VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?

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warnerwh

VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #40 on: 11 Jul 2004, 05:55 am »
First due to one of your own customers I rarely come to this forum anymore and I was seriously considering the Alpha's. Second, after reading you saying some qualities of the VMPS speakers are worse than white van speakers among other things I definitely would never buy your speakers. Reasons being I'm on my second pair of VMPS speakers. Both times they proved to sound outstanding for the money.  Another reason is you obviously have an inferiority complex when it comes to your direct competition, or so is my opinion.  Cabinet quality and bracing could be better. Sound quality per dollar is excellent. Yes there's room for improvements, but what you get for the money is excellent and extremely competitive.  And improvements are easy to do. No I'm no VMPS worshipper as I'm looking at Von Schweikerts and Rick Craig's offerings as I'm not totally happy with the sound of the RM 40's that I heard.  The Alpha's were still on the backburner in my mind but you crossed a line that I don't believe you should have on your website.

This is a direct quote from Danny on his website:
"Remember a change of only 3db represents a change that is either half as loud or twice as loud depending on if it is a change up or down."
Seems to me you have information that is not always accurate.

tkp

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VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #41 on: 11 Jul 2004, 05:57 am »
had a chance to look at what Danny posted at his website regarding the 626R.  Wading through the comments and pictures, I do see a few points that was not very clear to me:

a)  Is there any thing wrong with using the dry wall screw to mount the woofers beside they might not look too nice?  If nothing else I do think the drywall screw is actually a much better choice than regular screw because they would bite into the wood better.  I still remembered it was very tought for me to remove a woofer from a friend's RM40 because the drywall screws pretty much nailed the woofer to the cabinet.

b)  The parts use in the crossover, while not the best, not really the cheapest kind as indicated.  I had a few speakers in the past that used electrolytic cap in the crossover (yikes !!).  I still remembered evaluating a bunch of some what expensive caps (Hovland, Infinity, Kimber, etc..) about five years ago for my tube preamp.  To much of my suprised, the winner was a low cost bipolar Bennic caps (cost about $ 2.00 each versus $ 40.00 each for Hovland and Infinity brand).

c)  I used to own a pair of 626R and just heard them again couple nights ago at a friend's house, and I did not recall any cabinet vibration at all.  Years ago, I owned a pair of $ 2500.00 monitor audio speakers which vibrate excessively at high volume.  I would say the 626R is at least a couple knotches above the Monitor Audio from lack of cabinet vibration stand point.  I have not seen any white van speakers so maybe the white van speaker cabinet is as good or better than the monitor audio speakers.  My pair of 626R had the sound coat option so this might explain why there were very little if any vibration on my pair?


d)  " The odd looking Green tag on the from of the planar mid with a couple of bolts sticking out from it."  I did not quite understand the reason for this comments but I do know why the bolts sticking out of the printed circuit board (the odd looking green tag).  This was done to fix the intermittent mechanical contacts on the ribbon pannels due to the poor mechanical contact caused by the original punch rivets.  It does not look as nice as the rivet but it does works a lot better.  

After I read the infor at Danny website, I still don't know what is wrong with the 626R in term of sound when compare to what speakers?  

Most of the comments were on the fit and look of the speakers and the part use in the crossover.   Prior to MS cabinet, it was no secret that VMPS speakers don't look good.  I wish the response graphs of speakers would indicate how any speakers sound in my house because I could just buy audio gear based on graphs and specs and not have to check them out in person.  

Once again, I don't see any thing wrong with Danny offering mod for any speakers.  But before putting out comments regarding how bad the stock speakers was built/look, I surely hope there are data to show that people prefered the sound of the modded speaker over the stock one in a real listenning environment.  After all, a speaker looks good, build with good part, and measure good in a particular test setup, but sound bad in my house does not do me any good.

Rob Babcock

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VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #42 on: 11 Jul 2004, 06:03 am »
I know, warnerwh.  You could start a similar thread in the VMPS forum to try to stir up some shite.

