[michael green MGA]

Hi sts

Don't think I have the new stands on a page so I just through up a pic of it. This is my medium room system. Kinda looks like a MGA ad sorry.

MGA/Bare Essence outlet
MGA/Maggie1 CD player (Bare Essence Cable/PE)
MGA/CAT mod pre (Bare Essence Cable/PE)
MGA/MA7's amp
Picasso Type#1 interconnect    http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t73-mga-cable-accessories
Picasso Type#2 interconnect
MGA tuning bridge 3   http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t71-mga-platforms-racks-and-amp-stands
MGA mini bridge/canopy (rez rods)
AAB1X1  http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t65-mga-cones
MGA EQP Platform
MGA SPP Platforms BP
MGA 62 Loudspeakers   http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t72-mga-speakers
Bare Essence Type#1 speaker cable
PZCFS&mini   http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t70-rt-pzc-acoustical-
RT Sound Shutters   http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t76-mga-sound-shutters-acoustical-defuse-aeroplanes
RoomTune    http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t57-roomtune-acoustical-treatment
RT DecoTune    http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t23-roomtune-tuneart
MGA Signature Amp Stands

[michael green MGA]

Here is my system:
Rega P3-24
Ortofon 2M Black
Pass DIY Pearl Phono stage
Pass x1 pre
First Watt F5
GedLee Nathan loud speakers
All IC are blue jeans LC1
Speaker cables are canare quad star DIY

How shall I tune?

Please post at least one of your systems. Be as specific as I have.
If you are unable to do that I will delete this post.

Ok, so if you were a client the first thing we would do is look at the components to see if they are opened up. Like on the F5 we would get rid of the cable ties, any shrink wrap. The top cover would need to go, and I don't know what you have for feet, but if rubber they would go. Also the transformer clamp would go (your not shipping it anywhere so it can go). Is it a solid core transformer? Is that an aluminum plate that the board is sitting on? you have to be careful of aluminum cause it has a weird upper mid shift to it and if it's too close to any of your parts it can do some weird stuff, so I would be looking at how to raise the board section away from that. Do you have a down shot of your amp with the cover off? I'm not sure which version you have. I know they have a few looks. From the looks of this I would think that the F5 would be a killer outside of that chassis. Don't know if this is easy on that amp or not. Chassis (I know it sounds weird) do really weird stuff to the sound and until you go case-less it's hard to picture but once out side the case things really open up and get a lot more dynamic. When things are in their cases all that electromagnetic energy plays with stuff. Again I'm not looking at yours but the ones I'm looking at have a nice design for the amps/heatsinc. Their nice and in the open and not too close to anything. If I kept it in it's chassis though I would look at raising that board up. Hard wiring the power cord would be a big jump. People don't realize how much blockage is in that plug step. Over all though that's a clean looking amp and will probably blow the doors off of a lot of amps where all the parts are shoved together. We don't really think of how important space is till we have a component that is open like this. After we got this thing stripped down as far as could talk you into going then we would be looking at what kind of stand would be the best underneath it. but none of this matters until you hear a change, once we get over that hurdle then we start to talk about the mechanical transfer and how these parts might sound their best.

Got to take a break, but if the flamers don't kill me I'd like to keep going through the rest of the system and if we end up seeing if the tuning thing works we can see how to open the system up a bit. But it looks like a good system to work with. Which of their speakers do you have?

[*Scotty*]

Just looking at his amplifier, he really doesn't have much of a problem with how his circuit boards are mounted as they are around 1.5 inches away from the top and the bottom of the chassis and well into the point of diminishing returns for distance away from a metal surface and the problems it causes with regards to spacial reproduction. His transformer could be swapped out for a non-potted version and mounted between a couple of appropriately sized circular pieces of plywood using a brass washer and nut to apply the clamping force. In a perfect world he wouldn't have the green solder mask on the circuit boards, but what are you going to do?

