[nathanm]

Try to forgive Nathan, he's another product of the Catholic church......  

I got better!

[Smeggy]

I married a Roman Catapoult once, full church ceremony and everything. The Priest didn't even mind that I wasn't baptised. Cool guy   I did have to promise that any brats I had would be brought up Catholic, little did he know I had no intention of having any brats  

[nathanm]

One less kid in the world?  Good!  One less Catholic kid in the world?  Doubly good! Thank you for your service to society Smeggy!

The Priest didn't even mind that I wasn't baptised.

Baptism isn't a requirement for church attendance, but showering is a good idea.  They don't have air conditioning in some of those joints!

[Smeggy]

Hehe, this was a very old church back in England.. definately no AC in those things   My village church is an ancient little 10th century affair, very cute and picturesque. My second marriage was just a registry office thing in Canterbury, I couldn't afford the cathedral. Besides, me being athiest and she being a non-practicing jew I doubt they'd entertain us anyway   I'm not a religeon basher, I'll marry any denomination  

[John Casler]

Neither the entire hologram nor any individual piece offers direct evidence of the super-natural or God. Yet, buried within the complex majesty of its framework is a set of inter-connected principles that suggest a type of "divine reason" or "logos" guiding its very operation. We find that these inter-connected principles cross over boundries, from one discipline to another and extend in every direction.

As we come to understand them, we see even deeper into this framwork and how the logic extends into the purpose and meaning of our lives. Stepping back from it all, we then can see that such logic could not possibly be the by-product of chance, but rather the result of a greater and more divine master plan.

Hi Bob,

I don't see this at all.  The complexity of perfection doesn't give me any "logical extension" to divine creation.  Since our perception is limitied to what does exist, if it existed any other way, we would perceive that too as perfection or interconnected complexity.

The leap from observing what to us is "wonderous", and making the assumption that it "must" have a "maker" is even more illogical since that means the the "maker" too must have a maker, and so on into multi-mirrored infinitely.

I think assigning the "human" trait of creativity to the forces that "allow or cause" this reality to exist is the "path" that leads most "beleivers" away from my position.

Years ago Jethro Tull had an album called "Aqualung".  On the rear cover there was a "re-write" of some of Genesis, and it said:

"In the begining Man created GOD: and in the image of man created he him"

There is no logic or evidence that any creature (above or) below man has "creativity" or for that matter acts in regular pattern based on planning and desire.  While other creatures do things regualrly, it is from instinct and not "thinking".

Just because we have this "ability" proves nothing except we have it.  To project this ability beyond ourselves has no foundation.  Snowflakes, spiderwebs, and migratory patterns just simply exist in our reality.  "Answering" their exisitance with a divine creativity is based on no logical method of deduction.

So observing how things are and again making that leap that they must have been "created" this way is a human trait in projection.

Just my thoughts.

[doug s.]

well, no one on this earth knows for sure whether or not there is a god, supreme being, or whatever else you may wanna call it.  personally, *i* believe we are part of something much bigger.  can't say whether or not that's a good thing, tho, or whether or not what's much bigger is a good thing.  certainly, tho, it seems hard to fathom that this "bigger thing" is benevolent, or watching out for us...  

assuming, tho, for the sake of sp prez' argument, that there *is* a supreme being that's looking out for us, his argument really falls apart at the end.  he sez:

"...To find such ultimate truth we must transcend our set and adopt the axioms of the next. Logic and the progression of order demand that the answers to the questions and needs beyond the reach of a divine mind must be “revealed” by the mind of the Greater Divinity – the greater set. Dear friends, the answers begin in the heart of man and end in the heart of He that proclaimed to Moses that “I am that I am,” the Ancient of Days, the Alpha and the Omega - the Beginning and the End, the Son of Man, the Most High God, He whose name is above every name and the deliverer of man – Jesus Christ. "

i submit that the last sentence - "...where the the answers begin & end...",  could be changed from "...he that proclaimed to moses...(ie: jesus christ)", to muhammad, buddha, vishnu, *insert favorite deity here*, and none of the above thoughts of sp prez would change much, if at all.  which is why i have to side with nathan in his idea that:  

"...I do feel that religion is a slow-working poison for the mind and a threat to the progress of humanity though..."  

except sometimes, i think its poison can be a bit faster-acting...  

as i have said before, arguing about religion is like arguing about who has the best imaginary friend.  unfortunately, fanatics from all religions take these "arguments" too seriously, & put mankind in harms way.  people like osama bin laden & george w bush come to mind...  and, unfortunately, people like sp prez also come to mind.  people w/ith views like this are exclusionary, & necessarily offend those whose beliefs may differ.  i find it unfortunate for two reasons - 1st, i think it causes evil, in the ways suggested by nathan, & 2nd, sp prez has a product i'd be wery interested in, save for the fact that i cannot knowingly support what i feel is evil.

i recently read something i found quite amusing, that i'd like to share:
========================
Subject: Why can't I own a Canadian?

