[Rob Babcock]

Gentlemen, gentlemen.

First of all speaker modifications is my business and what I have been doing for years.

I have modified too many commercial speakers for me to remember but my guess at this point would be that the number is approaching 100.

Getting into the mod business?  I don't mean this to be sound harsh, hmen, but did you even read Danny's reply?  He's been doing it for many years.  

Danny, roughly how much do you charge for X-over mods/redesigns?

[tinear99]

I see nothing wrong with what Danny is doing, Rick Craig, Ric at EVS, Stan Warren, Alex Paychev, among dozens of others do the same thing modding other products. Knowing Danny's work, I wouldn't be surprised that he could bring the best out of any speaker. Been proven many times in the past.

BTW, Dennis Murphy's website has the measurements of the RM1. If the 626r measures like the RM1, then Danny's right on the money.

Some people need to lighten up a bit. Jeez, it is only a speaker and a guy can make it sound better, what's the big deal? Some people need to quit worrying about their "product worship" and relax. You will probably own something else in 6 months anyways. Remember, it's audio. Have that same passion for your family or channel that energy to help a neighbor. I don't know of any audio product that couldn't be made better some how.

Also, I have no affliation with no Danny or Brian, I have owned or heard the 626r, RM40, AV1 and a pair of custom speakers made with the Raven tweeter that Danny designed the xover for.

Besides Danny wears a mullet, give him a break!  

[Andrikos]

Hmmm, VMPS trims their caps to, I don't know, 13 significant figures?
How on earth could anybody improve upon this?  

(BTW, the above comment was sarcastic. The other variables of a speaker are so much grosser, that trimming a link of the chain to death, is useless IMHO.)

Good luck with the mods Danny, I'm dying to see some measurements!
 

[Danny Richie]

Gee, I wonder if GR makes a speaker like the 626R for around the same price?

I could be mistaken but are fully decked out 626R's in the $2,300. range or something.

I do not offer any fully assembled speaker in that price range.

Danny, roughly how much do you charge for X-over mods/redesigns?

It depends on the size of the job as to how much gets billed as per some hourly figure.

I have also been know to cut pretty good deals for friends or someone with a real basket case design that needs help but can't really afford it...

Regular customers get special considerations.

If it is a commercial product that I am working on and a company has plans to market my efforts as their own products, and profit from that, then I get royalties for my work as well.

I think everyone should read tinear99's post a few times and take note of the really important things he says.

[Andrikos]

I think everyone should read tinear99's post a few times and take note of the really important things he says.

Including the mullet thing?          

[Danny Richie]

Actually I lost the mullet headed hair cut a little over a year ago. I looked like the lead singer from Def Lepard or something.

I had long hair for about 18 years.  

[Sedona Sky Sound]

Personally, I just want to know who your local customer got his 626Rs from. Even though I am the exclusive VMPS dealer for all of Texas, I know it was not me. I try to make sure that my customers know what the product sounds like BEFORE they purchase it. As such, I regularly travel to Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio to let customers audition my equipment (including the 626Rs).

Most are floored by how good the 626Rs sound while a few others prefer a different sound all-together. As a dealer, it is my job to help my customers decide if a particular product is right for them. Since this person did NOT buy from me, he/she did not get the advantage of my experience with the product and helping them set it up optimally in their environment. Such is the case for people who buy used or consciously violate the rules of the sales system to save on state sales tax.  

My personal viewpoint is that if customer likes what they hear in the audition, purchases the product, and then later decides to modify the product because they think they can make it better, then more power to them. The VMPS forum is full of tweaks and modifications that some people think make the products sound better in a particular environment (but may sound much worse to someone else in another environment). VMPS has offered most speakers in kit form for many years for those that think they can build a better mousetrap.

Julian
www.sedonaskysound.com

[Danny Richie]

Personally, I just want to know who your local customer got his 626Rs from. Even though I am the exclusive VMPS dealer for all of Texas, I know it was not me.

Well, I'll just say his name was Chris and he lives in Wichita Falls. He ordered them from John Casler.

As such, I regularly travel to Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio to let customers audition my equipment (including the 626Rs).

