Excellent bearing surfaces
VTA adjustment

Sooooo I was in Portland today on business (shhhh I was on a lunch break--really!) and stopped by my old buddies at Echo Audio to get their ideas on adding a second arm for a Miyajima Zero (or similar) mono cart.  Well Echo Audio was one of the first dealers to pick up a clever low-cost turntable from Tri Art, Pebbles.  Pebbles is a $1500 entry-level turntable with a bamboo plinth, platter, and...wait for it...tonearm.  Yes, they make a cool tonearm of laminated bamboo.  Reviews are positive, but I have not heard it yet.  What caught my eye was their new offering, Bam Bam (you see the theme?), which is slightly more refined, but still bamboo.  Bam Bam comes in a 12" arm with an effective mass of 19, which should work nicely for the Zero or Premiere, as well as be fairly straight forward to implement as an outrigger on my WTT.

Oh and it's $675.

I'd like your thoughts.  Here's the link to the Tri Art website:
http://www.triartaudio.com/
And the arm:
http://www.triartaudio.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/12-inch-bam-arm.jpg
And reviews:
http://www.triartaudio.com/?page_id=806


I'm also investigating the Thomas Schick 12" arm which looks interesting, and is priced at $1500.

[SteveFord]

Don't forget this one:
http://www.welltemperedlab.net/welltemperedlab/products/ltdtonearm/

[sunnydaze]

The 10 and 12 inch Jelco arms are on the heavy side in the 20g range.   Both priced well below 1000 bux new.   Silicone damping at the pivot if you need it.  Removeable headshell for easy cartridge swapping.   Performance reaches way beyond its price. Worth looking into.

[ACHiPo]

Don't forget this one:
http://www.welltemperedlab.net/welltemperedlab/products/ltdtonearm/

Steve,
I don't think the effective mass of the WT arm would work well with a low compliance mono cartridge?
AC

[ACHiPo]

The 10 and 12 inch Jelco arms are on the heavy side in the 20g range.   Both priced well below 1000 bux new.   Silicone damping at the pivot if you need it.  Removeable headshell for easy cartridge swapping.   Performance reaches way beyond its price. Worth looking into.

Sunny,
The 12" 750 is on my list, but I thought the effective mass was ~11 - 13g, although with cartridge it gets close to 20g?  Also, by the time a headshell and wiring is added the price sneaks above $1k.

Thanks.
AC

[neobop]

Sunny,
The 12" 750 is on my list, but I thought the effective mass was ~11 - 13g, although with cartridge it gets close to 20g?  Also, by the time a headshell and wiring is added the price sneaks above $1k.

No, that's marketing BS from Jelco sales mgr.  It comes with a headshell like the Sumiko, which weighs 12g.  How could the eff mass be < the shell weight?
All the current Jelco arms have around 20g eff mass.  The 12" 750L goes for around $700 shell included.  Cable might be separate.

I think the vintage NOS Pioneer Exclusive I linked to on the other thread, is probably a better arm for $600.  There's a 12" JVC/Victor UA7082 on fleabey for $689.  Those three are your best options IMO.
neo

[ACHiPo]

Neo,
Thanks yet again for your guidance as I dive head-first down the rabbit hole!

I also inquired (and got a quick response) about the Thomas Schick arm, which with headshell (and favorable exchange rate) comes in at about $1600 delivered, or 2x the ones you linked to (which I'd checked out a few days ago, but forgot about and will check out again).  Rave reviews from Art Dudley, et al, who I've had good luck with in the past.


Looks like I have a few good choices for <$1k.

AC

[ACHiPo]

Just checked out the Pioneer Exclusive and it looks damn near perfect at first blush.  Need to do a bit more research, but for the price appears superior to even the Jelco.  I'll need to pick up a head shell and figure out cabling, but the way the Darwin Truth interconnects that I'm demoing are sounding, that could be an easy choice.

[sunnydaze]

Neo is right about the Jelco.  I own the 750E (10 inch) so I've done much online research.  For some reason, there's tons of confusion re: the effective mass.  The weight of opinion (including input from both Jelco and/or maybe the NA distributor??) is that it's around 20g.  That includes the headshell......the EM spec always includes it.

Google on "jelco 750 effective mass" and you'll find all the info, and misinformation.  The general consensus is that it works very well with lower cu carts, which also suggests it's a heavier arm.  In any event, the silicone dampening at the pivot can sometimes help with cart mismatches and RF issues.