Background: Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned in any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned by a US resident, which was posted on the
Internet:

Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them. a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev.1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own a Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 5:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan,
Jake
===================================

regards,

doug s.

[jfreeman373]

As Christians we do not follow under the old law of Moses.  Everything you just pointed out is JEWISH faith NOT Christian.  Jesus came to destroy the old Levitical law which was a forshadowing of the sacrifice that Jesus would ultimately endure.  Once he died and rose again the old laws used to cover our sins and recieve forgiveness from the father were washed out once and for good!  Maybe you just don't have enough teaching or understanding to have an opinion on the matter....but yet still use stong words calling righteousness evil.


 

 Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!  


 Isa 5:21 Woe unto [them that are] wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!  


 Isa 5:22 Woe unto [them that are] mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to mingle strong drink:  


 Isa 5:23 Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him!  


 Isa 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, [so] their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

[Smeggy]

So basically your telling us that god is vengeful, spiteful and bitter if we don't tow the party line and grovel at all times... but that god's not evil?!?!

Your quote from Isa 5:24 seems to be the very definition of a nasty, petty minded evil bastard if applied to a person, or am I missing something here?.  

Hmm, sounds like bull to me. You really shouldn't try to defend against accusations of evil by spouting more evil as a rebuttal. Does anyone here see the irony of that defense?  

[Aether Audio]

OK Everybody,

This is starting to get a little out of hand.  You may choose not to believe in God or whatever, but on this circle I’m as close as you’re gonna get.  You can spout off your opinions about God, Satan, Buddha or the little fairies in your garden all you want but it’s going to come to a screeching halt when you slam another religion to make your point.

Doug s. – I don’t have a problem with your opinions, it’s your hypocrisy.  You suggest that my/our profession of faith in Christianity is some how offensive to those whose beliefs differ.  Once, a while back, you mentioned that you wouldn’t have a problem with it if I kept it in church.  Well guess what, every church I’ve ever seen has a great big sign out front telling the world what denomination they are.  I suppose you think it wrong for the Baptists to put a sign outside saying that they’re Baptists because it might offend the Catholics – good grief!  -- Then not to mention the Catholics and their big sign offending the Muslims?

I suppose all the TV evangelists ought to just “shut up" ‘cause little Dougy doesn’t like to hear someone stand up and tell the world what they believe – he gets offended so easily you know.  It’s called “prothelizing” and the Christian Church along with every individual believer is commanded to share ‘the Good News.”  And what about all the missions from this country going to other parts of the world?  Hell, there’s 15 year old kids going to places like Haiti to help feed the starving children there and share their faith with them.  I suppose they shouldn’t do that though, better to let the little bastards starve – right? – wouldn’t want to offend them.  What have you done to help anyone lately?  Those teenagers (and there’s many of them) spend their summer vacations trying to make the world a better place while smarmy little whiners like you sit back in judgment and condemnation of them all.

people like osama bin laden & george w bush come to mind... and, unfortunately, people like sp prez also come to mind. people w/ith views like this are exclusionary, & necessarily offend those whose beliefs may differ.