Oh, wait.  I see you got it covered. :roll:

warnerwh

VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #43 on: 11 Jul 2004, 06:09 am »
It appears to me someone else is the one who started stirring things up.  Offering a mod is one thing but dissecting and slamming the rest of the speaker on his website is something else altogether.  This is nothing more than a slam campaign. Or please explain why all the other attributes of the speakers are gone into detail then criticized.  Thanks

lonewolfny42

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VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #44 on: 11 Jul 2004, 06:21 am »

JohnR

VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #45 on: 11 Jul 2004, 06:23 am »
As Danny has explained, both here (I believe, without going back and looking for it) and in the Manufacturer's Forum, that information was intended only for people interested in a new crossover, so that they can get some idea of what they are getting. A before and after. He wrote what he thought, but didn't broadcast it. Someone ("maxwell") chose to anonymously post the information on AA and the Madisound board.

JohnR

VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #46 on: 11 Jul 2004, 06:24 am »
Quote from: lonewolfny42
A question of timing... http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=11497  :?


Some of you guys never give up  :roll:  :roll:

suits_me

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VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #47 on: 11 Jul 2004, 07:20 am »
>He wrote what he thought, but didn't broadcast it. Someone ("maxwell") chose to anonymously post the information on AA and the Madisound board.

This strikes me as hilarious. Danny puts something on his web site in this allegedly discreet way - he pointedly says he wouldn't want to embarrass Brian Cheney, a loaded phrasing - but is taken by surprise when the material appears on AA, in clumsily abridged form? I think it's disingenuous, or else Danny isn't real sharp.

And the passive aggressive apologizing guy sounds like a real car wreck in so many ways. A classic Freudianism from both Danny and him: "I don't mean to upset you, but...."

Oh, it's hostile all right, but again, I'm not commenting on any technical matters. And there's nothing intrinsically wrong with modding equipment.

JohnR

VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #48 on: 11 Jul 2004, 07:28 am »
Suit yourself.

It does seem, though, that a lot of VMPS owners turn into crying whiners when even a perceived criticism comes from anywhere but Big B. Usually, people like options.

rosconey

VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #49 on: 11 Jul 2004, 10:44 am »
its danny's forum-HE CAN SAY WHAT EVER HE WANTS-
yes he wont be going to any vmps christmas parties for awhile and i doubt if he will even recieve a xmas card, but its his forum so -HE CAN SAY WHAT HE WANTS-
if the vmps guys dont want to hear about a better crossover (to danny's ears)then dont read about it.and i doubt he did this only because big b is on vacation, dont seem like his style.
and for the record i'm not a customer , most likely never will be because i like the selahaudio sound so i wont be looking else where ( also very happy with what i have now).

its a new week so lets put a end to this pissing match. :nono:

Woodsea

VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #50 on: 11 Jul 2004, 11:32 am »
You can make up for your wrong doings by voting ABB 8)
Have a great day
-Eric
P.S. forget the first sentence...vote how you decide it is a free country to mod or vote as you will.  
P.S.S does either John have better looking daughters than G.W.?  That is a relevant thought process in the voting realm :dance:

DFaulds

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VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #51 on: 11 Jul 2004, 11:57 am »
I'm surprised that no one has comented on BC's posted costs for RM2 parts.  Is there anyone who really believes that Brian paid $166 for a pair of Monsoon panels from PC speakers?  If that's true, then I guess we now know why Monsoon is out of business, because even when they were in business you could buy a set of their PC speakers with 2 panels, powered sub and very profesional packaginfg for less than $166 from many retailers.

$70 for the spiral tweeters seems a bit high as well. Nearly identical spiral ribbons can be bought from the Taiwan based Hi Box in quantities of 1,000 for $4.50 per unit.  While they may not be the exact ones that Brian used, they are very nice units and it's unlikely that his source could have charged much more and stayed in Business.

