The Truth About Mega Price Loudspeakers

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FullRangeMan

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Re: The Truth About Mega Price Loudspeakers
« Reply #140 on: 27 Jul 2012, 03:51 am »
I like Wilson work in favor to the music in the defunct Wilson Audiophile music label.
Unfortunately all Wilson speakers had Pentagon prices, anyone remember the $3K hammers??

lonewolfny42

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Re: The Truth About Mega Price Loudspeakers
« Reply #141 on: 27 Jul 2012, 04:10 am »
That's Ralph Glasgal's Ambiophonics listening room.  Been in that room several times.  The ceiling is at least 30 feet high.

The Rave at Ralph's.....Link...

S Clark

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Re: The Truth About Mega Price Loudspeakers
« Reply #142 on: 27 Jul 2012, 04:54 am »
I agree on the hours, but not the last part. Amateurs are actually less constrained in some ways than professionals, and not subject to marketing, transport requirements, etc.
I'll admit that the monkeys and Shakespeare reference was over the top just for giggles and grins, but we were talking about making a great speaker.  It actually pretty easy to make a darned good amateur speaker, but I put "great" in an elite company.  And although they aren't constrained by creating a successful business model, the knowledge, ear, experience of 99% of the amateurs just isn't up to the task of creating the absolute tip top SOTA speaker. 

And if a great single driver speaker exist, I haven't run across it.
Scott

DaveC113

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Re: The Truth About Mega Price Loudspeakers
« Reply #143 on: 27 Jul 2012, 06:15 am »

And if a great single driver speaker exist, I haven't run across it.
Scott

Omega and Feastrex... both incredible speakers. Omega is the best value for money, Feastex has some of the best drivers ever made regardless of "full range" or not.

I guess it depends on what you value and what music you like. I will say that in terms of the speakers disappearing, imaging and soundstage, there is no speaker that will beat a 5" Omega or Feastrex regardless of price.

Rclark

Re: The Truth About Mega Price Loudspeakers
« Reply #144 on: 27 Jul 2012, 06:30 am »
RMAF is October right? Still not sure if I can make this one, still putting large amounts of money into system at that time.

Maybe if I can go on the super cheap.

JBLMVBC

Re: The Truth About Mega Price Loudspeakers
« Reply #145 on: 27 Jul 2012, 06:12 pm »
Omega and Feastrex... both incredible speakers. Omega is the best value for money, Feastex has some of the best drivers ever made regardless of "full range" or not.

I guess it depends on what you value and what music you like. I will say that in terms of the speakers disappearing, imaging and soundstage, there is no speaker that will beat a 5" Omega or Feastrex regardless of price.


Quite beautifully engineered Feastrex drivers indeed.

One comment though: in their naturflux drivers magnet ad they claim magnetic flux like water do not like corners and yet just below their monster alnico motor is as square as it can be... i.e. marketing  8)

"it depends on what music you like". Sorry but this is no excuse. Regardless of the music played, classical or reggae, the characteristics of these speakers should not make any difference because if they do, those are bad speakers, period.



DaveC113

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Re: The Truth About Mega Price Loudspeakers
« Reply #146 on: 27 Jul 2012, 06:31 pm »

"it depends on what music you like". Sorry but this is no excuse. Regardless of the music played, classical or reggae, the characteristics of these speakers should not make any difference because if they do, those are bad speakers, period.

I will have to disagree. There are very few systems out there that can do a good job recreating a rock or hip-hop concert, regardless of price. Also, full scale symphonies.... if you choose to have a system that can perform at these kind of volumes and dynamics, you will need to make compromises.

Also, there is the fact that the less you spend, the more you will need to compromise. I do not have money (or space in my living room) to build a system that can sound like a rock concert even if I wanted to while maintaining any sort of claim to be "hi-fi". In fact, GR research's humongous line arrays are the only hi fi speaker I have ever experienced that could do this really well, and I have heard many 6-figure systems that would be a failure in this regard.

I think that according to your definition, ALL speakers are bad speakers, period.

S Clark

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Re: The Truth About Mega Price Loudspeakers
« Reply #147 on: 27 Jul 2012, 07:00 pm »
I will have to disagree. There are very few systems out there that can do a good job recreating a rock or hip-hop concert, regardless of price. Also, full scale symphonies.... if you choose to have a system that can perform at these kind of volumes and dynamics, you will need to make compromises.

Also, there is the fact that the less you spend, the more you will need to compromise. I do not have money (or space in my living room) to build a system that can sound like a rock concert even if I wanted to while maintaining any sort of claim to be "hi-fi". In fact, GR research's humongous line arrays are the only hi fi speaker I have ever experienced that could do this really well, and I have heard many 6-figure systems that would be a failure in this regard.
It seems that for 99.99% of us, compromises are made according to money, space, WAF, etc.  But a great speaker should be able to do everything at a high level, and most things at an incredibly high level.  A single driver speaker would not be a good choice for me, as most of my listening is to orchestral classical- and it just so happens that my choice was exactly what you predicted- the GR-Reseach LS9.  But it has its limitations as well.  I suspect that your single driver speakers may reproduce the girl and guitar sound more realistically than my line arrays.