You crack me up.  Gee, I didn’t know I had so much power.  Just think - me, George Bush and Osama… all in the same sentence!  Guess what, I believe the earth is round too and I suppose I shouldn’t say that either.  Might offend the folks from the “Flat earth Society.”  http://www.flat-earth.org/

You’re a nut.  But that’s OK; I generally like nuts – all kinds.  What I don’t like and will not permit is the defamation of someone of faith that works to help others.  You may not like Dr. Laura and that’s fine.  I generally like her but I think she’s a little harsh and legalistic at times too.  Never the less, you’re not going to get away with posting some half baked, smart-assed comment like the one above from someone that clearly has no understanding or scriptural education, and use it to slam people of faith.  Oh… you didn’t write it?  Yeah, well you posted it so it’s yours pal.  And to think you have a problem with the possibility of offending people…B-R-O-T-H-E-R...what a hypocrite.  If I were a Jew, and particularly Dr. Laura, I sure would be offended.  As a matter of fact, I am anyway – Mr. "Politically Correct."  Your problem is that you don't know what to believe so you're offended at the suggestion that somebody else besides yourself may have it figured out (not really).  From your description of your "bigger thing" it sure sounds like you've got it all figured out. Sounds like you make up your own rules as you go along as well as your belief system.  I guess if you make the rules you can break them anytime you want.  God in a universe of one - that's original.

I shouldn’t even honor that litany of sarcasm with a response, but for others that have already read it and find those passages extreme, a little education is in order.  Those scriptures are taken out of context.  In order to understand Biblical scripture, you must consider it within the context of the time and structure of the society for whom it was intended.

Without getting too deep, the ancient Jews where called out of the barbaric world around them, starting with Abraham.  These people lived in a world where slavery, murder, theft, and gross sexual perversions including bestiality were a natural way of life.  Hygiene was not understood and disease was rampant.  They did not have the benefit of modern science and medicine to guide them in making healthy decisions, neither did they understand how the teachings of their prior mythologies and gods were the source of much self destructive behavior.  

They needed to be “taught” by God in a rather harsh way, much as a severely rebellious child needs to be “shaken up” in order to get his attention.  That is the reason for many of the ancient Jewish laws and traditions.  For instance, since bacterial and viral infections were not understood, how could God explain trichinosis in pork?  We have to salt the heck out of it even today in order to prevent this terrible disease.  Better to just tell them not to eat it.  Oh yeah, did you know you can die from a urinary tract infection? - Easy to get from a woman on her period. They didn't have penicillin back then you know.  This is all pretty easy to understand...IF YOU DON’T TAKE IT OUT OF CONTEXT!!!

So…I am letting it be known now.  From here on out, no slamming such as the above or it will end up in the Galactic Waste Bin.  How do you know what, and what is not permitted?  Well, I’m going to force you to use the God given common sense you should have developed as you grew up.  It’s sort of like pornography – you know it when you see it.  Figure it out…or else.  As long as this is my circle, that’s the way it is.  John Casler seems to understand this, he doesn’t believe in God but he still has good sense and manners as far as how to conduct himself.  I enjoy and appreciate folks like him and encourage others of the same… if they can follow his example.

As far as all you guys that seem to think that religion is a poison – do your homework, will ya?  Do you believe in freedom?  How about every man being equal?  Sound like good ideas?  If it wasn’t for the very religion you slam, you wouldn’t have the freedom to post your smart-assed little snide remarks and comments here, or to do much of anything else for that matter, if it wasn’t for Christianity.  Our entire western civilization and the freedoms you take for granted were the result of the Judeo-Christian doctrines that have developed through the centuries.  Check out your history concerning the Renaissance.  

Find out about Nicholas of Cusa
http://theosophy.org/tlodocs/teachers/NicholasOfCusa.htm
http://www.digiserve.com/mystic/Christian/Cusa/
and a few others down the line.  

The concept of man being made in the image of God led to all sorts of new thinking.  It culminated in John Locke’s essay on Natural Law and the role of government.   http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/locke/

The end result of all this “new thinking” was the United Nations adopting the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in 1948.  
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

 So…shuddup already – or maybe you’d actually prefer Osama’s world? - Or better yet, Carl Marx’s.  The least you could do is form an educated opinion, anyway.

One last thing:  Doug, at least we told you up front where we’re coming from.  We could have kept quiet and then maybe you would have bought speakers from a company that used the profits to support other organizations that “offend” people.  I suppose if we used the profits to personally support the drug and prostitution trades, you wouldn’t have a problem with that.  What if we were Muslims quietly supporting Jihad and Osama?  At least you know.  Oh, and please don’t purchase our speakers, they “speak the truth” too and we wouldn’t want you to be offended by their accurate reproduction.

-Bob

[Smeggy]

Bob, you look soooo cute when your mad   hehe

[nathanm]

"We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart." H.L. Mencken

I suppose all the TV evangelists ought to just “shut up" ‘cause little Dougy doesn’t like to hear someone stand up and tell the world what they believe – he gets offended so easily you know. It’s called “prothelizing” and the Christian Church along with every individual believer is commanded to share ‘the Good News.”