The X1 preamp is more problematic, the circuit board is mounted right down on the floor of the chassis and the XLR jacks appear to be board mounted which means he can't space the board further away from the floor of the chassis. To really attack this problem means a custom chassis with a greater height dimension to allow mounting the circuit board with at least an inch or more of space off the floor of the chassis.
 He might see as much as a 40% increase in image size and recreated acoustical space at the cost of zero resale value on the X1 preamp, not to mention the cost of the custom chassis. Being on the edge of the lunatic fringe is not without its expenses.
I wouldn't take the preamp board out of the chassis due to the potential for RF noise injection into the preamp circuitry and the potential to upset the design of ground plane of the preamp.
looking at his Pearl phono stage he could definitely get a an improvement in the size of acoustic space the phono stage can produce by once again getting the circuit board up off the floor of the chassis. It's hard to tell how tall his chassis is, he might be able to just flip the circuit board over and mount it on standoffs that are only slightly longer than his power supply caps. I build most of my projects this way, the dead bug approach, (ie legs in the air).

Scotty

 

[Guy 13]

Hi all Audio Circle members.
At last, at long, long last we are getting somewhere and something other then the long bla, bla, bla...
(Sorry, don’t want to be rude or impolite, but…)
If you start modifying any of your electrical equipment you should think twice about it.
Already most of the amplifiers, pre-amplifier, phono, etc… 
Have no official approval such as UL, CSA, etc...
If on top of that you start modifying equipment from the manufacturer you might get into BIG trouble if something happen,
like a curious unattended young child poking his pinkies in high voltage (Up to 600V on 300B amplifier) or if something catch on fire, then your insurance company might just not pay,
is that worth the extra sound quality ? ? ?
I think not.
Think about it all my Audio Circle friends!

Guy 13   

[tomytoons]

 

[michael green MGA]

Just looking at his amplifier, he really doesn't have much of a problem with how his circuit boards are mounted as they are around 1.5 inches away from the top and the bottom of the chassis and well into the point of diminishing returns for distance away from a metal surface and the problems it causes with regards to spacial reproduction. His transformer could be swapped out for a non-potted version and mounted between a couple of appropriately sized circular pieces of plywood using a brass washer and nut to apply the clamping force. In a perfect world he wouldn't have the green solder mask on the circuit boards, but what are you going to do?

The X1 preamp is more problematic, the circuit board is mounted right down on the floor of the chassis and the XLR jacks appear to be board mounted which means he can't space the board further away from the floor of the chassis. To really attack this problem means a custom chassis with a greater height dimension to allow mounting the circuit board with at least an inch or more of space off the floor of the chassis.
 He might see as much as a 40% increase in image size and recreated acoustical space at the cost of zero resale value on the X1 preamp, not to mention the cost of the custom chassis. Being on the edge of the lunatic fringe is not without its expenses.
I wouldn't take the preamp board out of the chassis due to the potential for RF noise injection into the preamp circuitry and the potential to upset the design of ground plane of the preamp.
looking at his Pearl phono stage he could definitely get a an improvement in the size of acoustic space the phono stage can produce by once again getting the circuit board up off the floor of the chassis. It's hard to tell how tall his chassis is, he might be able to just flip the circuit board over and mount it on standoffs that are only slightly longer than his power supply caps. I build most of my projects this way, the dead bug approach, (ie legs in the air).

Scotty

Who is this masked man? Scotty! I opened this thread and about flipped. I'm writing Santa today and getting you douple portions. We start looking at our equipment from this view the gains that will be made are huge. And going further than this even gets better. Right on bro!

[michael green MGA]

Let me say I do use the "Room Tune kit" Michael sells, it works well and has in 3 medium sized rooms now that I have used them. These in the positions stated in the diagrams. I got them on a good sale and there is not a whole lot that can't be reproduced by a resourceful wife with a sewing machine.

Now you know why Michael has disappeared the last 15 years.
At least on all the boards.

I have read through this post and feel like most of you. I don't really want to spend the time thinking about this.

Sorry.

