[rollo]

  We have a large community here. There are science based opinions and hands on based opinions. At times without measurement proof there will be skeptics. Which I respect. However what I do not is someone who does not even try before commenting.
   Resonance control such as RFT [ resonance free technology ] used in satellites for better resolution. I believe Halcro made this one of their design goals. Controlling or tuning the micro phonics is tough act. Expensive in manufacturing and practice. So trade offs are done. Separate outboard power supplies as well as dual mono cost more.
   One of club members who builds his own everything designs a micro phonic unit. In his opinion it makes the music come alive. When one taps the piece you here it through the speakers like a micro phonic tube. When he tapped the preamp I was taken back since all I new was a tight heavy enclosure was better. Live and learn.
    One day we went over to club members home for a listen. When we walked inti his room we were taken by all these carpenter clamps squeezing his gear. We laughed at him, made a few jokes. Then he turned it on. We apologized for teasing and had one of the best listening sessions at his home. Go figure. A reviewer BTW.
     If you ever get to NY come o over for a listen.



charles

[ServerAdmin]

I've removed some posts in this thread. Please don't make me do it again.

[michael green MGA]

Hi C17, Charles and the rest of the gang.

SA I didn't see the posts pulled, but what I do see is a thread that is starting to take shape in a constructive way. Thank you

Busting myths comes through doing and once you get started it becomes a bit of a game, a good game. Charles your clamp story reminds me of our proto sessions. Like the speakers in my small room now, it can get pretty strange looking.

Speaking of speakers, all the ones I use are now free resonant and here's something you guys can try. Many of you have box speakers and in those box speakers you are going to find dampening most of the time. If you have been reading you know that I rarely use direct absorption, it can easily take away from the performance of a room and also a driver. Start removing the dampening material until you hear the speaker start opening up. You can hear this by having your ear close to the woofer hole. At first it will sound very dead talking into it but as you remove what ever the dampening is you will hear the inside starting to sound more live. You can even move the dampening around till it starts sounding more like your voice when you talk outside of the cabinet. If inside it still sounds dull compared to what you hear when you pull your head away you can get carpenter paper and put it in the cabinet covering the dampening just leaving a little space for the waves to get to the burner yet not all burner. Close your cabinet up turn it on and listen. Your speaker is going to sound a lot more open. Dynamic range will improve and the music will be more balanced. You may need to play around till you get this how you want it. Of course the more musical your cabinet material is the better it will sound.

Think this is dumb? Ok take that same dampening material and walk up to your speaker playing. Get your ear close to the driver and listen to what the dampening does when you get it close to the driver as well. Yes, that dampened sound is distortion. Pull the dampening away, hear your voice open up? Put it back and it sounds closed down again. This is what is going on inside of your cabinet and why the music is not expressing itself. If you want your speakers to sound right in your room and not fighting your room than make the insides of your speaker sound more like the outside. Your going to also notice that your volume goes up. This means your amp is not having to work as hard pushing the sound into the room. If all goes well your going to notice something else. Your drivers are not moving in and out as much yet there is more sound.

There are many many more tricks to come if you want and all of them will start chopping away at some of the things we have been told are truths but are actually myths.

[Guy 13]

Hi Michael and all Audio Circle members.
I know, I have not been very nice to you,
what can I say other than… well, I am sorry.
But I must say, that you more or less provoque me with some
illogical things you wrote.
I still don’t agree with your outlet plate cover removal
and any stuff that involve electricity.
Don’t even leave that to the professional.
As a matter of fact, the professional will probably refuse to do such modifications, if he does them, he’s not a professional.
Too dangerous and risky…
What I agree and maybe I will even try,
because it makes sense
is the damping material re-arrangement.
It makes sense, up to a certain point.
I have read all your posts and I hope that more logical and not risky recommendations of yours will pop up.
I am not a narrow minded person, but stuff must make sense and if it does not, you have to go into detailed explanations, so I can understand.
Well, that’s all I had to say.
Hope there are no hard feelings, takes my previous post as bad jokes…

Guy 13

[michael green MGA]

Hi Guy 13

I think what has happened is the same as what has happened before here. I have gotten feedback from a lot of members and a lot of ex-members about Audio Circles reputation. AC and AA and others have become what most of the audiophiles look at for guidance. It and the others have also become ranting centers. I'm sure there is lots to rant about and maybe there should be a rant section for these to be made, but as forums in general grow and mature they will take on a new face (as all things do) and the idea of a discussion forum is going to win out over a flame house, which is what at least for now these forums are being referred to as. But as the SA has done all things can be presented in a way of respect. Still opinions, but respect based and not anger based. Hey, that goes for me too. One of my friends said, mg I've never seen you loose your temper like that.

