[timind]

Oh sorry, he has a JustaRak. Yes, I am the designer.

Hey, I built one of these about ten years ago but I used pieces of slate for shelves instead of wood. Where should I send the royalty check?

[Diamond Dog]

Just for giggles, I loosened the covers in my room but did not take off.
I did not hear anything.
I have in the past raised my speaker cables off of the wood floor using paper tubes again I did not hear anything.
I was on Micheal's site and seen his wall outlets just hanging free pulled from the box out of the wall dangling and hard wired.



Yikes! I don't think sooooo.
If you did most of the recommended list your system would just look like, well, ummm, schit. 

I'll just stick using the "Room Tunes" acoustic setup.

Nope, nuthin' wrong here...

And yet there are still hoople-heads crowding the wagon, waving money around and clamoring for a bottle of that Magical Curative Elixir. Dr. M.Green calls them "Tunees". P.T. Barnum called them something else entirely...

If this thread had a soundtrack it would be calliope music.   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calliope_(music)

D.D.

[Guy 13]

Hi all Audio Circle members and and especially Mr. Michael Green
{{My comments in parentheses.}}

1) Use 15 amp fuses not 20.
{{Logical, no need to mention that, every normal person knows that! }}

2) Loosen all the outlet plates in your audio room (plates that are on your audio system line)
{{DANGER ! Do not do that, I repeat: DO NOT DO THAT !}}

3) Loosen the screws on all components
{{ And ? ? ? And your components will fall apart.
     Again, not logical at all !
     Again, what does that have to do with improving
     the sound? Can you tell me,
     without writing a full page of bla, bla, bla
     what is the logic of loosen-up all the screws?
     That might even be unsafe.}}

4) Take covers off the components
    {{ Again and again and one more time again,
     what does that have to do with improving the sound?
      UNSAFE – DANGER – DO NOT DO THAT
      If something happens, your insurer won’t pay
      and you might even be sued for millions of $$$ }}
     
5) Remove rubber feet from any component.
     {{ If you remove the rubber feet from your components,
          The ventilating slots/holes of your components might
           Be blocked and the components might over heat !
           What about the vibrations ? }}
             
6) Use low mass IC and power cords.
     {{ Undersize power cord is not a good idea. }}

7) Hard wire past the AC connection on the back of
    components whenever possible,
    {{ Not very practical and maybe,
         not even permitted by the electrical code ? ? }}

 use as low of a gauge speaker cable as possible (I use 22 gauge)
{{With high power amplifier, you might damage the amplifier. An Audio Circle member can calculate for me the amperage and prove my point. }}

9) Loosen the screws where the RCA plugs are attached.
    {{ Loosen up, loosen up… What’s the point ? }}

10) Take the barrels off of your RCA's
      {{ Sorry, I don’t understand that one.
           Do you mean the bullet connector ?
           If that’s so, you might get interference. }}

11) Replace the cups on the back of your speakers when
      possible to a lighter weight one.
      {{Sorry, I don’t understand that one,
       can a Audio Circle member jump in to help me?}}

12) Place the speaker cables in without tightening them.
      {{ That will lead to a bad connection and bad
      connections are prone to bad sound.
      No? Yes ? Maybe ???}}

13) Loosen screws on drivers (just cracking them usually is enough)
{{That might work for tweeters and mid range drivers,
but woofers might/will rattle.
Can you tell us what is the torque we need to tighten the screws at and then, we will need to buy a torque wrench. OUCH ! }}

14) Remove heavy dampening products or drapes from the room.
{{I get it; then the listening room will have the same acoustic as a public washroom… }}

15) Treat the upper corners of the room with barricade acoustical treatments
{{Ahhhhhh…. At last, at long, long last.
Now, that makes sense.
It’s about time, you come up with something that makes sense and that is safe.
Please, keep the good ideas coming, you are on the right track.}}

16) If you have a rack against the wall in front of you try pulling it out a little (usually in 8' tall rooms 16 to 18")
{{ I don’t think any wife will approve that in a living room,
In the basement, maybe, but not in the living room.}}