You're welcome to travel here anytime to meet with me and audition or listen to anything you like.

I regularly make trips to Dallas to visit Dodd Audio too. I would be glad to meet you there for a day of listening to this or that.

You sound like, as a distributor, that you offer a lot of good service along with your products.

I'd ask you to be a distributor for me if I sold through distributors, but I don't. Maybe one day.....

[tkp]

I don't see any thing wrong with what Danny is offering assuming the information is fact.  For example, Danny said that the standard crossover for the 626R is comprised of parts which are the cheapest of their kind.  I would like to see pictures of the crossover with part brand listing to back up this "fact".

As for the potential improvement, it is fairly subjective because of personal's taste involve.  I do hope people will take Danny up on his offer and post their opinions so we can all see the end result.

[Danny Richie]

I would like to see pictures of the crossover with part brand listing to back up this "fact".

E-mail me and I'll send you a URL. It includes pictures of the crossover components.

[rosconey]

the customer has a thread going over at aa in the speaker area, at least i think its him he has pics and graphs and such

[Danny Richie]

Well, that is not the guy that owns these speakers.

And his e-mail does not match anyone that e-mailed me requesting to see my measurements.

Posting this for no reason at all was not cool at all.  

[tkp]

]

I would like to see pictures of the crossover with part brand listing to back up this "fact".

E-mail me and I'll send you a URL. It includes pictures of the crossover components.

Danny,

Please post the link here if possible because I don't think it is fair to communicate the information via private mail considering this thread is out in the public.  

I don't see any thing wrong with the content of your post (although I do not agree with some of the wording) but the assumption here is what you say can be proven by actual results and you have done your home work to show that your revised crossover is better and it is cost effective.  

If you have not build any thing yet and all the information you posted so far is what you think the improvement will likely be once you redesign the crossover then I am not interested because it would be all speculation and not fact.  

I remembered reading a comment by Lyn Olson (spelling?) regarding testing his Ariel design with a number of good amplifiers was that "The speaker measurement stayed the same but yet they sound differently with different amplifiers".  This is one of the reason why I put very little weight in measurement.  The real test is that will the improvement, if any, shows up in my listening environment which is for sure is not ideal.

[zybar]

Since it is posted on AA, I think it is fair to post it here (Danny, I know you didn't post it on AA).

http://www.gr-research.com/vmps626r.htm

BTW, I own a pair of RM 40's and I don't have the issues that Danny has pointed out with this particular pair of 626's.

I am not defending VMPS nor do I feel I need to.

At first, I thought Danny's text was inflamatory, but I went to Empirical Audio's website (for example)  and Steve talks about the quality of the products he mods with a "similar" tone (although Steve doesn't have the history with the products he mods as Danny does with VMPS).

I agree with TKP that I am always looking for the best sound regardless of who is providing it.

George

[Rob Babcock]

You can't be mousey if you wanna sell your mods- you need some swagger!     Why would you buy mods from someone who wasn't confident (perhaps to the point of arrogance) in his services?  Take Alex of APL; he's sure his players can leap tall buildings in a single bound.  And he's not a modder, but Big B isn't bashful about bluster, either.

Take with a grain of salt if you like, or just don't take it at all.  But so long as he says it in his own forum Danny can be as polite or as rude as he wants!

[suits_me]

This thread is entertaining.

I don't know who's right or if no one is on a technical basis, but if I were Brian Cheney I'd change my last name due to that f yourself fellow.....

No, no, that's not what I meant to say. I already established there's no relation. I meant to say if I were Brian I'd get a pair of Danny's speakers - or Danny's modded 626s - and measure and dissect _them_ online. There are lots of ways to measure things. You can put the mic in the least flattering place, you can fail to reveal if the curves are averaged or what the space is, and so on.

But Brian always seems pretty straightforward. Perhaps he could post some curves or more information on the 626s.

Lastly, one thing I do know is passive aggression. I am pretty sure most modders - of CDs and DVD players, anyway - choose units to mod because they like something about the Pioneer or the Sony. Not because the original units are an embarrassment to their makers.