I am not the judge of who does what. I am an engineer/musician turned designer. If you look at my history you will see that I have built literally (audio camps) that were put together for the sole purpose of exploring audio and energy from a practical side. I've had hundreds if not thousands of engineers, technicians, instrument manufactures, scientist, hobbyist, musicians, education leaders and many other interested types visit and evaluate the "Tune". Your audio journals are full of people I have tuned with and for. With this I have never looked at myself as one of the audiophile groupies. I never followed the pack and they will tell you so.

Do you guys remember when Audio Advisor sold off a bunch of my speakers at ridiculously low prices? It gets brought up even now. The reason these went to Audio Advisor is because I rejected them. I rejected the whole production run and didn't take a penny for them and let the parenting company of this project do what they wanted to with them. Keep in mind they had already gotten very good reviews, but that's not my style to do less than what I am up to. The products were built in one of the big 5 speaker productions factories that supply or supplied your high end speakers. I could read you off a list of the brands and you would say "wow". Fact is they failed to meet my listening standards and although they were said to be better than the competition I couldn't be a part of something for the sake of money or the accepted norm. This probably cost me my seat amoung the hot speaker designers of that time, but I couldn't do it, not if it meant those compromises. It cost me more than this, it also cost me a very good friendship all because of heavy MDF and rubber grill mounts.

Sometimes in our community some build stories or fiction because, I don't know, boredom or because we can. But this has never been my way or desire. I am a huge fan of the development of products being created to turn energy into something useful outside of audio and within. I'm not here to state building codes or tell any one to do something that they can or can't get approval to do. What I do is research the things that work. Things that make your audio signal as good as it can be. Loosening the screws on your wall outlet is not against any code that I know of. I don't believe there are codes against this practice on any of your audio equipment. I do go a lot further than this for listening but that's for me and my listening. How far you go is up to you. My job is to find all the things in the signal path all the way through the path and see their effect on the out come of the music. If it were more dampening I would say so as this has become the popular path and you all know how I need to be popular . The fact is the industry got onto a one way street mentality and the more you bought the more the fever grew. Bigger and bigger and more $$$ and even more $$$ became the audiophile norm completely bypassing the conditions that make the audio signal perform at it's best. When I started really pressing the issue the industry turned a cold hand to me because they had their gravy train in full force. Simply I couldn't play by those terms. there was so much BS being thrown at you guys and you folks threw your wallets at them without balance.

Now we are just at the edge of seeing the balance start to shift and I with or without you am going to make a voice. Once you guys start lightening up the load across the board and find all the places where the signal can be set free, and get rid of your fear of distortion, which is nothing more than a guilt trip, you are going to (if you haven't started already) to head the other direction. I have over the last few years found this balance, but in no way do I feel that I am on this path alone. Earlier some of you, or at least one pressed me to share my equipment list. I could tell where this was going right from the start (been around the block). If my private system could some how be discredited than this could add to the fuel of keeping the new and crazy ideas out. Well hate to tell you this but even if you guys heard my simplest system in tune it would embarrass the high ends best of the best. WHY? Because I'm listening with an audio method and not a bunch of products thrown together with their A,B,C,D class listing and crossing my fingers. As mad as that makes some of you in most cases it's the truth. Charles is not joking when he tells you about the cable, and I'm not kidding you when telling you about the other stuff, and if you let me I'm going to keep going till a few of you start to do. I don't expect miracles right up front but all you need to do is hear the difference small or big and you will know there is something here. After this you can begin chipping away at audios fiction and start rewriting the book that is way over due to be rewritten.

Guy 13, what is electricity made of? How does it form? How does it travel? What does it travel through? How does it travel through it? you are telling me you are the man that knows these answers so lets work together to share the answers and not give out anything but the truth of findings. If you do these things with me than we can come to conclusions, I guarantee you though that your findings done under the same conditions will be absolutely the same as mine and the rest of the "Tunees" that have been doing this for years.

Jerry, sorry dude I'm sure you mean well, but I don't listen with specs, I listen with my ears and so does the whole music loving community. I have employed more than my share of techs and my eye balls could care less if I ever see another chart or graph.

Mr Aqualung, my recording of this sounds excellent, maybe you and I can listen to this someday together.

C17 cool open mind

Charles, your my Audio Circle hero.

Guys, I have no reason to fool you. You have the same tools I do. You can even pretend you went in and did these things and they gave you no results. Problem is what are you going to do about all those people who are doing them with great results. I guess your calling them under my spell or not free thinking or fools too. Nope these guys are serious listeners with minds of their own.