Well, mostly they believe you should send them your money, that much is pretty clear.

Actually, the word is "proselytizing".  I looked it up the Good Book.

And what about all the missions from this country going to other parts of the world? Hell, there’s 15 year old kids going to places like Haiti to help feed the starving children there and share their faith with them. I suppose they shouldn’t do that though, better to let the little bastards starve – right? – wouldn’t want to offend them.

Well, it is probably easier to get people to buy into one's theology when they're starving.  Filling bellies with grain, filling heads with nonsense...

What have you done to help anyone lately? Those teenagers (and there’s many of them) spend their summer vacations trying to make the world a better place while smarmy little whiners like you sit back in judgment and condemnation of them all.

Ouch!!  Boy Doug, you better book a flight to Haiti pretty soon and save all those poor kiddies instead of stealing bread out of their mouths like you normally do you miserable bastard!  But you know....

"It is one of the Christian delusions that Christianity brought charity into the world. It did no such thing. There were plenty of agencies for taking care of the poor and helpless long before Christianity was heard of, and even before Judaism. Both Christianity and Judaism have converted charity into a sort of pious racket. The alms-giver, in return for a trifling expenditure on this earth, will be rewarded with an infinity of bliss post-mortem. This purely selfish note is struck with great clarity by Judaism, and only less clearly by Christianity. It appears also in the other religions of the East. Thus religion has not really promoted charity, but debased it. " - Mencken

That letter Doug quoted was hilarious!  Indeed much mirth is to be had by attempting to answer those tough questions by Bible enthusiasts.  Usually the most ridiculous and outdated Biblical stories are slowly 'swept under the rug' or reinterpreted to be more metaphorical instead of their obvious irrelevant\silly nature when taken at face value.  Inevitably you get the "you're taking that out of context" line to defend a ludicrous Bible verse. But of course Christians NEVER take Bible verses out of context to defend their own viewpoints!

So luckily Bible interpretation itself is evolving (*gasp*! Evolution!?) and adapting to modern life.  Last Easter my church-going family had a Biblical discussion (one I wisely kept out of - concerning Creation I think) and my uncle put it best by saying that such-and-such story was made up to teach such-and-such lesson.  So at least they are not fundamentalists!  The natural progression of this seems to be the eventual abandonment of faith and magical thinking; but it will take many long years.

i find it unfortunate for two reasons - 1st, i think it causes evil, in the ways suggested by nathan, & 2nd, sp prez has a product i'd be wery interested in, save for the fact that i cannot knowingly support what i feel is evil.

Although the box was of divine inspiration (several seraphim helped with sanding and lacquer application, according to the christ in my heart (left ventricle, except on Sundays), the SP Tech power requirements are definitely EVIL!   (JOKE)  That crossover must be a Hole to Hell, cause it sucked up 800 watts when I listened to them and asked for more!  There is some devilry at work here! (JUST KIDDING)  

To clarify, I don't feel faith in the supernatural itself is necessarily evil; it's unfortunate to me yes, but not 'evil' by itself.  Anyone's capable of committing evil acts.  With religion all the knowledge one needs is allegedly contained in a very old book.  That is what I mean about it being a poison for the mind.  Anything that retards free, rational, logical thinking is a detriment.  Luckily, beliefs and actions are not always correlated.

well, no one on this earth knows for sure whether or not there is a god, supreme being, or whatever else you may wanna call it.

Actually there's millions of people who KNOW for sure!  At least that's what they say...well anyway, they read that it was the case and who's to argue with that?

If it wasn’t for the very religion you slam, you wouldn’t have the freedom to post your smart-assed little snide remarks and comments here, or to do much of anything else for that matter, if it wasn’t for Christianity.

More like if it wasn't for JohnR.  I believe JohnR exists, even though I have never seen him.  I guess that is blind faith, which is good, right?

[John Casler]

John Casler seems to understand this, he doesn’t believe in God but he still has good sense and manners as far as how to conduct himself. I enjoy and appreciate folks like him and encourage others of the same… if they can follow his example.

Hi Robert,

I just wanted to say that while my comments might lead one to beleive that I don't beleive, that is not nessessarily the case.

