[lonewolfny42]

I've eaten grilled cheese sandwiches at least once a week for YEARS and have only managed to get one kind've bizarro-Elvis looking creature and a stunning Abe Lincoln (I ate the evidence because I was really hungry, so take my word).  

Next time...before you eat the image....can you take a photo.....thanks !! [/list:u]

[doug s.]

...It appears we are on the threshold of a paradigm shift in physics. The potential outcome of this boggles the mind. While it proves nothing directly about the existence of God, it does challange one's vain adherence to their preconceived notions of reality.

In the end, the truth of the matter is that "you just don't know what you don't know." It is beginning to like like anything is possible - maybe even God's existance. ...

*my* god's better than *your* god, *my* god's better than *your* god, nyah-nyah-nyah-nyah-NYAH-nyah!!!

doug s.,
happy turkey-kill-fest to celebrate the genocide of the native american to you, too...  

[John Casler]

Folks,

It's been a while but I'm still here.  Ponder these concepts - and your own finite understanding.  If you dare.

http://www.cheniere.org/misc/interview1991.htm#Scalar%20Detector

http://www.csonline.net/bpaddock/scalar/1904.htm

http://rugth30.phys.rug.nl/quantummechanics/ab.htm

It appears we are on the threshold of a paradigm shift in physics.  The potential outcome of this boggles the mind.  While it proves nothing directly about the existence of God, it ...

Hi Bob,

While interesting, I find this rather "over my head"  

But, looking at the quote below I see that he seems to be limiting himself to terms and relationships that do not define nor communicate anything.

This always is the largest fault of these types of discussions.  Small snippets of reason, and reality used to attempt to define what happened, is happening, and will happen.

All these snippets are based on "OUR" putting them into what we think is a well thought out "order".  Even if it is chaos, that chaos is based on our present "order", since they are opposing.

This is simply not enough information, nor do we have any tools other than our reason and imagination when trying to "project" what is.

I can see where this is going and the assumptive "close", is not definitive of any Supreme Being (as you well note) but the paragraph below pulls out the "G" word at the very end.

Science and reason do not co-exist with GOD as generally defined or thought of in the religious sense.

If the definition of GOD is redefined to encompass only the laws of physics and not a "being with purpose, emotion, intellegence and wrath", then it certainly exists, but you may have to use some very fancy speil to get that past the Religious Right.

 

What this means is that, if quantum change is random, then collections of these random tiny changes could never integrate to provide us the ordered macroscopic universe we live in and observe. You couldn't have a flower, or a tree, or anything, for that matter - just total randomness. Obviously that is not true, or else you and I do not exist and this macroworld does not exist.

Everything is "random" until we add order to it by observing it with comparitive analysis.  Everything is also "order" to one who knows everything.  To know all time, all things, and all that did, is, and will happen is ORDER.

Random is in the "not" knowing.  Random is the question.  Order is the knowing.

Whether we're ready or not, God has now seen fit to hand to humankind the ability to engineer its own physical reality and its own destiny. We can make of the new engineered reality a heaven or a hell. Whichever we do, we will reap the benefits or face the consequences. It would indeed be wonderful if, for the first time, we could develop this powerful new tool to save humankind rather than destroy it.

The above "IS NOT" anything but moralistic, and value loaded prosthletising.  Morals, Heaven, Hell, benefits, and consequences, are all values and have absolutley nothing to do with science, or mathematics.

These things are judgmental application to the benefit those who are looking "for" a benefit, as per their definition and their purpose.  Again as defined by them.

I don't condemn that, but do observe it.

But further, don't find it compelling "proof" of anything but the very fact that it has been considered as possible, based on knowledge and imagination.

Fun stuff

[Aether Audio]

John,

Thanks for your comments and observations.  Regardless of differing viewpoints, I appreciate the fact that you and others take the time to investigate and consider the concepts that I try to share.

The fact is, this thread was never started as an attmept to prove anything to anybody.  All I ever desired was to stimulate and encourage folks to contemplate the mysteries of existance a little more.  Nobody has all the answers, least of all me. It's the process of asking questions that is of greatest importance.

To be sure, this is the area that I see as representing the greatest human failing.  Somewhere along the path to adulthood, many folks loose their sense of child-like wonder and awe of the world around us.  I doubt there's a single soul that has not, at some point, asked themselves "what's the meaning of life."  