If you keep this thread open I am going to completely debunk the fiction. Whether you try it or not is up to you, but first let me tell you something. Some of the what you would call low end or mid fi companies have already been building products base on what I'm telling you and from my ears and the proven ears of others these few products tuned are kicking the butt of most of the high end products out there.

[JerryLove]

Jerry, sorry dude I'm sure you mean well, but I don't listen with specs, I listen with my ears and so does the whole music loving community. I have employed more than my share of techs and my eye balls could care less if I ever see another chart or graph.

Your suggestions pose real risk to human life and property: mostly from electrocution and fire.

[werd]

Taking the lids off gear is nothing new. It's recommended for digital IMO. The thing is you lose the safety functionality of the gear. In my house i can't do it. Once you start tinkering with one thing it always seems to have a direct affect with another tweak or tuning. Moving  down the path of opening up the soundstage usually means the system needs to be reigned in at another part. Whether it be cables or components or volume levels. It's just the way it is with this hobby. So all of his recommendations come at cost and in the end it may not be what people want out of their system for soundstaging and sound performance.

I am going to try losing the outlets at my amp connect this weekend to see what happens. It can't hurt so why not?

[Devil Doc]

I've always had a problem with folks who say they get hundreds of PM's and e-mails from supporters, but those folks never reveal themselves in the thread in question.

Doc

[jtwrace]

Taking the lids off gear is nothing new.

Did you do it to your new BDA-2?

I hope not. 

[michael green MGA]

Taking the lids off gear is nothing new. It's recommended for digital IMO. The thing is you lose the safety functionality of the gear. In my house i can't do it. Once you start tinkering with one thing it always seems to have a direct affect with another tweak or tuning. Moving  down the path of opening up the soundstage usually means the system needs to be reigned in at another part. Whether it be cables or components or volume levels. It's just the way it is with this hobby. So all of his recommendations come at cost and in the end it may not be what people want out of their system for soundstaging and sound performance.

I am going to try losing the outlets at my amp connect this weekend to see what happens. It can't hurt so why not?

Right on the money! Opening up is only part of the equation. Tuning must work both ways. As in instrument building you want to open up and tune in. And as you said this is nothing new. People have been tuning for years.

[michael green MGA]

I've always had a problem with folks who say they get hundreds of PM's and e-mails from supporters, but those folks never reveal themselves in the thread in question.

Doc

Actually I have not received many PM's. Most of them have been emails directly to my personal yahoo account or biz account or calls. But is the topic here, audio myths or michael's mail count? I think that people are finally starting to get into the spirit of this thread. Wouldn't it be a plus for Audio Circle if we could keep it on some what of a moving productive topic. As far as your counting my emails come on over, but as far as this staying on track I believe, correct me if I'm wrong but we are starting to move forward here.

[michael green MGA]

Your suggestions pose real risk to human life and property: mostly from electrocution and fire.

jerry

Thanks for your safety concerns. I have gone over my comments with my lawyers and they have told me that I have stayed within the boundaries here.

1) use 15 amp fuses not 20
2) loosen all the outlet plates in your audio room (plates that are on your audio system line)
3) loosen the screws on all components
4) take covers off the components
5) remove rubber feet from any component
6) use low mass IC and power cords
7) hard wire pass the AC connection on the back of components whenever posible
 use as low of a gauge speaker cable as posible (I use 22 gauge)
9) loosen the screws where the RCA plugs are attached
10) take the barrels off of your RCA's
11) replace the cups on the back of your speakers when posible to a lighter weight one
12) place the speaker cables in without tightening them
13) loosen screws on drivers (just cracking them usually is enough)
14) remove heavy dampening products or drapes from the room
15) treat the upper corners of the room with barricade acoustical treatments
16) if you have a rack against the wall in front of you try pulling it out a little (usually in 8' tall rooms 16 to 18")
17) take grills off speakers
18) make sure speakers are not sitting on carpet
19) take out transformer locks when posible
20) remove any ties on any cables
21) try not to let cable touch each other inside the components
22) if your a tweak or have a technician remove your transformer away from circuit boards

Warning, any tweaks suggested that might involve any electrical applications should first be cleared by your electrician or product company. MGA/RoomTune takes no responsibility for any electrical modifications you choose to do on your equipment. MGA, has done these experiments in lab conditions and is only giving the results based on a safe environment. Always review any parts to be sure they meet federal safety standards. MGA/RoomTune is not endorsing any modifications outside of regular safety codes or manufactures warnings. Any mods you do, you do at your own risk and outside of any responsibility to MGA/RoomTune or Michael Green.

[michael green MGA]

Did you do it to your new BDA-2?

