[2bigears]

    Those T1's look Super Nutso ..... I can't even imagine the cost on those ......

[James Lehman]

I think one of the factors involved in pricing super expensive speakers is that some people like to spend crazy money on these things.

Some company out there will always have the distinction of offering the most expensive commercially available speaker system.

That is very attractive to some people.

Ever do a search for "most expensive speaker" ?

There are (home stereo) speakers that cost one million dollars!

Can anyone justify the real value of that?

[Howard Swayne]

Greetings, newbie to this site though I have been an audio afficienado for 30+ years. Want some of the best sounding speakers you can get, bar none, and for under $3000. Get a pair of used Altec 604 E Duplex speakers in about a 7.5 cu/ft enclosure with a 16 or so sq/in port. About 98db efficiency, and to paraphrase Harry Pearson " Altec's no price compromise studio monitor. For the engineer who wants to hear exactly what was going into the mike." You can drive them with modest power tube amp and the sound will blow you away. I believe Great Plains Audio (who took over Altec) is makeing new ones with alnico magnets. Howard

LInk to my system, shown at the Capital Audio Fest this summer. You may have to cut and paste it.

http://youtu.be/xsgeNv9zwOc

[satfrat]

H Howard, nice video and a sweet way to introduce both you & your home system to us.  1 question, from the video, I see a power box dead center with the duplex outlets facing the camera. Is that power conditioning and if so, what? Thanks.

Cheers,
Robin

[Letitroll98]

I had the pleasure of hearing Howard's system in person and it was quite impressive.  His system was set up in one of the ballrooms and it had no trouble at all filling the venue with sound.

[Howard Swayne]

H Howard, nice video and a sweet way to introduce both you & your home system to us.  1 question, from the video, I see a power box dead center with the duplex outlets facing the camera. Is that power conditioning and if so, what? Thanks.

Thanks for the warm welcome. That box is a Hydra 8. They, Shunyata Reasearch, say its not a power conditioner, but it certainly does clean up the front end. I plug the power amps direct into the wall. Really high recommendation for Shunyata. I had a minor problem when I was going to demo my system for The Richmond Audio Society (Richmond Virginia...new members and visitors always welcome) and they FedEx'ed me one to have in time for the show. Looking forward to lots of great audio here.

Howard

[mykyll2727]

I think one of the factors involved in pricing super expensive speakers is that some people like to spend crazy money on these things.

Some company out there will always have the distinction of offering the most expensive commercially available speaker system.

That is very attractive to some people.

Ever do a search for "most expensive speaker" ?

There are (home stereo) speakers that cost one million dollars!

Can anyone justify the real value of that?

I think you make a great point overall. But what do you mean by "real" value. The justification is that some people find it very attractive and I'll add have the money to spend for it, and thus that's the real value to them. Does a solid gold fork "function" any better than a stainless steel one? Does gilded china "function" any better than a plastic plate? It all depends on what function means to the individual. To some function means it must look good and or cost alot. Does a flawless diamond stone in a finger ring function any better than a piece of glass in the same setting. To some people indeed it does. And thus it has real value and worth the additional cost.

 I'm surprised that some of the people here miss that given their participation in this hobby. Your own Metal speakers feature mahogany veneers. Their function is cosmetic and not about SQ. Yet one has to determine for themselves if the added cost for looks has any "real" value to them. Considering how many speaker buyers/owners and even DIYers opt for fancy veneers says IMO that to them looks and the additional cost has "real" value to them. Please don't try to tell me that in all kinds of things people don't spend extra money for "names" and consider it a real value to own an item with a certain brand attached to it. Ferrari, Porsche, Cartier, Faberge, Wilson, Boulder, etc. I could go on for infinity. The most expensive pair of stereo speakers I've come across were a pair of midsize towers by Shape Audio and they were just shy of $7mil and yes the cabinets were solid 18k gold. (Something like that stuck in my mind.) Did they have any real value at that price. Yes, for whoever bought them. "Real" value is subjective and based on one's tastes, perceptions, and means. And means often has a great influence one one's tastes and perceptions. Let someone's means have a great shift, either up or down, and see what effect it has on their opinion of "real" value.


I became aware of Polymer Audio long before this thread and on their website they go into great detail to explain the "real" value of that $12.5K diamond mid that they use. They also talk about how Marten uses the same in their Coltrane Supreme at $250,000. Polymer's selling point is that their $25K speaker is a better value than many other designs because of the cost of their drivers compared to speakers that cost about the same or more. Other companies find other means of marketing and justifying their pricing and showing their stuff has real value. I would suggest that $25K is not exactly cheap and well beyond the means of most people. I would further suggest that for most people a $25K speaker is not a real value. Even if it has a $12.5K mid.