What might be more accurate is that I don't subscribe to a particular assessement from others or even any other source.  My "beliefs" are concepts, based soley on introspection and the simplest of extrospective observance

I have always subscribed to the idea that "if" a "being" that was capable of (for whatever reason) creating this wonderment of reality, did, in fact, exist, that there would be no "difficult to beleive or understand" dogma to wade thru, to reach understanding.

We have to realize that we have the capabilty to "reason".  That is we can combine sensory input into comparative understanding and if it is accurate, have an idea of how things are.

For example the "cycles" of life and death that you mentioned in an earlier post are not congruent with much religious thinking.

The discrpency I find is in the lack of "pre-existance".  In the cycles (using logical deductive reasoning) there would have to be three stages to the cycle when examining them from the present.

1) Pre-existance
2) Present
3) Post Exisitance

If there is "no" Pre-exisitance, then we have broken the cycle and lose the congruency with "Natural Law" (as you term it).

The transition from "nothingness" to existance, would then be more congruent with my supposition that we then go back to "nothingness".

Now keep in mind that like "infinite" and "infintesimal", nothingness is also the same as "everthing".

Any comments? or ideas on that?

[Marbles]

Do you believe in freedom? How about every man being equal? Sound like good ideas? If it wasn’t for the very religion you slam, you wouldn’t have the freedom to post your smart-assed little snide remarks and comments here, or to do much of anything else for that matter, if it wasn’t for Christianity. Our entire western civilization and the freedoms you take for granted were the result of the Judeo-Christian doctrines that have developed through the centuries. Check out your history concerning the Renaissance.
 ...

And then religions tried to coerce us with guilt and or punishment.

It was the founders of the USA who fled religous persecution and made sure we had REAL freedoms without interference from religions.

As I recall the Aztecs were given a choice...be killed or accept Christainity. That is why Mexico is more than 90 % catholic now.  I don't consider their choice a FREE one.

The Crusades are another example of trying to force people to convert...that doesn't sound like freedom to me either.

I'm sure there are many other examples in other cultures where religions took more freedoms than they gave.

That is why I have to seperate a Supreme Being from any man made religion.  In the past man used the teachings of religion to enslave the peoples and enrich themselves.  They did some good and gave us the guidelines in which we as a society should live, but all in all, their "teachings" of a supreme being were for the teachers benifit, to the detriment of those being taught.

So in a discussion of a supreme being, lets try to get away from the religious dogma.  I think it is this dogma which is holding this discussion back.

I'm not sure how you discuss a supreme being without bringing up religion, but for those that bring up an example from any religion, there are quotes from the same religion countering it.

Peace out.

[doug s.]

OK Everybody,

This is starting to get a little out of hand. You may choose not to believe in God or whatever, but on this circle I’m as close as you’re gonna get. You can spout off your opinions about God, Satan, Buddha or the little fairies in your garden all you want but it’s going to come to a screeching halt when you slam another religion to make your point.

perhaps ya missed my point - i am slamming *all* religions!   and where did i say i don't believe in god???  

Doug s. – I don’t have a problem with your opinions, it’s your hypocrisy. You suggest that my/our profession of faith in Christianity is some how offensive to those whose beliefs differ. Once, a while back, you mentioned that you wouldn’t have a problem with it if I kept it in church. Well guess what, every church I’ve ever seen has a great big sign out front telling the world what denomination they are. I suppose you think it wrong for the Baptists to put a sign outside saying that they’re Baptists because it might offend the Catholics – good grief! -- Then not to mention the Catholics and their big sign offending the Muslims?

I suppose all the TV evangelists ought to just “shut up" ‘cause little Dougy doesn’t like to hear someone stand up and tell the world what they believe – he gets offended so easily you know. It’s called “prothelizing” and the Christian Church along with every individual believer is commanded to share ‘the Good News.” And what about all the missions from this country going to other parts of the world? Hell, there’s 15 year old kids going to places like Haiti to help feed the starving children there and share their faith with them. I suppose they shouldn’t do that though, better to let the little bastards starve – right? – wouldn’t want to offend them. What have you done to help anyone lately? Those teenagers (and there’s many of them) spend their summer vacations trying to make the world a better place while smarmy little whiners like you sit back in judgment and condemnation of them all.