The problem I see is that children are often very selfish.  When they don't get what they want they often throw a little "fit."  In matters such as this, all too often that "fit" amounts to "giving up" when no one comes along to answer those questions to our satisfaction.  Obviosly the meaning of life represents the greatest enigma so it's understandable that one would get frustrated.  But that's were maturity comes in.  

Instead of being "handed" the answers to such questions, I believe the process of maturity invloves a requirement on our part to continue seeking and researching on our own, rather than being dependent on someone or something to just "lay it all out for us."  Instead of dispensing with our child-like curiosity, we should combine it with a mature sense of responsibility and determination to discover the truth - whatever that may be.  

In the end, it is to our own benefit to do so.  Regardless of religious belief or opinion, there is one un-escapable truth - physical death of our fleshly habitation.  One day we will all discover what lies beyond the veil of life - if anything.  Opinions will cease and what remains will be whatever is the truth of the matter.  For myself, I should think it most unfortunate to discover that there is some form of life after death and there was some way to "prepare" for it in a way that improved my lot in it.  Especially if it turns out that I also failed to do so.  If, in fact, that turns out to be the case at all.

What I see is fairly well identified metaphorically in the Pink Floyd song "Comfortably Numb."  People sell out their dreams - and their child-like innocence and curiosity.  Why? Well I suppose there is a different reason for every human being.  But in the end, the result is pretty much the same - something dies inside that person.  In place of what was once a vibrant spirit, is now a closed and hardened heart.  The joy of discovery is gone and substituded for it is the complacent striving for personal comfort, pleasure and selfish gain.  

And why not?  After all, we have no answers to the big question, so why not just forget about it and have a good time?  Get what you can get while the getting's good and whatever happens - oh well.  We'll worry about that later.  As long as you try to be a decent person and whatever you do doesn't harm anyone else - that's all that matters.  Right?  I may be wrong, but that type of thinking sort of sounds like "whistling past the graveyard" to me.

All I'm saying is that life is filled with mysteries - but those mysteries are there to stimulate our curiosity and our quest for discovery.  The whole purpose for applying science to the matter of religion is to point out how ignorant we really are about pretty much everything.  As has been clearly stated by others, science can neither prove or disprove the existence of God.  I think that may have been the plan from the beginning.

If we can see and accept the ignorance within ourselves concerning something such as science(which is touted as possesing some quality of "absoluteness"), then maybe we can admit to this same ignorance in other areas of our experience - such as religion and the existence of God.  I mean, our entire world is based on the discoveries and foundations of science.  This "science" is based on supposedly observable and testable facts.  Now we are finding that the deeper we look the less "absolute" this science seems to be - at least from a practical standpoint anyway.  If that is even partially true, then isn't it also possible that our notions of much less "material" matters could be lacking as well?  Makes sense to me.

My boys use to ask me what "this or that" was in some area of science.  They were usually pretty simple questions on the surface but they had really deep implications the further I tried to explain the matter.  At some point I would say "well, if you tell me what the absolute essence of any one thing is, I'll tell you what everything else is."  The conversation usually switched to something else fairly quickly.

So that's my point.  The answers hold no meaning for those that don't ask any questions.  Instead of fearing our ignorance, we should embrace it.  It is by acknowledging it that we vanquish its control over our lives. If we can bring ourselves to simply and humbly say "I don't know," then we are firmly on our way to knowing.  And one day..."we will know - even as we are known."

If I can encourage just one person to "think outside the box," I've achieved my goal.  I firmly believe that if you can get someone to begin asking questions sincerely, they'll find the answers on their own.  Problem is, most would rather engauge in an argument as a means to defend their reason for not seeking, rather than run the risk of doing so only to find they may have been wrong all along.  That is the greatest tragedy.

"Ask and it shall be given, seek and you shall find, knock and the door shall be opened unto you."

-Bob

[Anton K.]

Very good points, Bob!

[PeteG]

Bob, Good write up.

I believe the process of maturity invloves a requirement on our part to continue seeking and researching on our own, rather than being dependent on someone or something to just "lay it all out for us.

Some are hungrier for the truth than others, but sometimes people that are “Comfortably Numb” doesn’t mean they are lazy in finding the truth they just have a lot of faith and don’t
need the physical proof.

