Full Range Speakers that really are!

medium jim · « **on:** 5 Dec 2012, 02:06 am »

In my younger days there wasn't Subwoofers and not many speakers really went low. I had a pair of Altec Voice of the Theater's (A7's) that reached down with authority and a good friend a pair of JBL 4420's that delivered the goods. Sure there was Cerwin Vega, Advent and such, but the bass was boomy and slow.

Fast forward 35 years...

Today I heard a pair of Magnepan 20.7's fed by McIntosh tube mono blocks that amazed me by how much bass they delivered below 40hz. I wouldn't call it outright slam, but was very fast and articulate. We played them with and without subs and they sounded better without. The subs were JL Fathom F112's.

I know there has to be other full range speakers that can also go low and would like to hear from all of you guys with your first hand accounts of which speakers you feel don't need subwoofer augmentation.

Jim

medium jim · « **Reply #1 on:** 5 Dec 2012, 04:35 pm »

Really, I know that there are several out there, but 1st hand experiences are needed.

Thanks,
Jim

Davey · « **Reply #2 on:** 5 Dec 2012, 04:48 pm »

I don't think there are too many actually. Once you include the bottom octaves and realistic SPL capability, it narrows the field considerably.

Dave.

bummrush · « **Reply #3 on:** 5 Dec 2012, 04:52 pm »

Well I will add my Clements.this might would weird but its got to be recorded on the disc first. But these speakers go low.
I had MMG's and even those went low , and it was high quality.

borism · « **Reply #4 on:** 5 Dec 2012, 04:59 pm »

My AudioKinesis Jazz Modules have an in-room bass extension into the 20s. Also offer high sensitivity (92) and are tube friendly.

JLM · « **Reply #5 on:** 6 Dec 2012, 03:47 pm »

Depends on how you define "full range". Decades ago it was 40 - 16,000 Hz (think Klipschhorns). Tiny amps limited expectations for how much bass energy could be delivered. Even now most music doesn't require response below 30 Hz. But HT and marketing types push the 20 - 20,000 Hz mantra.

Going below 30 Hz, even 40 Hz can introduce all kinds of issues/problems/compromises in room response and speaker performance.

medium jim · « **Reply #6 on:** 6 Dec 2012, 03:57 pm »

Quote from: JLM on 6 Dec 2012, 03:47 pm

Depends on how you define "full range". Decades ago it was 40 - 16,000 Hz (think Klipschhorns). Tiny amps limited expectations for how much bass energy could be delivered. Even now most music doesn't require response below 30 Hz. But HT and marketing types push the 20 - 20,000 Hz mantra.

Going below 30 Hz, even 40 Hz can introduce all kinds of issues/problems/compromises in room response and speaker performance.

Back in the day, there were speakers that had plenty of extension below 40hz and did it cleanly. That is why this is so interesting to me that with all the modern advancements in speaker design that there apparently doesn't seem to be many as Davey noted, that can go low without the need of subwoofer augmentation.

The next question, is what is the cost of the ones that can. In the case of the Magnepan 20.7's, around 14K...for HT, they would need subs.

Jim

JerryLove · « **Reply #7 on:** 6 Dec 2012, 05:18 pm »

Quote from: medium jim on 5 Dec 2012, 04:35 pm

Really, I know that there are several out there, but 1st hand experiences are needed.

The list is tremendously long, and I'm not sure how to narrow it. Some I've listened to that I'd not feel a desire to add subs to.

B&W 800 and 801.
Salk SS8, SS10, and SS12 (my listening experience is with the

.
McIntosh XRT2k, XR100 (and I'd guess all the speakers in between)
Paradigm S8 / Studio 100

Those are some modern and with personal experience.

Full range is, perhaps, less common because it is less needed (and because package often matters more). None of the old speakers being reminisced about would out-perform a quad of high-end modern subs.

JLM · « **Reply #8 on:** 7 Dec 2012, 04:06 pm »

From the 70's on, the trend has been towards tighter/leaner, less flabby bass and designs that follow the European model of designing for smaller/more poorly isolated rooms. Turning the deep bass over to subs makes lots of sense, especially with the speaker market moving to multiple channels (HT) and how often we relocate our systems to different rooms with varying sonic characteristics.

If you accept the advantages of multiple subs dispersed around the room (or at least one at opposite ends of the room), the obvious main speaker solution would be something like a two-way monitor with response down to 80 Hz. Anything more is wasteful, overly complicated, and counterproductive.