[django11]

I remember seeing an article that claimed that beyond a certain price you will sell more if the price is higher.  Basically because you are selling to people who have more money than interest in what they are buying.  50,000$ speakers have to be "better" than 30,00$ speakers.

[doug s.]

I remember seeing an article that claimed that beyond a certain price you will sell more if the price is higher.  Basically because you are selling to people who have more money than interest in what they are buying.  50,000$ speakers have to be "better" than 30,00$ speakers.

+1!  at a certain point, folks are buying it because it is expensive, not because it is good.  there is no other explanation why a company like wilson audio is still in existence.  pretty mediocre speakers, imo, compared to what else is out there, even w/o price considerations......

doug s.

[James Lehman]

But what do you mean by "real" value.

I guess I mean on a cost to performance ratio.

At some point all of this stuff becomes like jewelry. It's more a show of wealth than it is a functional item.

[navin]

I've followed this thread with some interest and I suspect these figures and percentages for breaking down the production costs of expensive speakers and electronics are inaccurate in the case of products from high cost of living countries like Germany, Denmark, Sweden, etc. If you'll look at the provided link to the factory tour of Tidal Audio in Germany, I think one would have an easy time believing more than $1700 goes into the production costs of Tidal speaker cabinets. ... The assumed $300 figure for crossover production costs is an unlikely cost target if you look at the quality of parts involved and the cost of parts and labor.

Photon46, I fully understand you. I have heard Tidal speakers (in Mumbai, India) and appreciate your argument. 
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/monitors-tidal-audio-amea-diacera-signature-black-30mm-t-p-diamond-black-woofer-2012-10-05-speakers-india



Since 1988 I have worked with German partners and do understand the costs involved in Germany in particular. Maybe speakers built in the EU or in Japan cost more than those built in the US just like those built in the US cost more than those built in China (in general).

The computation i provided was for companies like Joseph Audio, Wilson Audio , Eggleston, and Avalon which are all American companies. Even so I am not even sure if a 6x multiple is right. Speaker manufactuers are free to refute this assumption.

I believe that most manufacturers do NOT pay retail for drivers or crossover parts. I may be wrong but I wold expect that they pay less than 50% of the retail price (Parts Express/Madisound/Europe Audio) and it is only right that they do given the volumes the buy.

For sure many speaker manufactuers can spend more than $300 on a pair of crossovers and $1700 for a crossover but lets assume the following:
A tweeter costing say $100 each (200/pr)
A mid costing say $200 each (400/pr)
A woofer costing say $200 each (400/pr)
Crossover ($300/pr)
Cabinets ($1700/pr)
------------------
$3000 for a pair of speakers (parts only). This is an example. You can up that value to $4000 and the numbers will still work. Below are pictures of several such speakers from a variety of manufacturers. What do you believe the cost of parts for any of these would be?

[mykyll2727]

I guess I mean on a cost to performance ratio.

At some point all of this stuff becomes like jewelry. It's more a show of wealth than it is a functional item.

I get what you mean. Sonic performance and not overall performance. Looks, resale value, pride of ownership, brand recognition, etc., can all be performance factors to some if not many. The point I was trying to make is that function is integral to performance. Exactly what function/functions does an item perform? Function and therefore performance varies from person to person. Different strokes. Just because one person's priorities w/regard to performance and functionality aren't the same as someone else's doesn't mean that other person's aren't justified. Indeed they are to them. That's why they spend whatever they do to have whatever it is. Just because you don't share the same priorities doesn't dismiss their priorities. Just as their preferences don't dismiss yours. I would also add that jewelry isn't always a show of wealth for many people, yet without question it definitely is for many others.

 I have to very respectfully ask if sonic performance is your only interest why mahogany veneers? What function do they serve and therefore what do they add to the speakers performance? I don't ask to be argumentative or as any form of criticism. Just the opposite. I only point it out that in some cases some people take a similar approach to their speaker choices. And if they take it to a point far beyond what you would, even to the absolute extreme of spending $7mil for a pair of speakers, it's just that they have a different set of values than you w/regard to function, performance and value. They're not wrong and neither are you. Just simply different. As long as their choices don't infringe upon the rights of others then they're entitled to them whether or not they coincide with someone else's.

[navin]

I have to very respectfully ask if sonic performance is your only interest why mahogany veneers? What function do they serve and therefore what do they add to the speakers performance?

Sure the same speaker clad in black paint of mahagony veneer will sound the same. The reason I assume for mahagony is that some of us like our speakers to look as nice as possible (and if we do not at least our wives and significant others do).