17) Take grills off speakers.
       {{Yes and maybe the wife will accept,
        Of course during the listening session only.}}

18) Make sure speakers are not sitting on carpet.
      {{ If you have wall to wall carpet, what do you do? }}

19) Take out transformer locks when possible.
      {{ NO ! That out of the question…}}

20) Remove any ties on any cables.
      {{ If you are talking about the wire tie wraps inside the components, that’s consider modifications and against the law… You have been warned !!! }}
       
21) Try not to let cable touch each other inside the components.
{{Same as item 20.}}

22) If your a tweak or have a technician remove your transformer away from circuit boards.
{{ Same as item 20.}}

{{DO NOT MODIFIED IN ANY WAY FACTORY BUILT COMPONENTS !}}
{{Mr. Green, PLEASE do not, I repeat: DO NOT tell or encourage audiophiles to modify any electrical components they have, you might also get into trouble.
If something bad happens, you might have to go to court and say under oat that you are the one that recommended to makes those modification.
No need to be a genius to understand that !
Guy 13 }}

[rollo]

      Proof proof and more proof. Oye ! The proof is in the listening. When we first became dealers for the BSG QOL signal completion stage the naysayers attacked the product without even knowing what it did. Impossible ? Snake oil ? and so on.
     However to date every home demo that we have conducted made a sale. We as dealers are not doing business to convince anyone. You convince yourself by hearing what the said component or tweak does in your system. Not everyone hears the same or has the same room. It is subjective.
      Items like resonance control can be tuned or adjusted. Which sounds different is only in the eye of the beholder. My favorite designer David Berning. Why ? He thinks out of the box and dismisses all so called Audio Truths. He is continually experimenting to improve the designs theories. He is especially concern with placement of parts and their relationship of such.
       If you can listen to one of Davids Amps quite amazing actually. They weigh like 3 lbs or something like that. There are some very affective products out there. One does not have to conform to any belief or audio religion. You like fine you no like that's fine as well. No one is forcing you to indulge just offering our experiences.
      Hey we can lead you to the water, it is your decision to drink or not.


charles

[Diamond Dog]

Charles, to me it's like this, OK?  I am not saying that your friend Mr.Green does not have a right to ply his trade here in the Commercial Zone and expound his personal theories on how to get better sound. That's not my call.  If some of the locals want to drink the Kool-Aid and become "Tunees", that sort of thing has gone on since the beginning of time and will go on until the end of time. Fine by me. I won't be shopping at the MGA website any time soon based on the pitch I've sen here  but if others want to, it's their dime. Proof or no proof. For me, this isn't about that. I'm positive that there are folks here who will click on my system and accuse me of being as big a subjectivist as anyone and perhaps that's so. So, glass houses and all that, tweak away. Sure I've come across a little cynical and snarky in a coupla posts but I am a profoundly flawed individual somewhat prone to those vices. Sorry if anyone takes offense.

That being said, when you reach a point where people are being encouraged to do things that are not so harmless, things that will at best void warranties and damage equipment but at worst cause injury to themselves and others, what is Mr.Green going to have to say about that ? See the legal disclaimer he made in an earlier post for the answer to that question. Ever been inside a burning house, Chuck ?

How 'bout you, Michael ?

D.D.

[Diamond Dog]

jerry

Thanks for your safety concerns. I have gone over my comments with my lawyers and they have told me that I have stayed within the boundaries here.

1) use 15 amp fuses not 20
2) loosen all the outlet plates in your audio room (plates that are on your audio system line)
3) loosen the screws on all components
4) take covers off the components
5) remove rubber feet from any component
6) use low mass IC and power cords
7) hard wire pass the AC connection on the back of components whenever posible
 use as low of a gauge speaker cable as posible (I use 22 gauge)
9) loosen the screws where the RCA plugs are attached
10) take the barrels off of your RCA's
11) replace the cups on the back of your speakers when posible to a lighter weight one
12) place the speaker cables in without tightening them
13) loosen screws on drivers (just cracking them usually is enough)
14) remove heavy dampening products or drapes from the room
15) treat the upper corners of the room with barricade acoustical treatments
16) if you have a rack against the wall in front of you try pulling it out a little (usually in 8' tall rooms 16 to 18")
17) take grills off speakers
18) make sure speakers are not sitting on carpet
19) take out transformer locks when posible
20) remove any ties on any cables
21) try not to let cable touch each other inside the components
22) if your a tweak or have a technician remove your transformer away from circuit boards