Headshell is included in the price, but you would need to buy a phono cable.  No biggie, as there are plenty of good ones for reasonable green.  I use a Morrow PH4, sounds great.  I believe the North American Jelco distributor / dealer also offers a few different cable options ($200 to $400 range) and would probably discount a package deal if you were to buy new from him.  There's plenty of them in circulation, so I'd buy used at a heavy discount...which is exactly what I did!     

[sunnydaze]

Wow.......that Pioneer is some hunka metal!   Really built!       

If build quality translates into sound, I'd snatch that thing up!
But who knows?        The web seems thin on info.

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649225775-pioneer-exclusive-tonearm-pa70-trio-x3/

[ACHiPo]

Wow.......that Pioneer is some hunka metal!   Really built!       

If build quality translates into sound, I'd snatch that thing up!
But who knows?        The web seems thin on info.

http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649225775-pioneer-exclusive-tonearm-pa70-trio-x3/

...and the sparse information that does exist is seems to be poorly translated Japanese.  I have an email into the seller.

[sunnydaze]

...and the sparse information that does exist is seems to be poorly translated Japanese.  I have an email into the seller.

For less than USD 500 it may be worth the risk!?   I mean, really........how much can you lose on resell if it's not simpatico?      

I did a quick check on E Bay completed items for this arm, and recently a few of these went for $850 obo.  An offer was accepted, but we obviously can't see the amount.  The shipping from Japan was $85.  So given all this, that price on CAM seems quite reasonable.

I typically shy away from vintage analog gear because I fear worn or broken or missing parts.  I'm really not the kinda DIY guy that wants to spend time / effort / money going down that rabbit hole.  Not to mention all the frustration involved.  But if I know it's reliably refurbished or NOS unused,  my propensity to buy grows.

If I didn't already have 4 arms, and wasn't in the middle of trying to sell all my other xtra gear, I'd probably buy one myself.  Just out of curiousity, and the opportunity to (maybe?) get top shelf sound at a bottom shelf price.  Besides, having that nice vintage jewelry sitting on my table would be sweet!     

[ACHiPo]

Agreed.  Hoping it works out.

[neobop]

The Pioneer is awesome - this is for a Japanese statement table.  It has fluid damping around the bearings and +/- 3mm VTA OTF with a special tool that fits into those holes at the base.  With the right size rod,  it would take a few minutes to make such a tool. 
http://audio-database.com/PIONEER-EXCLUSIVE/player/pl-70-e.html

Here's the Victor UA7082 - a comparable arm w/o the fluid damping, but with a stellar reputation:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321881995735?rmvSB=true
This, and the 7045 were paired with the TT81 and TT101, TOTL from JVC/Victor. 

I think the Pioneer comes w/o headshell so the price is about the same except for the Canadian dollar.  $600 CAD = $458.  This is a no-brainer for me.  I just bought a 7045, but I'm seriously tempted.  Not many people are well versed in vintage arms, and I suspect most are looking for lower mass. 
neo

[ACHiPo]

I've sent the seller a note.  I'm definitely pulling the trigger on this arm if the seller's not a flake (he doesn't appear to be from the feedback, and he's already sold one of the arms in early October).  I hadn't noticed until you mentioned it that the price is CAD, which really makes it a no-brainer!

I've got a nice heavy block of cocobolo as well as lots of curly maple that could make a nice outrigger base.  I'm thinking that a bit of lead shot in a cavity and some of Herbie's grunge buster material might be just the ticket to make sure it doesn't get inadvertently moved.  I could also just copy Sunny's approach and clamp the sucker down.

Ok, so assuming the tonearm comes through, any suggestions for headshells (I'd like to pick up at least couple to take advantage of being able to swap cartridges easily)?

Any other recommendations on tonearm cables (Sunny, thanks for your suggestions--I'll check them out)?  Not sure I want to drop as much on a tone arm cable as I'll spend for the cartridge.

[ACHiPo]

Hmm the flake meter is starting to rise.  No response from the seller. 

 May have to check out that Victor arm.

[neobop]

This is legit.  Somebody at Karma already checked one out.   He didn't buy it probably because he's a dumb ass.  The ad is also on US Audiomart.  Maybe seller wants $600 US?  Give the seller a chance to respond.  Sometimes I don't check my email for nearly a week.  If he's like me.....
Here's some more info:
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=vinyl&m=928269&VT=T

I don't know what grunge buster is, but your mount needs to be rigid, and more mass is generally better.  Lead is super at slowing vibrations - good idea.  Lead + sand works too.