And based on these claimed costs, Brian is probably actually losing money on the kit version of the RM2, which either makes me wonder how he has stayed in business for 25 years, or it makes these claimed costs seem a bit overstated.

EProvenzano

VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #52 on: 11 Jul 2004, 02:46 pm »
Hi Danny,

I too was/am considering purchasing your Alpha LS.....

Well if the 626R mod goes well and you receive some excellent reviews because of it....I'll take 2 pairs of Alphas  :lol:

Good luck!
EP

Marbles

VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #53 on: 11 Jul 2004, 02:55 pm »
Danny,

you make these statements,

Quote
"Variable L-pads look like they are from Solen.

The one on the left is a LP15W8 and is $2.03 each ordered in singles.

The one on the right is a LP100W8 and is $4.67 each ordered in singles.

Prices drop on 100 quantity packs.

I guess they are okay for car audio, but I would never use them in a speaker, especially not a high end speaker. Their effect on the signal is detrimental in more ways than one. Bad, bad, bad..."



Just curious, since I like having the adjustability that these variable L-pads  
 provide, can you recommend any others that you feel are better?

Thanks

John Casler

VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #54 on: 11 Jul 2004, 03:32 pm »
Quote from: DFaulds
I'm surprised that no one has comented on BC's posted costs for RM2 parts.  Is there anyone who really believes that Brian paid $166 for a pair of Monsoon panels from PC speakers?  If that's true, then I guess we now know why Monsoon is out of business, because even when they were in business you could buy a set of their PC speakers with 2 panels, powered sub and very profesional packaginfg for less than $166 from many retailers.

$70 for the spiral tweeters seems a bit high as well. Nearly identical spir ...


Purely for informational purposes:

The RM2 has "two pair" of neopanels (total 4 panels) and "two pair" of the spiral tweeters. (also for a total of 4)

Andrikos

VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #55 on: 11 Jul 2004, 04:10 pm »
I don't see anything wrong with this thread.
How many times have we seen threads in the VMPS forum about tweaking/and or improving VMPS speakers?
Even many of them were started by Cheney himself or John Casler for God's sakes!
Remember all the threads about RM40 bracing or using  watered down Elemer's glue to stiffen the paper cone PRs?
These were all threads started by Brian Cheney.
To imply that Danny is doing something wrong by fixing the crossover network is going a bit too far IMHO.
When we see official curves/responses for VMPS, then we can sit down and compare them to Danny's.
For the time being this is all we have...

jackman

VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #56 on: 11 Jul 2004, 04:15 pm »
Quote
Putting the offer to mod the VMPS 626R into context paints a different picture than one of a cocky modder who wants to make money by promoting improvements to other people's designs. The public disagreements between Mr. Cheney and Mr. Ritchie constitute motivation for Mr. Ritchie to use the context of modding to disparage and insult the products of Mr. Cheney. The fact that he has disparaged the speakers without having even built and implemented a crossover that he feels improves the product further demonstrates that Mr. Ritchie is not behaving according to some unwritten code of modder's conduct, but that he is irresponsibly trashing a disliked competitor and then hiding behind the guise of just doing his job.


How is Danny's offer to "Mod" this speaker any different than the other modders out there (Steve Nugent, Dan Wright, Alex P., Reference Audio Mods, etc.) offering to modify well known and well respected gear?    How the heck (edited post) can you call a guy cocky when he didn't even originally post the link on his site (it was offered to people privately) and didn't post any subjective comments publically?   I don't think there is anything wrong with Danny's post.  I think the main reason you are a bit miffed has more to do with WHAT he offered to improve than HOW his offer was made.  If he offered the same "improvement" to a commercial brand like Bose, Polk or B&W, I doubt anyone would have called him "cocky".  

Why not wait until someone who you feel is objective actually does a comparison between Danny's new crossover and the old one?  I know I'd like to hear one!