But back to the premise about Mega Price Loudspeakers, I doubt whether anyone that buys a $100k set of speakers fesel like they have been ripped off just because the parts only sum to a few thousand dollars. There is a lot more than material cost that goes into creating a product and bringing it to market. 
Scott

wushuliu

Re: The Truth About Mega Price Loudspeakers
« Reply #148 on: 27 Jul 2012, 07:15 pm »
Jeff Bagby wrote a wonderful lengthy post on the state of DIY speakerbuilding, including this:

Twenty years ago very few of us could make the measurements or use them like a speaker company could, but that is no longer the case, today we can do almost exactly the same things (believe it or not I have been contacted by several professional engineers asking for permission to use my design tools on their jobs). And because of this we have reached the point where Siegfried’s statement enters in – we can do this and not compromise anything if we don’t want to.

I came away from the MWAF [Midwest Audio Fest hosted by Parts Express] convinced that we are there. We have, as a community, not just as a couple of individuals, reached the point where we can build at a level of performance comparable or exceeding that of the finest commercial offerings. You can quote me on that – I won’t take it back. I saw and heard too many excellent examples of what I am referring to as proof for my statement. This is the current state of the art of DIY speaker building, and it is state of the art.

http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?232888-Personal-Commentary-on-the-State-of-DIY-Speakerbuilding


JBLMVBC

Re: The Truth About Mega Price Loudspeakers
« Reply #149 on: 27 Jul 2012, 07:36 pm »
I will have to disagree. There are very few systems out there that can do a good job recreating a rock or hip-hop concert, regardless of price. Also, full scale symphonies.... if you choose to have a system that can perform at these kind of volumes and dynamics, you will need to make compromises.

Also, there is the fact that the less you spend, the more you will need to compromise. I do not have money (or space in my living room) to build a system that can sound like a rock concert even if I wanted to while maintaining any sort of claim to be "hi-fi". In fact, GR research's humongous line arrays are the only hi fi speaker I have ever experienced that could do this really well, and I have heard many 6-figure systems that would be a failure in this regard.

I think that according to your definition, ALL speakers are bad speakers, period.

So high fidelity to what? Reality? Not a chance.

Dynamics, tone fidelity do not depend on the musical style: a good driver will reproduce equally a violin tone or a drum skin or a human voice. In fact the only moment where you need indeed some volume is for quality bass as no 5" thing will give you the impact needed for that. As an example, the 2 way 4320 featured in the video from Kenrick I posted precedently is certainly not humongous and short of deep infra bass will blow away most products with such a natural, clear, precise and dynamic voice impossible with woofers sensitivity at 88dB/w/m at best as per GR ad... BTW active speakers with dedicated amp for each driver is the way to go: flexibility (frequency/phase/level), superior dynamics, lower intermodulation. And again, one can build a profesional quality system for much less than hyped HiFi gear and keep it for years!


 

DaveC113

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Re: The Truth About Mega Price Loudspeakers
« Reply #150 on: 27 Jul 2012, 07:54 pm »
As an example, the 2 way 4320 featured in the video from Kenrick I posted precedently is certainly not humongous and short of deep infra bass will blow away most products with such a natural, clear, precise and dynamic voice impossible with woofers sensitivity at 88dB/w/m at best as per GR ad... BTW active speakers with dedicated amp for each driver is the way to go: flexibility (frequency/phase/level), superior dynamics, lower intermodulation. And again, one can build a profesional quality system for much less than hyped HiFi gear and keep it for years!

However, when you string a bunch of 88 dB woofers together in a line array it changes things. The GR LS-9s absolutely have the best dynamics I have ever heard outside a concert venue. IMO, there is no possible way those 4320s will even come close, it is a physical impossibility at higher volumes. I heard an uncompressed drum track through the LS-9s that would have destroyed most other speakers.

I agree with the active speaker thing, that's what a single driver is. BTW, my 5" single drivers hit under 50 Hz and are x'ed over to a sub at 50 Hz, 24 dB/Octave (which also is an active speaker). I guess it's not a "true" single driver system. Also, you might be surprised at how versatile they are if you heard them... my statements are on a relative scale, it's not like they completely fall apart when playing loud rock music.

FullRangeMan

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Re: The Truth About Mega Price Loudspeakers
« Reply #151 on: 27 Jul 2012, 08:44 pm »
Omega and Feastrex... both incredible speakers. Omega is the best value for money, Feastex has some of the best drivers ever made regardless of "full range" or not.

