[jtwrace]

We played them with and without subs and they sounded better without. The subs were JL Fathom F112's.

This means that they were setup wrong then.  Typical and simple as that.

[medium jim]

This means that they were setup wrong then.  Typical and simple as that.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I know of an owner and volunteer here who likes then without a sub. We are talking about the Magnepan 20.7's....

Jim

[jtwrace]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I know of an owner and volunteer here who likes then without a sub. We are talking about the Magnepan 20.7's....

Jim

It's not opinion, it's fact.  Show me the measurements with and without. 

[medium jim]

It's not opinion, it's fact.  Show me the measurements with and without.

I respectfully disagree and will leave it at that.  I love bass, know what good bass sounds like and I don't need measurements to confirm what my ears tell me.

Lets move on.

Jim

[jtwrace]

I love bass, know what good bass sounds like and I don't need measurements to confirm what my ears tell me.

Pretty much what I expected.    If you have never taken measurements you have NO IDEA what it should sound like.  A little bit of science goes a long way but you're clearly not interested in that.

[Guy 13]

Hi all Audio Circle members.
I have a pair of Audio Nirvana 8" on dipole arrangement and I can listen to them without a sub woofer, however, I must admit that I feel there is something missing, depending on the type of music playing.
I've tried the extended range drivers in a bass reflex enclosure, I did get more bass, but still not enough for some type of music.
I must say that even if the extended range drivers are capable of reproducing 
20 to 20Khz there still missing something, however, there is something they do that no other drivers can do as good as the extended range drivers, is the presence.
Facts based on my personal experience with my own extended range drivers.
Guy 13

[roscoeiii]

I sold my REL Storm after getting my Von Schweikert VR-4s. Love the big sound and impact. Bass down to 20 Hz.

[Rclark]

I like how my bass sounds, my ears tell me it sounds awesome, it's nice and tight, but even I will relent to the fact that it will improve greatly once I can measure and control my room and system.

I think the "I don't need anything to tell me" folks could use a reality check.

[SteveFord]

Magnepan does not make up their frequency response figures.  They err on the conservative side.
They're listing 25-40 kHz for the 20.7s.

[jtwrace]

Magnepan does not make up their frequency response figures.  They err on the conservative side.
They're listing 25-40 kHz for the 20.7s.

Just because the speaker spec says it goes down to a figure doesn't mean that once it's in the room that's the case.  If you measure, you will know.  If not, you will never know. 

[JLM]

Seems like we hit a nerve.

Objective vs. subjective?

I've found most audiophiles really don't know what they're listening to (for instance frequencies or sound pressure levels). 

If "blissful" its OK IMO to be ignorant.  Professionals listen for perfection/mistakes, audiophiles ultimately for enjoyment. 

But if you're not happy with your sound, then it's time to "fish or cut bait" (give up the audiophile aspirations or by being objective - educating yourself and using the scientific method to solve the problem).  Most don't try really being objective and so give up or flounder through years/money, usually following the latest fads.

[poseidonsvoice]

Just because the speaker spec says it goes down to a figure doesn't mean that once it's in the room that's the case.  If you measure, you will know.  If not, you will never know.

Bingo. This true of ALL speakers placed in a ROOM.

Best,
Anand.

[SteveFord]

I believe that speaker manufacturers (and most reviewers) gave up on speaker measurements because you're basically measuring how the speakers perform in a given room. 
I don't own any testing equipment other than test discs but I did have a fellow drag over a laptop, microphone and a pink noise disc to see how the 3.6s, 1.7s and DMW worked in my place. 
None of those are full range but the speakers measured as Magnepan said they would and the downstairs (3.6s) was just about perfect.  I just set the stuff up by ear and by eye and nothing was required according to the graphs.  I'd post those but they vanished when my old computer got the Blue Screen of Death.
It was nice to see that what sounded right to me measured right as well; I was expecting to see the worst!

I don't know if I would attempt anything along the lines of trying to do 4 subs with the by ear and by eye method but I know that I can do something simple like a 2.0 or 2.1 by ear and by eye and get it right.

If I had the test equipment I'd use it but I've got better things to spend my money on.  My mortgage, for instance.