[Rob Babcock]

That't probably be the first thing Brian ever did measure, or at least post any measurements for!     This thread has gotten to be funny- a guy offers a product in his own Circle and you think he just cornholed the Pope in the middle of main street at high noon.   I didn't gather that Danny thought they sucked, but I guess I wasn't reading his post right. Wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

[orpheus]

I was intrigued by this whole discussion because I recently (two weeks ago) bought a pair of VMPS 626R's with the FST tweeter.  I want to preface what I'm about to write by saying that I do not have an emotional attachment to these speakers, I got them at a good price and could easily sell them for what I paid, so no harm done if I don't like them.  

For those of you who haven't seen, the pictures and measurements have been posted on Audio Asylum.  Here (sorry for the cut and paste) :

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/speakers/messages/166352.html

I hadn't looked inside my 626's, so I was curious.  I opened them up, and saw almost the same thing that was pictured, with almost negligibly better soldering.   I'm not saying that the pictures are inaccurate, but I would like to point out that Brian Cheney is not being secretive about what parts comprise his speakers, nor is he making a tremendous profit margin on his speakers, as was maliciously implied in the earlier posts.

I remembered that in one of Brian's posts on AA, he broke down the components and costs of his speakers.  After searching AA, I found the following, in which he gives a list of all the components and costs of his RM2 speakers:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=general&n=148549

quote
Anyway, the RM 2 system($2690 pr):

1" MDF veneered cabinet $190
1gal Soundcoat (provides that rocklike ceramic sound) $25
12" woven carbon fiber woofer, natural rubber surround, phase plug, 80oz magnet, 300W VC, 1/2" front plate $95
Two 8" ribbon mids from US source, $166
Two 1" handbuilt ribbon tweeters, $70
12" passive radiator $16
3way biamp crossover with single amp/biamp switch, custom Erse 14 gauge laminar core focused field woofer coil $7, two additional parallel coils $9, 61 uF Axon polyprop cap with trim to exact value $14, 400V custom polyprop treble cap $2.50, 36 feet teflon insulated silverplate wire $40, 2ft 12 gauge Monster Cable (bass) $1.60, two large Lpads $14, two solid brass BP (heavily gold plated) $12, 15A toggle switch $4, gasket tape, foam masks $4, 80 fasteners $1.60, logo $1.00, nomenclature labels $.50, pack including double boxing and 1 1/2" solid styrofoam all six sides (to survive UPS) $35, UPS ground shipping $126 (included in retail), 4 manhours labor $60.

Total per pair: $1788.

Big B

endquote

Granted, this is for a more expensive speaker, but I think that you could use this as a guideline for the 626R.  He doesn't use the most expensive or best available parts in all cases, but he also doesn't use the cheapest as was stated previously.  The cheap wire in the photo is used only on the bass driver, where expensive wire is arguably unnecessary.  

Mr. Cheney has posted many times about crossovers on AA, and his own.  Let him speak for himself through previous posts, since he's on vacation.

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=speakers&n=47883

    -discusses matching tolerances and voicing his crossovers

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=speakers&n=7052

    -Discusses the pitfalls of speaker measurement and the usefullness of measurements.


I wasn't posting these links for Mr. Ritchie, but for the people on this board who might not already be aware of Mr. Cheney's ideas about speaker design and construction.  Mr. Ritchie is well aware of Mr. Cheney's opinions and manufacturing practices.  They have had extensive arguments, one of which you can read here:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=speakers&n=94011

Putting the offer to mod the VMPS 626R into context paints a different picture than one of a cocky modder who wants to make money by promoting improvements to other people's designs.  The public disagreements between Mr. Cheney and Mr. Ritchie constitute motivation for Mr. Ritchie to use the context of modding to disparage and insult the products of Mr. Cheney.  The fact that he has disparaged the speakers without having even built and implemented a crossover that he feels improves the product further demonstrates that Mr. Ritchie is not behaving according to some unwritten code of modder's conduct, but that he is irresponsibly trashing a disliked competitor and then hiding behind the guise of just doing his job.  