You know tomy sometimes you guys come across pretty poorly. You want to get into my time, Ok. if it makes the A-holes here feel better. After burying my wife and baby girl I started to look at life differently. I didn't want to face crowds any more. Tomy, is this ok with you so far, cause I wouldn't want you and your buddy's to be inconvenienced in any way while you hurt others. Oh, maybe you would like a piece of bark from the tree my family crashed into as well right? After dealing with some real audio jerks, oh you might know them, sorry, I found it a lot more peaceful to do other things as I believe I stated earlier. I still did my system tweaking for clients and people who really wanted to take their system as far as they could, but didn't have the desire to do the full blown audiophile thing. They can be an interesting crowd, oh but you know that. When I did become more present in high end again I wanted to take it easier and set my own pace. People on forums for the most part I did not find refreshing or even friendly. Seems like forums in some ways bring out the worst. I don't know why it's just the way it is. In 2004 I started my own forum www.tuneland.info . The forum needed to be archived after a technical problem that I didn't know how to fix at the time so I started the techno-zone so that I could still keep a forum up. The first forum also taught me some things I wanted to do differently on the current forum.

I really did think that now would be a good time to take all the things I have learned and done for others for all those years and turn you guys on to them. Maybe even watch the next very needed chapter of audio be born right here. But you guys are probably right. Most of you would rather be parts collectors instead of people who have desires. You would rather pick on people than learn and share.

Tomy your right, your wives should sit around and build high end audio at their sewing machines and the guys in their garages, cause that's about as far as most of your attitudes have deserved. I have to agree with my friends on this one I'm afraid "their not worth it". As many good people that are here some how these forums still are very undisciplined, and loose cannons. People come along who really care about you and you treat them like dirt.

This is not the High End I want to be a part of. Skeptics, doubters and just plain A****. No wonder the people have to contact me behind the scenes, why would they want to show their face in public with you guys.

Now if any of you want to truly contribute to the better of audio I'm here, always have been but if you let these bad apples spoil this hobby and industry it's on you, not the ones who have spent their whole lives to make it better. I was talking to an industry leader last night and he said he was truly embarrassed by the behavior here. "high End michael has become a joke". I think he's right. with all the power you have to do good, your doing so much bad.

I'm very happy to see the ones here that are thriving with your systems. To bad you have to be in the middle of so much negativity.

I really want to be here, but I'm a real person and I don't see this as real. Some good people in the middle of a bunch of angry boys. Try not to let them turn you into them. And for you old timers, shame on you for letting this take place. Your supposed to be the examples and instead you have been the enablers. i don't care what the topic is, you shouldn't allow this cause it keeps a lot of good folks from getting involved.

Audio Circle Mods and Administration, I have come to you so that I can start a controlled environment with a fair exchange of tuning ideas, as well as help the people who have asked for help with their acoustics. If you think this is a good thing, I'm in, even after the last couple of days. But you want me to crawl this this mud to get there, I'm sorry but I'm way, way, above this and so are the guys who would like me to be involved. they should have to wade through this crap to be able to share or ask. you have my product list and my forum to look at to see if I might fit in. If you decide yes, I'll be here faithfully, but not this stuff. Another audio buddy of mine said "this is an outrage and disgrace". On one hand I agree, on the other hand I see oppertunity and promise, and some of your members have talents that should be praise and followed and not have to go the mud either. If I have a circle I will provide a peaceful place where people can come talk about tuning and the different aspects of it, and you can share your experiences about it and pick up even more tips. I would also provide free acoustical advice for my complete lineup of toys (maybe even give sewing classes for the wives) and bring everything that your audio friends at tuneland are doing here and build the best I can the best sounding systems in the world using some of the best designers in the world. Stock systems as well as extremely tuned. I will put up step by step tuning tips with illustrations so you can either do it DIY or have others do it for you. DIY is a good thing, sometimes not as good as the real deal but that's your choice. I would show you how to get there either way. I wouldn't let you build competitors for me in front of everyone but I will also not down you for your DIY efforts.