[Redefy Audio]

i think we are forgetting the Intellectual Property Rights here, as high end speakers more often position itself as an appreciation product, the speaker creations is much more than just x + y = z, but it does have certain art, creativity and engineering values.

most people wouldnt have the time and skill to recreate the mega price speakers. although i do see sometimes a simple 2way speakers can sell for $10k

appearance, design, finishing, presence are important, and i think as important as the sound itself when we are talking about $10k plus speakers.

[JLM]

Allow me to add an example (my "babies").  Not mega-priced, but here goes:

The speakers are Bob Brines' floorstanding FTA-2000 (currently $2500/pair plus shipping).  If you're into single driver designs, they've been compared to those at twice the money.

They use Fostex F200A full range drivers ($950/pair from Madisound).

Bob charged me $25 up front to run the design through Martin King's MathCad application as this was a new design.  He only builds once he receives an order, so no volume discounts on any materials/supplies.  OTOH he is retired and does this for "fun" and to generate some "audio fun money" out of his garage.  There is no middle man.

So materials are roughly 50% of the total cost, much higher value than typical vendors can offer with labor, distribution, and retailing expenses.  If you used the above mentioned 6:1 markup then I suppose they would be mega-priced.   

[Redefy Audio]

well thats the difference, where Bob is really after his passion about creating a wonderful product that his clients can enjoy, where as the mainstream company is BUSINESS.

[bhobba]

I know a manufacturer who makes some reasonably expensive speakers and is working on some all out $30k speakers with all sorts of mega stuff such as Duelund Cast capacitors and lining the cabinet with copper (it sounds better than the steel he currently uses).  I have yet to hear any speaker that can show his current best speakers that sell for about $8K with matching stands a clear pair of heels - so I doubt there will be too much of anything out there to best the new ones.

So where does the money go for stuff even more expensive than that?  Simple - margins and marketing markup.  Take a look at Magico for example.  Out in Singapore they launched new speakers with a champagne and caviar breakfast.  They send speakers to audio magazines and show them at all the trade shows.  They sell them through dealers that need large margins of 80-120% to show them to everyone that wants to hear them but only sells a few.  For a product that is sold in small quantities all this adds massively to the cost.

The guy that makes the speakers mentioned previously sells a small speaker like the Magico mini lined with steel and Duelund VSF Copper capacitors for $5K.  Direct comparisons to the $30K Magico mini shows there is not much in it with perhaps a slight edge to the $5K speakers.  How come - well you know about the Mini - you don't know about these speakers - they are sold direct.  Thats where the money goes.

I hasten to add with these differences in price no one is ripping anyone off or anything like that - its simply marketing reality and what dealers need to stay in business and do what they do.  It is generally estimated what a speakers sells for is 10 times the cost of parts.  With the small manufacturer I know that sells direct its something like 100%.

Thanks
Bill 

[Rclark]

 I think it's very cool Tyson's quote about the $1400 Emotiva Stealth 8 active powered speaker  "...they could have been $10,000 for all I know." Just like Ncore amplifiers, people say the same thing about a diy amp. The industry is being turned on its head and hi end is being redefined.

[doug s.]

so, bill - tell us how you really feel about your lenehan ml3's.   

doug s.

[bhobba]

so, bill - tell us how you really feel about your lenehan ml3's.   

Hi Doug

I didnt want to actually mention what they were because its not relevant to the discuassion but since you bought it up they were Lenehan Speakers and the small mini monitors were ML1 Referehnce:
http://www.lenehanaudio.com.au/index.php/products/ml1-loudspeakers.html

The relevant point is the really expensive speakers have the price tag not so much for the technology inside of them but due to marketing costs and dealer markup.  Smaller guys are producing SOTA designs at a much more reasonable price than guys like Magico are doing.

I have to tell you my ML3 Reference has been soundly beaten by the new ML2 Reference at about half the price - thats the $8K speaker I mentioned - not my ML3's - it bests that speaker. 
http://www.lenehanaudio.com.au/index.php/products/ml2-speakers.html

To be fair a few people who have heard both still prefer the ML3's but most are like me and go for the ML2's.

However with the lessons learned from that Mike is working on a new design that I am getting - that's the $30k one I mentioned.  Its isobaric so will be only slightly bigger than the ML2's but will have more low end grunt than even my ML3's.  However the cabinet is smaller so can be even stiffer than my ML3's - which is one reason my ML3's have been bested.  But thats only the start - Mike has all sorts of wild ideas he wants to try such as lining them with copper and a special wiring method he has thought of.

The point though is even with all this wild stuff the speakers are not even within a cooee's roar of other all out designs I have heard of price wise.  You know about those because of marketing - and you pay a lot for that in the final price - but what smaller guys are doing is relatively unknown.

Thanks
Bill