I hope not. 

Who are these Volunteers, and what do they do? I keep seeing volunteer pop up and am still trying to figure out their official Audio Circle role. Is there a place I can go to tell me in more detail exactly what the function is of the Audio Circle Volunteer?

[JerryLove]

Michael,

Please don't address posts to me unless you want responses. I will presume all future posts addressed to me as invitations to honestly respond... which I don't think you want.

[Rclark]

IMO I don't think his suggestions would amount to anything on my amps, so I'm good there. The technology is beyond to where loosening a screw is going to do anything. I think his suggestions are probably best for vintage type gear, etc, or the standard, old school classes of amplifier.

Also my speakers, with the hardwood frame and planar speaker are pretty much likened to a musical instrument, there's not a whole lot to do there. Plays anything and if I need extra midbass, I've got something for that.

 Interesting thread though. You seem to be suggesting the total opposite of some people. Less treatment, less bracing, etc.

 Michael, I'd like to know where you derived these solutions from, and if you have any measured performance to back up your claims. If not, that's okay too, but if so then now would also be a good time to call in backup. If you have helped a lot of people with their systems, I would suggest they step forward and give us their experience. People from this forum or credible known entities from other forums would be optimal.

Some of the forum veterans seem to be siding with you, some not. Taking it from here will require more than long paragraphs.

[michael green MGA]

A big part of busting audio myths is seeing the language used and graphics made. The audio industry has and always will use a terminology unique unto itself and should sometimes be explored on a listening or testing level before accepting. However when testing the tests from my earliest tech days till now I have seen one consistency. There is no consistency. I have met and worked closely with some of the audiophile testing world (you can see reviews of this) and have seen one big myth that has carried on in the audio industry for ever. These are only numbers and these numbers are only as good as the testing gear and how well it is tuned in. These findings are also condition based. No one test space that we have ever found gives the same results as the next. I cover this on tuneland often, but let me give you examples.

You have a pair of speakers and you are going to match them to your amps. You are hunting for an Ohm rating and an SPL 1w per 1m.  There are a bunch more but I'm making it simple. Early on in my speaker days I had folks who wanted me to include test reports as part of the manuals. The same speaker went to 3 testing sites and reports were made. None of them came back the same. Upset, I explored these sites to find out that with the exact same speakers from whom ever the results still came out differently. There was no standard! I took the same approach and sent speakers to different audiophiles home and the result that came back were so unsimilar you could not tell that this was even the same speaker. I did the testing with not only mine but other companies products. Same thing. I decided to make a little tour of my own and discovered an interesting point which was my suspicion all along. Test are only good for that particular testing session in that particular environment at that particular time with that particular equipment both audio system and test.

[Devil Doc]

Rclark: "If you have helped a lot of people with their systems, I would suggest they step forward and give us their experience. People from this forum or credible known entities from other forums would be optimal."

You forgot something.

Doc

[michael green MGA]

IMO I don't think his suggestions would amount to anything on my amps, so I'm good there. The technology is beyond to where loosening a screw is going to do anything. I think his suggestions are probably best for vintage type gear, etc, or the standard, old school classes of amplifier.

Also my speakers, with the hardwood frame and planar speaker are pretty much likened to a musical instrument, there's not a whole lot to do there. Plays anything and if I need extra midbass, I've got something for that.

 Interesting thread though. You seem to be suggesting the total opposite of some people. Less treatment, less bracing, etc.

 Michael, I'd like to know where you derived these solutions from, and if you have any measured performance to back up your claims. If not, that's okay too, but if so then now would also be a good time to call in backup. If you have helped a lot of people with their systems, I would suggest they step forward and give us their experience. People from this forum or credible known entities from other forums would be optimal.

Some of the forum veterans seem to be siding with you, some not. Taking it from here will require more than long paragraphs.

hi R

I was starting to cover the testing thing when you put your post up. As you can probably tell I like your system approach (haven't seen it all) as well and from what I have seen it fits you and you have tuned some. Can you go further is up to you, but I can sense that it has taken you where you want to go and that's the coolest thing there is in my book. Having a system that does what you want is a prized possession.

[Rclark]

Rclark: "If you have helped a lot of people with their systems, I would suggest they step forward and give us their experience. People from this forum or credible known entities from other forums would be optimal."

You forgot something.

Doc

 I tried puzzling it out, but perhaps my whiskey and coffee has impeded what I might have left out. Let 'er rip Doc.

[Devil Doc]

Sorry for the confusion. My statement was directed toward Mr. Green. He didn't address your request. And as far as letting 'er rip, I'd rather not get banned over this.
Doc