Tuneland is about your sound and ways that I and others have found to make it go much further than you by yourself can do at home, unless this is all you do. I think since you guys are into a lot of do its and system tweaking it would be a good thing to have this here. if you have a tweak that we found worked on our test setups we would also plug your tweak. I can't imagine how a circle here like this could do anything but make audio circle even better than it is. The flamers might be disappointed but they could start their own hate forums here and have barbecues. Leg of designer anyone? Get your fresh audiophile ribs here, half off. What I wouldn't do is let non-productive angry people come in and disrupt positive productive listening. If you don't think my points are clear and to the point and ramble go to tuneland and judge for yourself. I'll take the same laid out plans there and do a similar thing here only with your systems.

Also someone mentioned ul stuff. There are ways to tune these products as well, they just may not go as far and each person could decide that for themselves. there are also other stock products that jump to life right out of the gate and we would share those with you too to try.

But here's the thing. This type of stuff has to be done without the audio circle BS. No one cares if you don't like something and need to rant about it cause your needy, I'm here because of things I like, but serious people don't want you around, sorry, it's just a distraction from the fun of productive living.

[Rclark]

Condolences about your family Michael.

One must be extremely thick skinned to do business in audio. You can't please everyone, that's true in life as well, it doesn't matter who you are or how awesome: Ghandi, Mother Theresa, Michael Jordan, Ronald Reagan, Steve Jobs, there will be people who strongly disagree with you or some portion of what you do.

I don't think anyone has said anything beyond mere skepticism, and they must be free to do so. It's not their job to be nice, it's your job to convince them. More proof, results from not anecdotes, but documented proof. Even having people post who have had your tuning service or bought your speakers, etc, would be nice.

Regards, I hope you aren't feeling too bad.

[brooklyn]

And for you old timers, shame on you for letting this take place. Your supposed to be the examples and instead you have been the enablers. i don't care what the topic is, you shouldn't allow this cause it keeps a lot of good folks from getting involved.

Old timers have wisdom of there years although crabby sometimes.

I think your approach could have been better but that’s just my opinion.

While I do believe some of your ideas are solid and have merit, I wont be taking
my equipment apart anytime soon.

If your really here to help, that’s great but if there's a lot of hocus pocus, old people on this
forum will see through it.

Sincerely, Good Luck

[Devil Doc]

Whenever I get the urge to suspend cables, loosen wires, etc. I run upstairs and look at my Radio Shack clock and the feeling goes away. Ironically, it's the best money I ever spent.

Doc.

[Diamond Dog]

...and so it was that Dr. M.Green packed up the tools of his...umm...I want to say"trade?"..., put'em back in his wagon and set off to the next town. And the hoople-heads dispersed and went about their lives, wondering if they would ever see him again.

 Except for me, that is. I'm sitting here with my gear all disassembled on the floor around me ( you would not believe how many little parts there are to a K-03 once you start really pulling one apart...), the buzz from the Magical Elixir long since gone, leaving only a dull ache where the euphoria once was.

And I think to myself: Y'know, I don't even really listen to Aqualung that often.... 

D.D.

[JerryLove]

That extraordinary claims will be met with skepticism is not only expected but, in my opinion, good.

A good chunk of what I do for a living involved mitigation of risk. It's part of my job to figure out what can go wrong, how to avoid it, and how to recover from it. It's a role that demands skepticism of everything and that's not bad, because without that skepticism the company I work for would have had far more fiscal loss that it has had.

Skepticism is not denial (though the latter is not *always* bad either); it is a healthy way to learn. It is certainly superior to the alternative of accepting assertions blindly.

[JohnR]

Err... um, OK guys, it would be OK for you to allow MGA to have some space to say what he wants, there's no need to pile on. I say that knowing that it's been one of those weeks and I've well proven my own lack of detachment, but still, this is the Commercial Zone.

[michael green MGA]

Thanks Rclark

I appreciate the thought and life is good. I'm not sitting in a depressed corner, I just think people should be adults. If you look at some of the threads popping up you will see that the things that I teach and other experts are for real and make huge differences. Yes, maybe at first they may seem weird but once you start to do them you can't live without it. I've been teaching this stuff for so long that it shocks me that people have not reached this point on their own long before I came along.