Warning, any tweaks suggested that might involve any electrical applications should first be cleared by your electrician or product company. MGA/RoomTune takes no responsibility for any electrical modifications you choose to do on your equipment. MGA, has done these experiments in lab conditions and is only giving the results based on a safe environment. Always review any parts to be sure they meet federal safety standards. MGA/RoomTune is not endorsing any modifications outside of regular safety codes or manufactures warnings. Any mods you do, you do at your own risk and outside of any responsibility to MGA/RoomTune or Michael Green.

For any latecomers who missed this, here you go.

D.D.

[werd]

I am pretty sure I understand what he is doing here.  He is trying to employ a method similar to my experience. What he calls tuning I call min/maxing. You start by building a soundstage around a particular attribute like resolution. Very often prat will suffer at the hands of resolution. By taking your gear you can employ methods to bring your system as high resolution as possible but systematically reversing it to balance out the prat with the resolution.

The only thing is you have to allow for cable changes which many think is nonsense, you also may have to try stuff like what's he is suggestioning that many will naysay too. But my system is quite tuned ATM to my liking and I have been down the road of what he wants people to hear so I am set. The only I can use is some more of GIk's 244 boards for treatment.

Some of his stuff I wouldn't recommend doing since there is an element of safety like lid lifting and scrambling up the internals of your gear.

[michael green MGA]

Charles, to me it's like this, OK?  I am not saying that your friend Mr.Green does not have a right to ply his trade here in the Commercial Zone and expound his personal theories on how to get better sound. That's not my call.  If some of the locals want to drink the Kool-Aid and become "Tunees", that sort of thing has gone on since the beginning of time and will go on until the end of time. Fine by me. I won't be shopping at the MGA website any time soon based on the pitch I've sen here  but if others want to, it's their dime. Proof or no proof. For me, this isn't about that. I'm positive that there are folks here who will click on my system and accuse me of being as big a subjectivist as anyone and perhaps that's so. So, glass houses and all that, tweak away. Sure I've come across a little cynical and snarky in a coupla posts but I am a profoundly flawed individual somewhat prone to those vices. Sorry if anyone takes offense.

That being said, when you reach a point where people are being encouraged to do things that are not so harmless, things that will at best void warranties and damage equipment but at worst cause injury to themselves and others, what is Mr.Green going to have to say about that ? See the legal disclaimer he made in an earlier post for the answer to that question. Ever been inside a burning house, Chuck ?

How 'bout you, Michael ?

D.D.

Hi DD

No, I agree with you. Safety should come first and if someone can't do this than they should definately stay out of the kitchen. I didn't picture a group of audiophiles that didn't know how to tweak correctly and safely. I know this thread is the hot flaming thread at the moment on AC but I do want to say regardless of the antagonistic people here that you need to be safe. This goes for open baffle designs, open amp and any electrical DIY project you are doing. And in talking to my lawyer yesterday he said that in all honestly all of these guys up on this forum should put warnings any time they have a thread up that covers any kind of electronic component.

[Diamond Dog]

Hi DD

No, I agree with you. Safety should come first and if someone can't do this than they should definately stay out of the kitchen. I didn't picture a group of audiophiles that didn't know how to tweak correctly and safely. I know this thread is the hot flaming thread at the moment on AC but I do want to say regardless of the antagonistic people here that you need to be safe. This goes for open baffle designs, open amp and any electrical DIY project you are doing. And in talking to my lawyer yesterday he said that in all honestly all of these guys up on this forum should put warnings any time they have a thread up that covers any kind of electronic component.

Is there a safe way to do this?  ^^^^^
This thread won't be the only only hot flaming thing at this rate.