I also find it interesting that Mr. Cheney is on vacation now, which prevents him from being able to immediately respond.  I know that he's on vacation because he posted that fact on this very website (Audiocircle, in the VMPS forum)

Mr. Ritchie, now that you have published the measurements on your website, you have a moral obligation to explain how you took the measurements and how you implemented the tuning capabilities of the speakers so that the measurements were as flat as possible.

I would have no objection to purchasing a better crossover.  I do however, object to Mr. Ritchie's disparagment of Mr. Cheney's speakers without explination.  I also find it odd that a modder would find no redeeming qualities in the product that he presumes to mod.  I have never seen a modder advertise that he can take a product that measures terribly, is poorly built and sounds bad and make it so much better that it's worth modding.  That doesn't make sense, business, or otherwise.  You take a product that you find to have many redeeming qualities and improve upon an already good design.

Sincerely,
Aaron.

[Danny Richie]

but he also doesn't use the cheapest as was stated previously.

When I said cheapest I was referring to cost not quality. Maybe in-expensive would have been a better word choice?

The cheap wire in the photo is used only on the bass driver, where expensive wire is arguably unnecessary.

The wire used was good.

Copper wire on the woofer and Silver coated Copper on the tweeter and mid that was Teflon jacketed.

Putting the offer to mod the VMPS 626R into context paints a different picture than one of a cocky modder who wants to make money by promoting improvements to other people's designs.

I was not offering this mod for the money to gain. I am going to offer it to the people that are interested in it because they want it.

The fact that he has disparaged the speakers without having even built and implemented a crossover that he feels improves the product further demonstrates that Mr. Ritchie is not behaving according to some unwritten code of modder's conduct,

Not so. A new crossover design has been built and tested. A recent measurement was uploaded as well, and more will follow as time permits.

Mr. Ritchie, now that you have published the measurements on your website, you have a moral obligation to explain how you took the measurements and how you implemented the tuning capabilities of the speakers so that the measurements were as flat as possible.

Measuring distance and measuring axis were clearly there in print for all to see as well as full explanations. Plus, great effort was put into trying to get the best possible response curves and to determine the optimal listening height.

L-pads were adjusted from one end to the other as well.

All was done as the owner of the speakers observed the whole thing too.

I would have no objection to purchasing a better crossover. I do however, object to Mr. Ritchie's disparagment of Mr. Cheney's speakers without explination.

Did you not see all the posted information? Or did you only see pictures that some are spreading to other forums?

And Aaron, There is no "T" in Richie.

[texasphile]

Yes, it is the lonely consumer, out in the wilderness of the loudspeaker forest.  I am the man responsible for this thread.  All that I wanted was for the loudspeakers that I purchased to live up to their potential.

       If the VMPS 626R loudspeakers were "not Scottish!" to borrow a phrase from Saturday Night Live; "Welcome to all things Scottish.  And remember if it's not Scottish...it's Crap!"; Danny would have run the measurements and pronounced a curse upon the VMPS household and told me to take the speakers back to whence they came.   However, he found fixable flaws and that is what I believe that he was trying to accomplish with the modifications that he is doing to my speakers.  I wanted better sounding speakers, Danny said that he could make it so.  That is all folks.  I do not know the extent of the personal history of the players involved.  I know that Danny found other things with the loudspeaker such as assembly and such, which do not necessarily contribute to the sound reproduction, but rather with the aesthetic.  I agree with him, although I chose not to make it an issue with the dealer of purchase.

     I also evidently crossed a retailer - distributor boundary line.  I apologized via email to both John Calser and Julian of Sedona Sky for the error.  I was unaware of the boundary and I regret contacting a dealer from another area.  

     If anyone is upset that I voted for George W. Bush for President as a Florida Absentee Ballot voter, I apologize.  If I offended anyone besides John Atkinson and Arthur Dudley for my letters published in the March 2004 Stereophile magazine, I apologize.  I stick to the assertion that I made which stated that Stereophile's editor should not allow it's writers to espouse a political agenda in a magazine column supposedly about audio equipment.

     I hope that I have mollified everyone.  If not, I apologize.

Chris Henderson