Healthy skepticism is, in adult life, supposed to be tied to trying. Just like the stands you have your maggies on. This is something you did and found it to be a good thing. You could have laughed at it but you were mature in your approach and it has probably turned into something that you wouldn't want to give up. these positive experiences are what makes a great and healthy hobby. Having fun is cool (you should come to one of my Vegas parties) but for a forum to except some of this stuff is pretty poor in the tasteful department. I'm not just speaking for me I'm talking about some of my friends in the business who are watching this and wanting to show up with paddles. Instead I would think that they will quietly sit by to see these forums fade into dinosaurland or change the tone a little and really add a big boast to a deserved lifestyle.

A volunteer here calling me a scam is not skeptical it's unacceptable. The comments that have been made are far from acceptable and far from skeptical. If I was indeed an industry outsider with no experience and no website and no back ground than maybe, but not this crap. In the eyes of my audio expert friends the last several days Audio Circle has fallen in status greatly.

Your member who says every time I post hundreds are biting their tongue, well I hope the entire audio community sees this thread! They sure are as heck calling and emailing me. "michael you have uncovered why the audio community has kept distant from forums" Does this to you sound like something you want people thinking about Audio Circle, cause it's what is being created. Audio Circle and the other forums have a ton of responsibility and I'm getting emails of disgust and contempt for the behavior. This is what I would call a little more than skeptical. If proof really is in the pudding then I think instead of putting me on trial we as the audio community should be putting Audio Circle in the hot seat.

All the things that I'm saying and doing whether members like my approach or not are going to come out by me or whoever as legitimate tweaks and good practices, but the things that the negative flames here are saying, speak just as loudly about the state of this hobby, and how it got there.

I'm getting emails from AC members saying I tried what you said and it works, but I wonder why they are writing me (don't stop) instead of posting. Could it be because an environment has been created here by a few that keeps people from moving forward. I think so from what I have seen. The question is why? Forums are suppose to "share" people not discourage. If some need to check into an old folks home for the mad, do it, but don't drag the rest us with you.

Audio is about finding good things people. Sure some designers get off track or go too far in one direction or the other but they too will learn as their experience grows, or fade. What Audio Circle is doing "is" important and is historic, but with this comes a responsibility of setting the tone of and for an industry.

BTW Doc Watson was my cousin Devil and it's good to see his picture. Did you know Doc?

[JohnR]

OK, I'm calling a stop to this. Michael, get back on track by tomorrow (my time) or this whole thing gets binned.

Thanks

[michael green MGA]

Old timers have wisdom of there years although crabby sometimes.

I think your approach could have been better but that’s just my opinion.

While I do believe some of your ideas are solid and have merit, I wont be taking
my equipment apart anytime soon.

If your really here to help, that’s great but if there's a lot of hocus pocus, old people on this
forum will see through it.

Sincerely, Good Luck

Hi Brook

Why do you think I am here? Getting rid of the "hocus pocus" is what I have been doing all my life. I don't believe in most of the audiophile crap you guys have been handed. All this absorption and boat anchor products and way over priced equipment, and an industry designed to guilt you into moving up. I am a true extreme audiophile that doesn't buy into the bull that has been spread all over your living rooms. I respect the hobby and if someone wants to buy the jewelry that's cool (that's their hobby). My hobby is based on preserving the signal and delivering it again. If you find something in my designing that doesn't work email me cause I want to hear about it. I believe in being a student of the hobby as much as one of the teachers.

Let me ask you guys this. Are you sitting there with a bunch of sound "killing" products in your room? And you buy into this? Directly killing the sound in your room makes the sound come to life? This my friends is audio BS. Even an anechoic designer would say this is the wrong approach for your room. How do I know this. I built my own anechoic room with the help of Audio Technica. They have been to both of my test rooms and chose the tunable room hands down.