i'm not being hypocritical at all.  having a sign outside yer church is one thing.  proselytizing is something else.  something i find appalling.  part of the problem with religion in general, & christianity in particular.  this "good news" is offensive to folk who feel differently.  

while i haven't been to haiti lately (have you?), i have been sending ~$300/year to help feed kids in africa, for the past eighteen years or so.  i know it ain't a lot, but it's something.  and, i *do* speak up whenever i hear folk spouting idiocy about how *their* saviour is the one true path, insinuating that if ya believe differently, yure gonna burn in hell for eternity.  i feel i can only effect small changes, one person at a time.  but, this organized religion thing, i really believe it *is* evil, & could be the death of mankind.  but, i'm not a preacher, or politician, so i just do little things!     bob, do ya really believe that ya would think jesus was the saviour, if ya had been raised in a muslim household?!?  

Quote:
people like osama bin laden & george w bush come to mind... and, unfortunately, people like sp prez also come to mind. people with views like this are exclusionary, & necessarily offend those whose beliefs may differ.

You crack me up. Gee, I didn’t know I had so much power. Just think - me, George Bush and Osama… all in the same sentence! Guess what, I believe the earth is round too and I suppose I shouldn’t say that either. Might offend the folks from the “Flat earth Society.” http://www.flat-earth.org/

no, yure a bit different than osama or dubyah.  like me, yure only doing little things.  but i find them evil, & will react.  to site yust one example that happens to be relevant today, it's these "little things" that got us into iraq.  i'd like to see us get out asap...

You’re a nut. But that’s OK; I generally like nuts – all kinds.

cool!  thanks!!!  

What I don’t like and will not permit is the defamation of someone of faith that works to help others.

someone of faith that works to help others?  sorry, i think that is winning the battle, but losing the war.  almost oxymoronic...  if the paradigm leads to hatred & is exclusionary, then it is bound to fail, no matter how good the intentions.

You may not like Dr. Laura and that’s fine. I generally like her but I think she’s a little harsh and legalistic at times too. Never the less, you’re not going to get away with posting some half baked, smart-assed comment like the one above from someone that clearly has no understanding or scriptural education, and use it to slam people of faith. Oh… you didn’t write it? Yeah, well you posted it so it’s yours pal. And to think you have a problem with the possibility of offending people…B-R-O-T-H-E-R...what a hypocrite. If I were a Jew, and particularly Dr. Laura, I sure would be offended.  As a matter of fact, I am anyway – Mr. "Politically Correct."

if anyone was offended by the "half-baked", "smart-assed" comments, well, as i learned in lie (uh, i mean law) school - res ipsa loquiter - "the thing speaks for itself".  i guess, sometimes the truth hurts!     and, fyi, i *AM* a jew.  

Your problem is that you don't know what to believe so you're offended at the suggestion that somebody else besides yourself may have it figured out (not really). From your description of your "bigger thing" it sure sounds like you've got it all figured out. Sounds like you make up your own rules as you go along as well as your belief system. I guess if you make the rules you can break them anytime you want. God in a universe of one - that's original.

sorry, i know *exactly* what to believe.  it works for me, i'm comfortable in my own skin.  but that's as far as it goes.  to each his own.  unfortunately, it's kinda like a catch-22 here.  organized religion, for the most part, does *not* believe to each his own, & when this proselytizing stuff starts to rear its ugly head, ya, i do have a tendency to react.  cuz, it's evil & causes hatred & killing.

I shouldn’t even honor that litany of sarcasm with a response, but for others that have already read it and find those passages extreme, a little education is in order. Those scriptures are taken out of context. In order to understand Biblical scripture, you must consider it within the context of the time and structure of the society for whom it was intended.

Without getting too deep, the ancient Jews where called out of the barbaric world around them, starting with Abraham. These people lived in a world where slavery, murder, theft, and gross sexual perversions including bestiality were a natural way of life. Hygiene was not understood and disease was rampant. They did not have the benefit of modern science and medicine to guide them in making healthy decisions, neither did they understand how the teachings of their prior mythologies and gods were the source of much self destructive behavior.