J

Edited to remove personal attack...

tkp

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VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #57 on: 11 Jul 2004, 04:33 pm »
Quote from: jackman
How is Danny's offer to "Mod" this speaker any different than the other modders out there (Steve Nugent, Dan Wright, Alex P., Reference Audio Mods, etc.) offering to modify well known and well respected gear?    How the fuck can you call a guy cocky when he didn't even originally post the link on his site (it was offered to people privately) and didn't post any subjective comments publically?   I don't think there is anything wrong with Danny's post.  I think the main reason you are a bit miffed has more to ...


Jman,

I would hope that we don't have to use the "F" word while discussing things.  

I was one of the few VMPS owners that actually see some good in what Danny was trying to do at first.  However, after I read the information at Dany website, I went away with mixed feeling.  There is nothing wrong with offering mod to any speakers because any thing can be improved (even with GR Research speakers) by putting more money into it.  In this case, Danny was doing the mod for a VMPS customer who wants more out of his 626R.  However, there were no reasons to say:

a)  The speaker cabinet is as bad as the white van speaker.  I don't know whether or not this is true because I have not seen white van speakers but I do know that the cabinet of the 626R I had, had very little vibration when played at high volume.

b)  The parts used in the crossover was the cheapest of their kind.  I know this is not true.

c)  Commenting on the ribbon pannel PCB and unsightly screw end exposure without understanding the reason why they were that way.

I would take Danny report a lot more seriously if he kept his comments neutral versus in this case saying thing like what I stated above.

zybar

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VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #58 on: 11 Jul 2004, 04:38 pm »
Jackman,

After rereading the post on Danny's website, the tone is different from the other modders out there.  Steve at Empirical isn't calling the Electrocompaniet ECD-1 the equivalent of "White Van" speakers.

Can Danny improve the 626's?  Very possible.

Should he be using some of the phrases and tones?  I think not.

Many of the issues Danny rasied have been rasied by others.  Some have been addresed by VMPS and some maybe aren't real issues.

I do agree with you in that I would love to hear the speakers before and after.

I know that changing things on my RM 40's have made them better (i.e. changing the stuffing in the midrange and adding foam to the baffle).

George

jackman

VMPS 626R upgrade anyone?
« Reply #59 on: 11 Jul 2004, 04:59 pm »
Hi guys, I edited the profanity out of my post.  Very sorry if I offended anyone.  A couple points:
Quote
a) The speaker cabinet is as bad as the white van speaker. I don't know whether or not this is true because I have not seen white van speakers but I do know that the cabinet of the 626R I had, had very little vibration when played at high volume.

 
* I believe Danny compared the build quality of the cabinets to white van speakers.  Maybe he was a bit over the top but I have heard from many people (including VMPS owners) that the cabinet quality is not the best.  Not an issue any more because they have joined forces with Mark Schifter and Co., people who absolutely KNOW how to make great cabinets.  I'm confident the new cabinets will be very good.

Quote
b) The parts used in the crossover was the cheapest of their kind. I know this is not true.


I'm not going back to look at Danny's exact language but he posted the estimated prices of the crossover components used in the speakers.  I guess the part that bothered me most was the caps that were not even matched to within one decimal.  Coming from a guy who says he can hear the difference in caps measured to within three decimals in his upgrade this seemed a bit strange.  

Quote
c) Commenting on the ribbon pannel PCB and unsightly screw end exposure without understanding the reason why they were that way.
 

Does he need to know WHY something is done a certain way to call it unsightly?  This is a minor point and probably not one that can be corrected anyway.  

Zybar, I don't think he called these "White Van Speakers".   I believe he compared the construction to that of white van speakers.  White Van Speakers cannot be fixed or modded.  I could understand, however, why someone who owns these would be insulted by that remark.  

I do not own speakers from VMPS or GR Research.  I have heard speakers from both companies and feel they both offer a great value and excellent alternative to the commercial offerings in their respective categories.  I hope they both continue to provide great products and service...and improvements.  Even if it means one company improves the products of the other!

Jack

PS - sorry again for the profanity.  Will try my best to prevent in the future.