As to what we agree on, friend-o, that's a pretty short list: Don't have your speakers sitting on carpet and take the grill covers off when you listen. And that if you appear at least half-way confident in your pitch, there'll always be at least a couple of hoople-heads coming up to your wagon after the show with money in their sweaty little fists. That's what we agree on, Mike.

 Good hunting. Just don't hurt anybody...

D.D.


 

[michael green MGA]

      Proof proof and more proof. Oye ! The proof is in the listening. When we first became dealers for the BSG QOL signal completion stage the naysayers attacked the product without even knowing what it did. Impossible ? Snake oil ? and so on.
     However to date every home demo that we have conducted made a sale. We as dealers are not doing business to convince anyone. You convince yourself by hearing what the said component or tweak does in your system. Not everyone hears the same or has the same room. It is subjective.
      Items like resonance control can be tuned or adjusted. Which sounds different is only in the eye of the beholder. My favorite designer David Berning. Why ? He thinks out of the box and dismisses all so called Audio Truths. He is continually experimenting to improve the designs theories. He is especially concern with placement of parts and their relationship of such.
       If you can listen to one of Davids Amps quite amazing actually. They weigh like 3 lbs or something like that. There are some very affective products out there. One does not have to conform to any belief or audio religion. You like fine you no like that's fine as well. No one is forcing you to indulge just offering our experiences.
      Hey we can lead you to the water, it is your decision to drink or not.


charles

Hi Charles

It's very odd to me that Audio Circle seems to be so far behind in the tweaky department. Honestly I think that in the late 80's and early 90's that the listeners at that time were more on the ball than what I am seeing here on this thread. I can't imagine that this thread represents the norm in tweaking today. From what I am told it is usually just the antagonistic crowd that jumps on many of these threads esspecially when some one from the industry comes in. I haven't heard David's goods in a while. I would like to see more of these low mass products become more front and center so the industry could see the trend of mechanical designing that is happening. there were some real sleds that came out there for a while and honestly I don't know what people were thinking. It will be interesting to see what the next couple of years bring, but in the meantime I'm finding mass produced products that are beating up on a lot of this audiophile stuff.

I use to hang out with J Gordon and Guy L at the shows and some of the comments that these guys would say about the audiophile mind was pretty revealing. He told me once that the main core audiophile world would die off and never reach the mainstream. "Too Stuck" were his worlds "drives me nuts" said with his unforgettable sarcastic smile. We would go into my show room late at night and listen for hours. Now their type of sarcasm I can dig cause these are/were very cool listening cats. The stuff I'm seeing on here is fairly sad and it makes me sad for the readers. It paints a really bad picture of a great hobby. I'm glad I got to know some of the truly greats, but also I have kept the weird types at arms distance. Real audiophiles dig into to the sound and tweaks with a furry. And you can always tell a real listener from the what-a-bes. real listeners are happy and always encouraging the sound in a way that is full of life and excitement. You know like earlier when I was doing the Aqualung thing. here I was having a good time listening and all they could do is be negative. This is 180 away from what the hobby was and at my place is.

[michael green MGA]

Is there a safe way to do this?  ^^^^^
This thread won't be the only only hot flaming thing at this rate.

As to what we agree on, friend-o, that's a pretty short list: Don't have your speakers sitting on carpet and take the grill covers off when you listen. And that if you appear at least half-way confident in your pitch, there'll always be at least a couple of hoople-heads coming up to your wagon after the show with money in their sweaty little fists. That's what we agree on, Mike.

 Good hunting. Just don't hurt anybody...

D.D.

For those reading this, the bottom picture was not on the list I gave. But I want to thank DD for pointing people to my forum http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ . And yes I would say what we agree on is a very short list  . However because he is into Bowie and I ran sound for him, DD can't be all that bad of a person.

[Diamond Dog]

For those reading this, the bottom picture was not on the list I gave. But I want to thank DD for pointing people to my forum http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ . And yes I would say what we agree on is a very short list  . However because he is into Bowie and I ran sound for him, DD can't be all that bad of a person.