They needed to be “taught” by God in a rather harsh way, much as a severely rebellious child needs to be “shaken up” in order to get his attention. That is the reason for many of the ancient Jewish laws and traditions. For instance, since bacterial and viral infections were not understood, how could God explain trichinosis in pork? We have to salt the heck out of it even today in order to prevent this terrible disease. Better to just tell them not to eat it. Oh yeah, did you know you can die from a urinary tract infection? - Easy to get from a woman on her period. They didn't have penicillin back then you know. This is all pretty easy to understand...IF YOU DON’T TAKE IT OUT OF CONTEXT!!!

who cares?  i'm not talking about the kosher dietary laws.  the old testament is, in large part a fairy tale, written by humans.  like the new testament, the koran, & the iliad & the odyssey...  *STORIES*!!!  personally, i found the iliad & the odyssey more entertaining...  

So…I am letting it be known now. From here on out, no slamming such as the above or it will end up in the Galactic Waste Bin. How do you know what, and what is not permitted? Well, I’m going to force you to use the God given common sense you should have developed as you grew up. It’s sort of like pornography – you know it when you see it. Figure it out…or else. As long as this is my circle, that’s the way it is. John Casler seems to understand this, he doesn’t believe in God but he still has good sense and manners as far as how to conduct himself. I enjoy and appreciate folks like him and encourage others of the same… if they can follow his example.

yes, my lord...  and, again, where did i ever say i don't believe in god?  just because i find organized religion & proselytizing harmful & offensive, this does not follow that i do not believe in some unknown greater power or force.  i yust don't embellish it with man-made attributes...

As far as all you guys that seem to think that religion is a poison – do your homework, will ya? Do you believe in freedom? How about every man being equal? Sound like good ideas? If it wasn’t for the very religion you slam, you wouldn’t have the freedom to post your smart-assed little snide remarks and comments here, or to do much of anything else for that matter, if it wasn’t for Christianity. Our entire western civilization and the freedoms you take for granted were the result of the Judeo-Christian doctrines that have developed through the centuries. Check out your history concerning the Renaissance.

reasonable person can disagree about that.  some folk think we have our freedom *in spite* of, & not because of religion.  the "good news" you mentioned prewiously, was yust a good excuse to exploit resources of others, imo.  still is...

Find out about Nicholas of Cusa
http://theosophy.org/tlodocs/teachers/NicholasOfCusa.htm
http://www.digiserve.com/mystic/Christian/Cusa/
and a few others down the line.

The concept of man being made in the image of God led to all sorts of new thinking. It culminated in John Locke’s essay on Natural Law and the role of government. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/locke/

not familiar w/nicholas, but i did a research project on locke's natural law essay years back.  imo, man created god in his own image, so a lot of it doesn't wash...  

The end result of all this “new thinking” was the United Nations adopting the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in 1948.
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

So…shuddup already – or maybe you’d actually prefer Osama’s world? - Or better yet, Carl Marx’s. The least you could do is form an educated opinion, anyway.

religion is *always* being used to justify someone's political motives, which makes it evil.  which is one of the good things about the usa - separation of church & state.  unfortunately, that's being eroded, and recently, to an extreme degree, by the religious-fundamentalist freaks in the present administration.

One last thing: Doug, at least we told you up front where we’re coming from. We could have kept quiet and then maybe you would have bought speakers from a company that used the profits to support other organizations that “offend” people. I suppose if we used the profits to personally support the drug and prostitution trades, you wouldn’t have a problem with that. What if we were Muslims quietly supporting Jihad and Osama? At least you know. Oh, and please don’t purchase our speakers, they “speak the truth” too and we wouldn’t want you to be offended by their accurate reproduction.

yes, i thank you for this.  of course, i can only make conscious choices about what i purchase, when i have this type of information.  and, when i have the ability, i wote w/my wallet.  in this case, it's fortunate that there are a plethora of other speakers that offer an accurate portrayal of a recorded event.  i respect accuracy - i am *never* offended by things that speak "the truth"...

regards,

doug s.

[doug s.]

i yust wanted to mention that i appreciate the comments from smeggy, nathan, marbles & john c.  - they seem to flesh out a bit better some of the feelings i have.

and, bob (sp pres), upon further reflection, to what you prewiously said:

...One last thing: Doug, at least we told you up front where we’re coming from. We could have kept quiet and then maybe you would have bought speakers from a company that used the profits to support other organizations that “offend” people....

i have one more thing to add.  if ya had kept quiet, ya wouldn't be proselytizing, & i likely wouldn't have any problems with purchasing product from you, cuz ya wouldn't be "offending" people.  while i personally find going to church ("church" used as a generic term), offensive, i know many folk like to go,  and i am tolerant enuff that i don't hold it against them.  (at least, not *too* much!)  

regards,

doug s.