Freo-1 · « **Reply #9 on:** 14 Dec 2012, 11:02 am »

I have a pair of Legacy Signature III's. They are only 2 db down at 20 Hz, and with a sensitivity of 93 db@ 1 watt, are easily driven by a Pass Labs XA 30.5. With three 10 inch woofers, no sub required for full range performance.

kingdeezie · « **Reply #10 on:** 14 Dec 2012, 03:09 pm »

The GR Research LS series. I own a pair of LS6's, and they are most certainly full range. Getting the bass tamed in my room has been a nightmare, and is always on going!

JLM · « **Reply #11 on:** 14 Dec 2012, 05:12 pm »

I had an huge bass taming years ago, finally donated 7 cu. ft. 3-ways to my church as they sounded marvelous in a 20,000 cu. ft. space, 10 plus feet away from walls/etc.

Most folks over buy bass for the available space (eyes bigger than their stomachs).

That's why powered subs are the way to go and more importantly they can be moved apart from the mains. Most importantly additional subs can be used to even out the room response.

SoCalWJS · « **Reply #12 on:** 14 Dec 2012, 06:08 pm »

I would agree that you have to have a good working definition/agreement on what exactly constitutes "full range". To me, it has to not only be the ability to reproduce a specific frequency (say 20 Hz), but to produce it at a certain volume w/o distortion, and this is dependant on the room that the speaker is in.

I also have the LS-6'es and they are very close to true full range speakers, but in my room, they start dropping off in the low 20's. This means that it is tough to get the last octave or so with great volume.

I did work extensively with placement and OC703 in the front corners, and I believe I have it close to as good as possible in my environment, but there are certain pieces where I wish I had a bit more from my 2 channel setup (of course, I can switch to 7.3 when I want

)

tim92gts · « **Reply #13 on:** 8 Jan 2013, 05:41 pm »

I'm using PMC BB5is in a fairly lossy room and i need all i can get; they're quoted as 3dB down at 17Hz.

Sound good but i do occassionally ask too much of the bass channels on the amps. They indicate clipping

sometimes on bassy dance with a solid beat. Spec is 4 x about 800 Watts.

Room is 7 x 10m with an average 3m ceiling.

Blows you out of the seat mid movie at 5m.

josh358 · « **Reply #14 on:** 13 Jan 2013, 01:16 am »

Tympanis. They go almost as deep as the 20.7's, have much the same bass clarity (as the 20.1's, anyway -- still haven't heard the 20.7's), and more slam/better midbass. They also allow you to minimize room modes to an extent other speakers don't. Set up properly in a rectangular, they can be *entirely* eliminated below the spatial Nyquist frequency.

I don't know that they or most large speakers are truly full range, though. That requires response to 14 Hz.

SteveFord · « **Reply #15 on:** 13 Jan 2013, 01:22 am »

14 Hz? I think that eliminates everything?

medium jim · « **Reply #16 on:** 13 Jan 2013, 01:32 am »

Quote from: SteveFord on 13 Jan 2013, 01:22 am

14 Hz? I think that eliminates everything?

I would think so....

Jim

*Scotty* · « **Reply #17 on:** 13 Jan 2013, 02:15 am »

In the first octave covered by the pipe organ the lowest note is C at 16.351Hz, 14Hz might be overkill, if achievable.
With synthesizers and virtual instruments there is no practical limit and nothing may be adequate.
Scotty

werd · « **Reply #18 on:** 17 Jan 2013, 01:19 am »

Well, the Bryston Model Ts for one. Focal 1038se, B@W 802ds, anything from pmc floor stander. I mentioned in the other thread that bass response from subs are really not about resolving notes in the stereo image( that was my point anyways), but more about loading your room with un-bundled felt low frequency sensation. Aside from some pipe organ recordings almost all competent full range speakers can resolve notes in the stereo image from any instrument you just have to pick your taste in playback.

Not to mention that if the system doesn't have decent linear ac mains in you would not be able to properly assess what is at fault anyways. May not even be the speakers, could be the power supply.

Thats how I look at it.

oboaudio · « **Reply #19 on:** 17 Jan 2013, 02:05 pm »

Quote from: *Scotty* on 13 Jan 2013, 02:15 am

In the first octave covered by the pipe organ the lowest note is C at 16.351Hz, 14Hz might be overkill, if achievable.
With synthesizers and virtual instruments there is no practical limit and nothing may be adequate.
Scotty

There are two pipe organs in the world that have 64' pipes (one in Atlantic City, New Jersey and the other in Sydney Australia.
The Hill organ of Sydney town hall Australia goes down to 8Hz as well as the one in Atlantic City.

My rotary subwoofer goes down to below 1 hz and can handle anything, (these large pipe organs, synthesizers, Saturn
rocket (with frequencies between 3 and 5 hz) and is definitely adequate.