I guess it depends on what you value and what music you like. I will say that in terms of the speakers disappearing, imaging and soundstage, there is no speaker that will beat a 5" Omega or Feastrex regardless of price.
Good post. Unfortunately fullrange drivers are not suited to hi SPL of DJ beat box music due the small power handling capability, usually around 30W, for this hi sensitivity is important.

JBLMVBC

Re: The Truth About Mega Price Loudspeakers
« Reply #152 on: 27 Jul 2012, 10:02 pm »
However, when you string a bunch of 88 dB woofers together in a line array it changes things. The GR LS-9s absolutely have the best dynamics I have ever heard outside a concert venue. IMO, there is no possible way those 4320s will even come close, it is a physical impossibility at higher volumes. I heard an uncompressed drum track through the LS-9s that would have destroyed most other speakers.

I agree with the active speaker thing, that's what a single driver is. BTW, my 5" single drivers hit under 50 Hz and are x'ed over to a sub at 50 Hz, 24 dB/Octave (which also is an active speaker). I guess it's not a "true" single driver system. Also, you might be surprised at how versatile they are if you heard them... my statements are on a relative scale, it's not like they completely fall apart when playing loud rock music.

Stack the 4320 and we'll see. I was offering this example as a limited sized speaker that would have dynamics and true tone back in the 1970s...

JohnR

Re: The Truth About Mega Price Loudspeakers
« Reply #153 on: 2 Aug 2012, 09:24 am »
I'll admit that the monkeys and Shakespeare reference was over the top just for giggles and grins, but we were talking about making a great speaker.  It actually pretty easy to make a darned good amateur speaker, but I put "great" in an elite company.  And although they aren't constrained by creating a successful business model, the knowledge, ear, experience of 99% of the amateurs just isn't up to the task of creating the absolute tip top SOTA speaker. 

Hm.

Scott, what percentage of professionals are "up to the task of creating the absolute tip top SOTA speaker"?

With regard to constraints, consider an IB subwoofer. How many professionals design one (for sale as a product)? None, or close to it. Because it's not something you can sell. That's an extreme example of what I meant by constraints.

James Lehman

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Re: The Truth About Mega Price Loudspeakers
« Reply #154 on: 12 Oct 2012, 08:02 pm »
There is a HUGE risk in making speakers to sell to other people, unless you already have a buyer. Not only are they expensive to make, but they take a lot of time. Woodworking involves risk of injury. Speakers are always at risk of being damaged and they take up a lot of space! If you can't sell them in a reasonable amount of time, they become "new old stock".

On top of all of that, they are EXTREMELY hard to market!

For every one person out there who likes the way they sound, there will be a thousand snotty morons who've never heard them who will crap all over them in an instant. There isn't any other manufacturing venture in the world that suffers so much from pure BS opinions over real scientific facts and empirical analysis. NONE.

But the biggest obstacle is almost every other hi-end audio gear manufacture who has ever made it. They work very hard to keep new vendors out of the market. You might have the best speakers for an amazing price, but you won't get them into any hifi shops. The shop owners know that if they display your stuff, many of the other established vendors will yank their products and leave the shop high and dry.

Unfortunately, that is reality.

That's why people sell speakers out of the backs of big white vans! :)

James.

fredgarvin

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Re: The Truth About Mega Price Loudspeakers
« Reply #155 on: 12 Oct 2012, 08:40 pm »
I preferred Quake. Nice post though.

FullRangeMan

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Re: The Truth About Mega Price Loudspeakers
« Reply #156 on: 12 Oct 2012, 09:01 pm »
Also loudspeakers with woofers, tweeters and crossovers become obsolete in  short time, if not selling this year, next year will be new competitors on the markert.

twitch54

Re: The Truth About Mega Price Loudspeakers
« Reply #157 on: 12 Oct 2012, 09:29 pm »
Also loudspeakers with woofers, tweeters and crossovers become obsolete in  short time,


 :jester:  .......keep drinking that Koolaid !

James Lehman

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Re: The Truth About Mega Price Loudspeakers
« Reply #158 on: 12 Oct 2012, 09:40 pm »
Well.... the basic design elements of multi-way passive crossover speakers have been around for a very long time. I don't think speaker designs go out of style as much as the availability of individual drivers does. Let's say you spent a lot of time finding exactly the right tweeter for a multi-way system and you want to make a name for yourself with this particular design. Next thing you know, that tweeter is no longer made. Bummer.

The very best deal that anyone will ever get on an awesome speaker system is to find a builder and make a deal before anything is spent or built.

James.  :)

FullRangeMan

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Re: The Truth About Mega Price Loudspeakers
« Reply #159 on: 12 Oct 2012, 09:54 pm »

 :jester:  .......keep drinking that Koolaid !
There is a avalanche of new multi-ways loudspeakers every audio show and the magazines are always generous in praise the new models.
The Hi-End magazines had a low reputation here, almost every audiophile know its tricks after all these years of scam.