[jfreeman373]

Jer 6:10 (NIV) "To whom can I speak and give warning? Who will listen to me? Their ears are closed so they cannot hear. The word of the Lord is offensive to them; they find no pleasure in it."

 
Mat 13:14 By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:  


 Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.  

Zec 7:11 But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.  


 Zec 7:12 Yea, they made their hearts [as] an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts.  


 Zec 7:13 Therefore it is come to pass, [that] as he cried, and they would not hear; so they cried, and I would not hear, saith the LORD of hosts:  


 Zec 7:14 But I scattered them with a whirlwind among all the nations whom they knew not. Thus the land was desolate after them, that no man passed through nor returned: for they laid the pleasant land desolate.

[Marbles]

At the end of "Collection" in a Catholic mass:  Priest "May your Sacrafice be acceptable to God"

Notice the word sacrifice?  They want you to give until it hurts.

And that collection, that is used for the poor, right?  In the church I go to, only 3% is used for the poor.  The rest stays in the church and is used for expenses or passed up the line....

I think Jesus would have rathered instead of the beautiful new church that we would have mass outside and give the millions of dollars to help those less fortuneate.

Maybe it's the Catholic church that's not hearing Gods words?

Maybe it's the manipulative words that you quoted that are trying to coerce (weaker minded) individuals into beleiving? No, that couldn't be.  The Bible would never use coersion or manipulation..........

And as said before, the Bible must be true because the Bible says it is...

We should really get away from religious dogma to make any headway into this Supreme Being area.

Now, if there is a Supreme Being, why couldn't there be more than one?

Why not a Mother Earth and a Father Time? Why not many, like the American Indians, Greeks, Romans, Aztecs, Inca's and countless other peoples thought?

I would hope if there were one, that there would be at least two so they could keep each other company...many would spice up there "lives"...

[doug s.]

Jer 6:10 (NIV) "To whom can I speak and give warning? Who will listen to me? Their ears are closed so they cannot hear. The word of the Lord is offensive to them; they find no pleasure in it."


Mat 13:14 By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:


Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Zec 7:11 But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.


Zec 7:12 Yea, they made their hearts [as] an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts.


Zec 7:13 Therefore it is come to pass, [that] as he cried, and they would not hear; so they cried, and I would not hear, saith the LORD of hosts:


Zec 7:14 But I scattered them with a whirlwind among all the nations whom they knew not. Thus the land was desolate after them, that no man passed through nor returned: for they laid the pleasant land desolate.
_________________
In the beginning was the 373.

just cuz some humans write stuff to invoke fear of the unknown doesn't make it so.  and, it's "my way or the highway."  which is why organized religion brings only exclusion, hatred & killing.  what if vishnu or buddha or mohammed is correct?  what if jesus is a false prophet?  as i have said before, arguing about religion is like arguing about who has the best imaginary friend.  

doug s.

[Tyson]

You people (arguing against jfreeman and SP Pres) obviously do not understand the nature of faith.  Just as reason and evidence cannot "lead you to god" or "cause you to have faith", to the converse is also true - reason and evidence cannot show a person that their faith is misplaced.  Faith is belief without, or even better, in spite of evidence or reason.  I mean, what's a more true testament to faith - belief when everything is backing you up, or belief despite the whole word being against you?  I can tell you what a "true believer" would say, they would say the latter.

So, you see, there really is no point in debating with true believers, even if you "prove" them wrong and beat them over the head with reason in logic, it simply does not matter.  In fact, it most likely will only serve to harden their faith in to dogma (nothing builds dogma like opposition).  At a certain point, it's best to simply check out of the discussion and let the faithful feel good about their faithfulness.

[doug s.]

...So, you see, there really is no point in debating with true believers, even if you "prove" them wrong and beat them over the head with reason in logic, it simply does not matter. In fact, it most likely will only serve to harden their faith in to dogma (nothing builds dogma like opposition). At a certain point, it's best to simply check out of the discussion and let the faithful feel good about their faithfulness....

no tyson, it is better to beat them over the head w/logic & reason.  if logic & reason doesn't work, then try smart bombs, daisy cutters, machine guns, tanks, rocket-propelled grenades, remote-controlled bombs...  

doug s.