A few years back I bought an Ultimate tonearm cable (also Canadian) - around $100.  It's 1/2 pure silver and 1/2 OFC copper.  I took a chance and it turned out to be a nice cable, although it took forever to break in.   I also have a VDH 501 silver cable from an SME V.  I cut it down to about a foot and used the rest to wire the inside of my AHT phono stage.  I'm sure there are plenty of cables on the net, but phono stuff is about 100% more $ than it was 5 years ago.

The removable headshell allows you to adjust the mass somewhat, and tune the sound.  Many quality arms w/removable shell have 2 tiny screws behind the locking collet on the bottom of the armtube.   Often these can be used to adjust azimuth.  This is a feature people often don't know they have, but it depends on the arm.  This is a good value w/adjustable azimuth on a 12g shell:
http://www.lpgear.com/product/LPGZHEAD.html

The downside of removable shells - the boundary tends to reflect vibrations back to the cart instead of down the arm.  The "perfect" shell for a particular cart/arm requires a bit of alchemy.  Wood shells are good dampers.  Some metal shells are light, 7g and up.  Check these out:
http://www.joynetmall.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=60_381&page=1

The Ortofon LH8000 looks nice and check out the Yamamotos on page 2.   Ebony is a great mix of rigidity and damping:
http://www.joynetmall.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=60_381&product_id=1594

I think this is one of those opportunities to pick up something of extreme value, NOS.  If this arm was being made today, it would be around $5K, no BS.
The 7082 actually has a better reputation than the Pioneer, maybe because it's more well known.  I think either one will knock your socks off with the Zero.
neo

[ACHiPo]

Flake meter dropping fast.  Seller seems solid.  Should have the total with shipping later today.

[ACHiPo]

I don't know what grunge buster is, but your mount needs to be rigid, and more mass is generally better.  Lead is super at slowing vibrations - good idea.  Lead + sand works too.

Neo,
Here's a link to the Herbie's Audio Lab site. 

http://herbiesaudiolab.net/gb.htm

Grungebusters are made from a viscoelastomer.  They are similar to Sorbothane in their properties, but don't have the sticking/residue.  They're also higher durometer than the Sorbothane I've messed with in the past.  I used Grungebuster dots between the shelves of my rack and the frame per Steve's (Herbie's owner) recommendation.  Not sure if it's pride in a completed project that turned out well, or the Grungebusters, or the 300 lbs of rock maple, but my system sounds much better on the rack than it did on the console table it replaced.  I also used their elastomeric sliders (basically the viscoelastomer attached to HDPE like is used to move furniture over carpet).

My thought is to use thin Grungebuster dots on the base of the cocobolo block.  It would provide translational stability (keep the block from sliding if bumped) and mimic the firm elastomeric suspension of the WTT plinth.  The cocobolo block is about 4 lbs (it's dense!), and the tonearm is ~3 lbs.  If I fill the block with lead/sand, I can probably increase it's weight to maybe 6 lbs, making the whole assembly close to 10 lbs.  The other option is just to clamp it to the top shelf of the rack.  I could bolt it down, but I'd just as soon not drill a hole in that purdy slab of maple.

AC

[ACHiPo]

The removable headshell allows you to adjust the mass somewhat, and tune the sound.  Many quality arms w/removable shell have 2 tiny screws behind the locking collet on the bottom of the armtube.   Often these can be used to adjust azimuth.  This is a feature people often don't know they have, but it depends on the arm.  This is a good value w/adjustable azimuth on a 12g shell:
http://www.lpgear.com/product/LPGZHEAD.html

This is exactly what I was looking for, and the price seems decent.  Definitely like the azimuth adjustment capability (a necessity for the WTT's dished platter)

The downside of removable shells - the boundary tends to reflect vibrations back to the cart instead of down the arm.  The "perfect" shell for a particular cart/arm requires a bit of alchemy.  Wood shells are good dampers.  Some metal shells are light, 7g and up.  Check these out:
http://www.joynetmall.com/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=60_381&page=1

The Ortofon LH8000 looks nice and check out the Yamamotos on page 2.   Ebony is a great mix of rigidity and damping:
http://www.joynetmall.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=60_381&product_id=1594

I found the Yamamotos last night as well.  I think I'll start with a couple of the LP Gear 'shells, though.

I think this is one of those opportunities to pick up something of extreme value, NOS.  If this arm was being made today, it would be around $5K, no BS.
The 7082 actually has a better reputation than the Pioneer, maybe because it's more well known.  I think either one will knock your socks off with the Zero.
neo

Absolutely agree!