If we can see and accept the ignorance within ourselves concerning something such as science(which is touted as possesing some quality of "absoluteness"), then maybe we can admit to this same ignorance in other areas of our experience - such as religion and the existence of God. I mean

I believe mankind is to ignorant to connected the dots from science to GOD, that’s why we have faith.

In the end, it is to our own benefit to do so. Regardless of religious belief or opinion, there is one un-escapable truth - physical death of our fleshly habitation.

When my son was younger, I explained when passing over (don’t care for the word death) that it’s like driving a car (body), though life you have to take care of it, checking the engine
often with regular maintenance and put only good gas in it, and it will last along time but their will come a time when the car is just wore out or you could crash it, at this time you (soul) will just open the door and go no to the next thing or another car . I hope my writing make's sense.

Pete

[ScottMayo]

Science and reason do not co-exist with GOD as generally defined or thought of in the religious sense.

Er... well, no, that's false. As someone who believes in both the validity of reason, and the tenants of Christianity, I can tell you that these things connect, and do not contradict. Christianity is rooted in (as some believe) certain historical facts, which are studied and reasoned about, and that leads to certain conclusions. Delete the historical evidence of Jesus, or our ability to reason about it, and you delete Christianity itself, and a great deal of what Christians claim to know about God.

I get a great deal of "faith is irrational" from my atheist friends, and "science is evil" from my less educated Christian friends. Neither statement is true, and I get twitchy when people appear to claim otherwise. Most people mocking Christianity as irrational have never actually studied it, and people claiming science as evil should, in my opinion, return their automobiles, stereos, medicines and enriched food products.

[John Casler]

John,

Thanks for your comments and observations.  Regardless of differing viewpoints, I appreciate the fact that you and others take the time to investigate and consider the concepts that I try to share.

The fact is, this thread was never started as an attmept to prove anything to anybody.  All I ever desired was to stimulate and encourage folks to contemplate the mysteries of existance a little more.  Nobody has all the answers, least of all me. It's the process of asking questions that is of greates ..

To be sure, this is the area that I see as representing the greatest human failing. Somewhere along the path to adulthood, many folks loose their sense of child-like wonder and awe of the world around us. I doubt there's a single soul that has not, at some point, asked themselves "what's the meaning of life." .

Hi Bob,

And I certainly appreciate your positions also.  Your postings are thoughtful and stimulating.  My responses are generally to share, that I see the same things, but arrive at a very different conclusion.

I also agree that "understanding" is generally why we pursue a question.

I disagree however that there is a "greater purpose".  Purpose is a human invention (no other animal has expressed that it is searching for purpose) to substantiate acknowledgement of a Deity.  

After all, a deity is the parent, which we "aspire" to be.    All knowing, all powerful, mature, and rule setting, are parental (and God like) traits

Since we see that we grow up to be the parent, it would also seem to be our "purpose" to eventually grow to become "godlike", when in fact, God is "parentlike".

This. to me, means there actually is no "question" of "why are we here" other than to just have a "ponderable premise" based on becoming godlike and the other great question, (where are we going) which is based on the fear of the unknown.

The problem I see is that children are often very selfish. When they don't get what they want they often throw a little "fit." In matters such as this, all too often that "fit" amounts to "giving up" when no one comes along to answer those questions to our satisfaction. Obviosly the meaning of life represents the greatest enigma so it's understandable that one would get frustrated. But that's were maturity comes in.

Instead of being "handed" the answers to such questions, I believe the process of maturity invloves a requirement on our part to continue seeking and researching on our own, rather than being dependent on someone or something to just "lay it all out for us." Instead of dispensing with our child-like curiosity, we should combine it with a mature sense of responsibility and determination to discover the truth - whatever that may be.

Truth is everything and nothing.  The fact is, we have no truth.  One day cholesterol kills you, and the next it is needed for optimum health.

We as individuals can find "all" the answers (keys to our existence)within.  While it is interesting to search for support and validation from science, or others of like mindedness (religious groups), in the end, "all is within".

The answer is developing an inner peace, that allows one to function daily and enjoy the life they have.  External manifestations of structures to support this "peace" are always "tainted" with the misinterpretation of others.