[poseidonsvoice]

I believe that speaker manufacturers (and most reviewers) gave up on speaker measurements because you're basically measuring how the speakers perform in a given room. 
I don't own any testing equipment other than test discs but I did have a fellow drag over a laptop, microphone and a pink noise disc to see how the 3.6s, 1.7s and DMW worked in my place. 
None of those are full range but the speakers measured as Magnepan said they would and the downstairs (3.6s) was just about perfect.  I just set the stuff up by ear and by eye and nothing was required according to the graphs.  I'd post those but they vanished when my old computer got the Blue Screen of Death.
It was nice to see that what sounded right to me measured right as well; I was expecting to see the worst!

I don't know if I would attempt anything along the lines of trying to do 4 subs with the by ear and by eye method but I know that I can do something simple like a 2.0 or 2.1 by ear and by eye and get it right.

If I had the test equipment I'd use it but I've got better things to spend my money on.  My mortgage, for instance.

Not including the old laptop my 'test' equipment cost me about $400  .  I'm done with you 'golden eared' folks especially at frequencies below Schroeder, i.e 300 Hz; where there have been a myriad of publications, and instructional tutorials (see Hifizine) that help the common audiophile in achieving a linear bass response both in the frequency and time domains. Let your golden ears decide above the Schroeder. You will be surprised. This is an absolute shame that even the moderator of this forum doesn't realize as such, and will be censoring my response to boot. Carry on with the misinformation fellas.

Best,
Anand.

[rooze]

I know there has to be other full range speakers that can also go low and would like to hear from all of you guys with your first hand accounts of which speakers you feel don't need subwoofer augmentation.

Jim

I owned Maggie 3.6R's for a while but they obviously needed bass augmentation. I dabbled with a couple different subs but never really put the necessary time into getting them well integrated.
I found the Apogee Caliper Sig to be considerably more capable than the 3.6's in delivering that 'live' feel, with more slam and solidity in the lower regions, but still ultimately not a 'full range' by today's standards.

I recently bought a pair of Carver Amazing (hybrid between the original and Platinum) and these have all the bass you'll ever need, assuming you can get them to work in your room. (it isn't that difficult).
With a total of 8 x 12" woofers, they should have bass...

[SoCalWJS]

Ah - we're supposed to show our actual in-room response to support our statements...

Ok





1/3 octave using omnimic. Still working on room treatments and I need to improve decay times a bit.

[SteveFord]

It's a long shot but I wrote to Mr. Elliott to see if he saved the measurements he took when he came over.
That was a fun project to see just what I had going on.

[medium jim]

I've been to enough "Live" Concerts and Events to have a real good grasp of what Bass is supposed to sound like and the 20.7's were able to deliver the goods without subs.  I didn't need fancy measurements to confirm what I already knew to be fact.   If I were having issues that I couldn't resolve by trial and error placement, then it would behoove me to take measurements to isolate an issue(s). 

My posts were not a condemnation of measuring and to those who do.  The responses I received speak for themselves.   

I too tend to think that Magnepan is conservative in there measurements, but understand, they are taken in an Anechoic chamber.  Each room will have its own set of issues.   

Let's move on, please.

Jim

[*Scotty*]

I can see the rational of not measuring. It wil involve at least a $400 dollar investment plus the learning curve.
Also if you have no budget or inclination to solve problems that you are at present blissfully unaware of, it makes little sense to invest the time or the money into something you have no interest in.
Your pursuit of the hobby does not run to the technical aspects of the hobby. I think that is a perfectly valid approach.
 As an amateur astronomer I have meet many in my hobby who are not interested in the more technical aspects how a particular telescope design works. It is enough that they can competently align and collimate their telescope for accurate observing .Their main interest is in observing and the telescope is just a tool to be used to further that end. 
  I think the acid test for any "full range" speaker is reproducing well recorded organ music performed in a  cathedral that contains the last octave of the instrument which is played on the pedals. I have had the good fortune to attend several such performances, most recently at the National Cathedral in Washington D.C..
 Every performance has been characterized by the sensation that all of the air in the cathedral including that which is surrounding your body is vibrating in concert when the lowest notes are played. If the speaker actually has full bass extension into the last octave with no diminution then it will be able to recreate this quality of the organs performance with great verisimilitude. Reproducing the last octave as well as the complex reverberation patterns is a real challenge to a system as well as the loudspeaker.
Scotty

[JerryM]

Measure twice, cut once.