Do you have boat anchor weight equipment? Why? Is it protecting your signal?

Do you have speakers in your living room that is full of furniture? And that speaker, that was specifically designed for a particular room isn't effected by the furniture?

Do you have connectors on you products that are actually bigger than the cable itself? This helps the sound how? Your telling me that you have 22 gauge cables inside of your components, yet you have these huge RCA's, with these huge cables attached to them and they do what again?

Come on guys I'm just the new guy with stuff that works and your having a hard time with something, but it's not audio.

Your cables are sitting on your carpet floor, and it's not being effected why?

Your transformers are sitting in your chassis with delicate signal carrying parts near by and it's not effecting them? Wait a minute, your chassis is helping shield your parts from the outside evils, and yet they are sitting inches from a transformer? Have you googled transformer lately? Does your computer say the same thing that mine does? And you guys have spent all this money on something that is locking this magnetic flux machine in with your signal? The outside signal is more harmful than the inside one you have?

Really you guys are putting all this energy in to debunking me. (here's where I add all my sarcastic remarks)

I do agree with you, you do have problems with me. You have built yourselves into a belief system that is so far out of whack that you spend your time protecting it from outsiders coming in to help you. A lot of this is tied to your failed investments and has nothing to do with me or others like me. For many of you, after all these years, money spent and experiments failed are still not there. Some one comes along with simple methods that do the job with very little money and it flips you out. Sorry, that's call progress. I'm using a receiver right now that tweaked blows thee doors off of what many of you have spend fortunes on and that makes you upset. That's progress. Did you think the computer was going to stay as big as an office building floor?

[michael green MGA]

OK, I'm calling a stop to this. Michael, get back on track by tomorrow (my time) or this whole thing gets binned.

Thanks

gladly!!

Hows was my last post? It brings up audio myths. John, if you want me to write about audio myths than don't let your folks make me into one. If you have a problem than lets deal with it but don't take licence on a public forum making me or my thoughts any less important than any one else's. We would have covered a lot of ground by now if this was done with some consideration and digression.

You want to bin it, bin it, but don't make me out to be the bad guy!

[JohnR]

I don't have mind control over people. Also, time is limited.

[werd]

...and so it was that Dr. M.Green packed up the tools of his...umm...I want to say"trade?"..., put'em back in his wagon and set off to the next town. And the hoople-heads dispersed and went about their lives, wondering if they would ever see him again.

 Except for me, that is. I'm sitting here with my gear all disassembled on the floor around me ( you would not believe how many little parts there are to a K-03 once you start really pulling one apart...), the buzz from the Magical Elixir long since gone, leaving only a dull ache where the euphoria once was.

And I think to myself: Y'know, I don't even really listen to Aqualung that often.... 

D.D.

Look at it positively. Here is your chance to put your Esoteric and Manley all on one chassis. lol

[JerryLove]

I do agree with you, you do have problems with me. You have built yourselves into a belief system that is so far out of whack that you spend your time protecting it from outsiders coming in to help you.

I really tried to step away and let this run its own course.

What you have right there is what we call an "ad hominem". It's a logically fallacious argument that asserts "what you said is wrong because of who you are".

In addition to being fallacious, in this case it's also dual-edged. As a person whose professional identity is tied to your belief system that lifting wires off the floor can "tune" them; you spend your time trying to convince outsiders whose space you've walked into to agree with you (and if they don't they are, to quote you, "A** holes").

Sadly your help, in addition to having the occasional derogatory profanity, has been very short on specifics, your responses to specific questions have been generally vague or non-existent, and where you have made testable factual claims (like your claim that changing a speaker's baffle would create an audible change which would not be measurable on equipment), they've been wrong (it is measurable).

Perhaps insulting the "skeptics" and "A** holes" who were here before you, insulting AudioCircle itself, publicly (rather than through PM) criticizing the mods whose sand-box this is, and regularly stating that nebulous "audio professionals" believe that everyone here "isn't worth the time" is not the right tactic. I can say that from where I sit, it does not appear to be working.