By "inner peace", I am not talking about any emotional, or spiritual experience, other than that of "pure comfort", allowed by an understanding that "structured, supported understanding or answers" are NOT, needed (or wanted).

Armed with this understanding, pursuit of additional understanding is unnecessary (while still intellectually stimulating).  In fact, after owning these "truths" of understanding, one finds a balance that cannot be attained in any other way.  An enlightenment, and existence based on nothing else, except "self".

Instead of being "handed" the answers to such questions, I believe the process of maturity invloves a requirement on our part to continue seeking and researching on our own, rather than being dependent on someone or something to just "lay it all out for us." Instead of dispensing with our child-like curiosity, we should combine it with a mature sense of responsibility and determination to discover the truth - whatever that may be.

I agree here to an extent but find that "dogma" and even science "handed" to you provide external maps, that reach "outward" rather than explore within.

The rather centric idea that the assimilation of life experiences and analysis of them will in some way explain your past, present and future, or in some way be "taken with you" when you die, is very strange if we look at it through pure logic.


The very basis of good and evil, right and wrong, and so on cannot even be imagined in "non-sensory" (present reality is based on the senses) existence.  Intelligence is even the ability to use a "physical" gathering of awareness and process it.

Our "present" existence is fully predicated on the senses.  Trying to imagine a "reality" with out a body and brain is not possible.  Without eyes, you cannot see.  In fact, without a body, there is no need to see.

That is, sight developed to allow us to be able to find food, and move through our environment.  In an after life that is not physical, the very act of seeing is an impossibility as we know it.  First no eyes to see with, second nothing to see, and third no reason to see it.

If one is to understand the "hereafter", the first step is admitting it cannot be understood with our present awareness.  To then look outwardly and apply some teachings that are clearly based on "very" human traits is counterproductive, if true understanding is to be realized.

True understanding has to come from "subtracting" knowledge not adding.  

There is no "right and wrong", "good or bad", "benefit or detriment", "moral and immoral" or whatever except what "WE" decide in our socialization of those aspects.

While the URLs you post are stimulating (and don't take this the wrong way) the ability of the writers to display extreme projected intellect, does not convey anything except "that" ability, and the stimulation it offers.

That intellect does not offer any greater information or understanding that all of us presently have the ability to experience if we remove the forest that clouds our vision, and the impediment that most all have that "someone else" can give us an answer.

Greater information will certainly allow you to see that all things are wondrous and that the capabilities of the human mind are limitless, but they will not give you understanding to the questions that "have" no answer. (or one that we can comprehend anyhow).

And on that note, you will see that you and I agree.  We just choose to use "different external structures, direction and paths", in this lifetime.

One is no better than the other as long as we are both happy and we don't harm others.

And I might add that there is no penalty, for not understanding or knowing, and to teach that there is, is a form of immoral manipulation.

Hope that makes sense, and my directness is not offensive to most.

[doug s.]

...For myself, I should think it most unfortunate to discover that there is some form of life after death and there was some way to "prepare" for it in a way that improved my lot in it. Especially if it turns out that I also failed to do so. If, in fact, that turns out to be the case at all. ...

for myself, i find it most *fortunate* that that i am not at all worried about trying to prepare for something that one cannot prepare for, cuz one doesn't know what it is.  and, trying to "improve my lot in it" sounds kinda selfish, imho...  sounds like trying to look out only after "#1", which is kinda ironic, as that is the complaint you lodge towards those who, in your opinion:

"...sell out their dreams - and their child-like innocence and curiosity....The joy of discovery is gone and substituded for it is the complacent striving for personal comfort, pleasure and selfish gain..."

sounds to me, bob, like yure trying to have it both ways, that you think you can "take it with you".

If I can encourage just one person to "think outside the box," I've achieved my goal. I firmly believe that if you can get someone to begin asking questions sincerely, they'll find the answers on their own. Problem is, most would rather engauge in an argument as a means to defend their reason for not seeking, rather than run the risk of doing so only to find they may have been wrong all along. That is the greatest tragedy.

another irony, imo, bob.  i, for one have *always* been seeking, & am not concerned at all whether i am right or not - since no one knows, why worry about whether or not you are right.  the irony, bob, is it's you, imo, who is stuck in the box, & needs to think outside it.  your firm conviction that jesus is the way is so limiting...

regards,

doug s.

