[doug s.]

wow, what?  simple rule - industry participants need to identify themselves as such.  what's so difficult about that?

doug s.

[satfrat]

delete!

[James Lehman]

I still own all the speakers I showed you. I'm a software engineer. 

[doug s.]

I still own all the speakers I showed you. I'm a software engineer. 

so...  you do not offer loudspeakers for sale?  you do not offer design/manufacturing services for custom speakers?   

lemme guess - that site you linked is not your site, yust someone who coincidentally has the same name you have, and you also coincidentally happen to own all those same speakers, and you also coincidentally happens to live in akron ohio?   

doug s.

[satfrat]

delete!

[doug s.]

search "AJinFLA " for someone in the same "professional" situation as you; he lists his mfr status in his moniker...

doug s.

[Letitroll98]

Settle down fellas, I have a feeling that James has his day job as a software engineer and is dipping his toes in the speaker business.  98% of the "adverts" on his site are for the software business.  According to the guidelines if you make a couple of this and thats for folks who pay you a couple of dollars you don't get branded as a professional.  His posts have been quite general in nature and nothing blatantly advertises his products, except the link to the "Metal" line of speakers and the consulting page on his site which I don't think he linked to.  I would prefer if he removed any links rather than send the thread to Quarantine for Admin to do it.  The rest of his posts are benign, no matter how opinionated they may be.  Since no one seemed to want to post on the thread I linked, here's a quote of what I wrote there:

Hey James.  Help a poor, befuddled facilitator out here.  Reading your posts and website, I can't really determine if you're an enthusiastic hobbyist offering open source designs, or a speaker building consultant selling your services.  I think what I'm seeing is the former, with your "day job" being the computer consulting company.  But then I'm seeing the Metal webpage with this text, "To inquire about purchasing Metal or to have a custom sound system designed and built for your home, contact James at james@a******.com"  Could you be so kind as to clear up your role as an industry participant either here or in a PM to me?

FYI, here's the link to the guidelines regarding industry participants and AC: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=about;area=industry-members

I think this pretty much says it, except to welcome James to AC.  Pretty crappy welcome to a new member who posted a lot of neat stuff.  Sometimes we don't show our best face right off, it happens.  I don't think I'd be back if it were me.  Maybe we could all think about how we might be more helpful and welcoming to a new member who might not be aware of all the rules and guidelines on AC.   

[doug s.]

letitroll, i agree w/what you said.  my first post about it was a bit low key.  i guess i reacted a bit to james' reaction, which i felt was being confrontational & not wery productive...

doug s.

[Rclark]

I'd love to see a small box speaker with a 5" woofer and a 3000 watt amp, do you have pics?

[James Lehman]

Geeeeez. I guess I made a splash.   

[navin]

Not sure where to post it. Recently found this link in other Forum, I thought you guys would like look these prices, Polymer Audio call my attention.

As expected Hi-End multi-ways loudspeakers costing in excess plus 20,000 dolars, use cheap drivers, which cost few dolars for a pair of floor standing loudspeakers.

Peak Consult Zoltan - MRSP 34,995/pair
Total cost of drivers per pair = $2950

Joseph Audio Pearl - MRSP 23,500/pair
Total cost of drivers per pair = $1460

Avalon Eidolon Vision - MSRP 23,950/pair
Total cost of drivers per pair = $1490

Verity Audio Sarastro - MSRP 29,995/pair
Total cost of drivers per pair = $2380

I just ran into this thread. We forget that many manufacturers do NOT pay retail prices for drivers. I would suspect the prices they pay are about 30-50% of retail.

So lets assume a $20,000/pr has $1000 in drivers ($2000 at retail). Add another $300/pr for passive crossovers and another $1700/pr for the nice veneered boxes they make. Total cost about $3000/pr.

For example nice cabinets can be got here http://www.signatureaudiolabs.com/

The manufacturer then has to sell the speaker to the dealer at say 3x cost so that becomes $9000/pr to cover packaging, transport, duties, taxes, warranty claims, interest, depreciation, amortization of design cost (salaries, lab equipment, etc) and other overheads.

The dealer then adds about 30% (in this case $3000 per speaker) to cover their overheads so now the speaker costs $12,000.

Beyond this I cannot find any more justification.

So yes a speaker whose drivers retail for $2000/pr should retail for $12,000/pr (6x retail cost of drivers) maybe manufacturers know more. I do know that many high end manufacturers go out of business.

[FullRangeMan]

I'd love to see a small box speaker with a 5" woofer and a 3000 watt amp, do you have pics?