Here, Mike - lemme help you out a little more:  http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t152-the-tune-on-audio-circle     

Oh, and as far as you being on Bowie's payroll, he hired Tony Devries, too. Bowie fans will know how that worked out for him...

D.D.

[SteveFord]

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t152-the-tune-on-audio-circle

I guess it's time for this bitter old dinosaur to clip the old meter on and stuff the guts back into my amp. 
See ya.

[WGH]

Michael Greens's spiel reminds me of Burt Lancaster in the movie Elmer Ganrtry. You're trying too hard dude, what's the rush? Audio Circle is not like speed dating, we like to get to know you first. Is that so bad?

Your tweak list looks like all the problems I have had with past stereos and have tried to eliminate, sort of been there - accidentally done that. Hang out on AC for a few years and I'll guarantee your knowledge base will increase and your system will evolve for the better.


Wayne

[Rclark]

This one's for you DD, it has everything but your Calliope. Watch it all the way through, it's brilliant, you get to see him work the crowd. Taken from the wonderful PS3 title Red Dead Redemption, a virtual western.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaS8J1LqAaQ

And Michael, enough with the pot shots. I think you highly underestimate the knowledge base here, I assure you, not everyone has stopped in to visit. We don't talk about this stuff because it is considered largely the stuff of the lunatic fringe. I had yet to see a power socket hanging from the wall. You're the first.

[thunderbrick]

Hi DD

................ in talking to my lawyer yesterday he said that in all honestly all of these guys up on this forum should put warnings any time they have a thread up that covers any kind of electronic component.

All that means is that TWO lawyers will get paid by the insurance companies...........

Edit:  Name dropping doesn't go very far in AC.    I believe most of us here put a lot more stock in what the customers say, not the chest thumping of a uh, true believer.   While we have our fanboys here, they mostly praise their own gear and don't run down other members' gear.

And you'd be wise not to underestimate the knowledge base here. There's a lot of sleepers here with amazing skills and knowledge, and it's been my experience they let others do the talking for them.

I've worked with a lot of people over the years, in all fields of work, and it's been my experience that the talkers know the least.  Not saying you have joined that special group, but you are close to being nominated.  Not that you are full of BS, but your style reminds me of them.

[werd]

I am really not sure why there is so many people willing to throw MGA under the bus? Who cares if he is trying to sell something (which I havent seen him really push). If you haven't notice,  this site is based in audio sales of all types so I can't understand the contempt. If you guys can't handle people pushing audio ideas how the hell does everybody handle the rest of the boards here...like really.

You guys need to lighten up a bit here and maybe try some of his tweaks. I am about to try loosening my drivers a notch and see how that sounds.

[Diamond Dog]

I am really not sure why there is so many people willing to throw MGA under the bus? Who cares if he is trying to sell something (which I havent seen him really push). If you haven't notice,  this site is based in audio sales of all types so I can't understand the contempt. If you guys can't handle people pushing audio ideas how the hell does everybody handle the rest of the boards here...like really.

You guys need to lighten up a bit here and maybe try some of his tweaks. I am about to try loosening my drivers a notch and see how that sounds.

He can sell like Hell...I don't care about that, buddy.  Please see response # 164.

I have seen PMC's official position on the topic of messing with driver screws. It is : Thou Shalt Not.  Mind you, what does Peter Thomas know about speakers?
What I know about speakers is that my PMC's have still got around 19 years of warranty on 'em so I'm not going there. YMMV.

D.D.

[werd]

He can sell like Hell...I don't care about that, buddy.  Please see response # 164.

I have seen PMC's official position on the topic of messing with driver screws. It is : Thou Shalt Not.  Mind you, what does Peter Thomas know about speakers?
What I know about speakers is that my PMC's have still got around 19 years of warranty on 'em so I'm not going there. YMMV.

D.D.

He only recommended  a notch on the screws and not completely dislodging them.

[Diamond Dog]

He only recommended  a notch on the screws and not completely dislodging them.

Dammit, Werd! You fixed your post before I could make a snarky remark about English being your second language.

I suspect some think that you and I are the Rosencrantz and Guildenstern of AudioCircle - providing a little comic relief between sword-fights...

D.D.