Anthony Gallo LS5 had twelve 4inches woofeRS:

http://www.roundsound.com/reference-5ls.php

[James Lehman]

Ughhhhh. 

I get math. I love physics. I know how to operate a table saw. I make speakers.

I like to make my dreams.

[FullRangeMan]

On the magazines maga speaker as these are elevated to heaven status... So some naive believer reader pay top money for it.

[James Lehman]

Think. Listen and decide for yourself.

"Delete!"

Gotta love that.

PS. There is a certain irony here in this thread based on just what I wrote.....

I mean, WTF?

[JLM]

Sure there's life left in 2-channel stereo.  The Trinaural processor and extra speaker ain't cheap/free.  And then there's "audio sideline" applications: casual listening, desktop, 2.1 HT, or domestically approved set-ups. 

Speaker manufacturers should love (and be promoting) the Ambiance/Mode Canceling Array - Trinaural ideas that requires 6 speakers versus 2 for stereo.  Or at least like Duke LeJune, integrate the Ambiance/ModeCanceling Array concept into a single cabinet.

But mega priced speakers are a joke regarding the need for distributed bass and that many (most?) of the rooms they're set up in are almost complete after thoughts.  To give credit Duke also sells distributed bass options.

[navin]

Ughhhhh. 

I get math. I love physics. I know how to operate a table saw. I make speakers.

I like to make my dreams.

James I understand you, I really do. Over on another thread I just confessed to having built over 100 pairs of speakers over the past 30 years. I can understand your apprehension of getting into the speaker business. It is a rough world where many manufacturers go out of business and few make really big profits (Wilson, Vandersteen etc are exceptions).

[Photon46]

I just ran into this thread. We forget that many manufacturers do NOT pay retail prices for drivers. I would suspect the prices they pay are about 30-50% of retail.

So lets assume a $20,000/pr has $1000 in drivers ($2000 at retail). Add another $300/pr for passive crossovers and another $1700/pr for the nice veneered boxes they make. Total cost about $3000/pr.

For example nice cabinets can be got here http://www.signatureaudiolabs.com/

The manufacturer then has to sell the speaker to the dealer at say 3x cost so that becomes $9000/pr to cover packaging, transport, duties, taxes, warranty claims, interest, depreciation, amortization of design cost (salaries, lab equipment, etc) and other overheads.

The dealer then adds about 30% (in this case $3000 per speaker) to cover their overheads so now the speaker costs $12,000.

Beyond this I cannot find any more justification.

So yes a speaker whose drivers retail for $2000/pr should retail for $12,000/pr (6x retail cost of drivers) maybe manufacturers know more. I do know that many high end manufacturers go out of business.

I've followed this thread with some interest and I suspect these figures and percentages for breaking down the production costs of expensive speakers and electronics are inaccurate in the case of products from high cost of living countries like Germany, Denmark, Sweden, etc. If you'll look at the provided link to the factory tour of Tidal Audio in Germany, I think one would have an easy time believing more than $1700 goes into the production costs of Tidal speaker cabinets. Multiple coat applications of lacquer to create a thick and glassy piano lacquer finish involve very labor intensive and costly production processes. These are made in Germany by workers who are earning higher wages than Americans. Tidal is paying taxes, pension costs, and health care costs that are much higher than US businesses are. These wage and tax factors alone contribute more than a fair share to the costs of their speakers. Look at the facilities these items are produced in, this isn't some mom and pop, here today and gone tomorrow type operation that characterizes some boutique high end lines. The assumed $300 figure for crossover production costs is an unlikely cost target if you look at the quality of parts involved and the cost of parts and labor. In the instances of the many manufacturers who now outsource all cabinet manufacturing to Chinese sub-contactors, previous assumptions of costs are probably more in line with reality. The thing discussions like these frequently fail to fully consider are "economy of scale" factors in a manufacturing scenario. As you say, many high end manufacturers meet their demise from being unable to balance the demands of production costs, marketing costs, distribution costs, and what the market deems a product is worth. www.tidal-audio.de/english/startenglish.htm

[James Lehman]

James I understand you, I really do. Over on another thread I just confessed to having built over 100 pairs of speakers over the past 30 years. I can understand your apprehension of getting into the speaker business. It is a rough world where many manufacturers go out of business and few make really big profits (Wilson, Vandersteen etc are exceptions).

When I look at all of the raw drivers that are out there on the market I have to think there must be a lot of people making their own speaker systems.

[fredgarvin]

Geeeeez. I guess I made a splash.   

Don't be concerned it's the usual suspects, as you'll soon realize. I appreciate some knowledgeable and reasonable opinions, myself.