[John Casler]

Er... well, no, that's false. As someone who believes in both the validity of reason, and the tenants of Christianity, I can tell you that these things connect, and do not contradict. Christianity is rooted in (as some believe) certain historical facts, which are studied and reasoned about, and that leads to certain conclusions. Delete the historical evidence of Jesus, or our ability to reason about it, and you delete Christianity itself, and a great deal of what Christians claim to know about God.

I get ...

Hey Scott,

What I do know is that a "religious experience" will be happening to you soon.

That said, my statment:

Science and reason do not co-exist with GOD as generally defined or thought of in the religious sense.

is very true.  There is no scientific basis to in any way prove a dieties existance, or a relationship between a historical figure and a diety.

There is also no credible support to any "afterlife" claims that can or are substantiated through scientific reason.

But if you read my other statements above, you will see that I suggest that both religious dogma, "and" science offer obfuscation to the realization of the foundation of our being.

While we can point to historical records or writings as support, they are not ample evidence or guarranteed accurate enough to offer anything to base such  faith on, unless one simply wishes to have the "comfort" of a popular or "learned", foundation to the fears and questions of existance.

(how was that for a run on?)

We have trouble establishing "scientific fact" with even todays research (my cholesteral example is sufficient) much less trying to prove something that happened 2000 years ago.

[Mike Dzurko]

Over the last few days I’ve felt myself pulled back to read this thread like perhaps no other thread in years. It is certainly a tour de force of intellectual reasoning from many contributors. I wish I were ½ as eloquent or knowledgeable. Bob and John in particular, you are amazing in the depth of your arguments and your thoughfulness. Watching some of the tone of this thread, it is certainly easy to see why so many wars have been fought if not because of religion, then using religion as a rationalization. It certainly stirs passion!

I was fortunate enough to take a very nice hike in the local bluffs today. While carefully descending a slippery, steep slope I was concentrating on the path right in front of my feet and  found that my field of vision was probably around 102” diagonal, (16:9 widescreen vision). Pausing for a second, my diagonal instantly zoomed out to at least 15 miles across the valley below. Then it occurred to me that if I had an electron microscope with me I could study the path below my feet and find a myriad of amazing universes in that forest floor material, (I was definitely thinking about this thread, probably too much).

If I hadn’t looked up, I never would have noticed the grandeur of the beautiful valley I live in. Had I not paused, I would not have thought of the rich life and all the little worlds that are a part of that forest.  You won’t find faith if you are closed to it.

I was raised a Catholic. Sure I had all the usual stuff, nuns smacking my hands with rulers, tremendous gilt when in second grade we were fooling around and knocked a statue of Mary to the floor, (I can still see it shatter in slow mo). I also had caring and loving Catholic parents, teachers, priests, etc. I escaped Catholic school as a High School Junior and felt tremendously free. I tried everything from atheism to evangelism with Methodist and Lutheran churches as part of the process. Everywhere I went I found imperfection. Eventually I began attending Catholic church again. Frankly, it was because I fell in love with a Catholic woman and I was tired of trying to find the perfect church. As I heard one minister say “you won’t find a perfect church, because as soon as you join, it will be imperfect”.

Here’s the deal for me. Religion is a structure that helps me focus on my faith. Don’t lecture me about the failings of the Catholic Church, or the infallibility of Popes, I know all that history and it is sad and sorry to say the least. IMHO, we’re talking about the failings of man, not the failings of God. I don’t pretend to know what God thinks, I can only believe what my own experiences have told me. For me, it is a fact that in times when I most needed God, he was there. On more than one occasion I’ve had to be hit over the head pretty hard to “open up my field of vision”.  I’m just glad I did. Peace.

[Aether Audio]

Mike,

Sorry so late getting back.  Your posting pretty much justifies my entire purpose for starting this thread in the first place.  Your comments and insight reflect the very points I have been trying to make all along.  Thank you and bless you my friend.  

Everyone,

Here's some more food for thought.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/bigbang_alternative_010413-1.html

As I viewed the animation it reminded me of a "wave" traveling through water.

Genesis 1

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. 6

Who knows?  Just a thought is all.  Nevertheless, as expansive and complex as our world seems to be getting as we stretch for deeper understanding, the more I wonder how anyone could actually believe that there's no room in any of it all... for a Creator.  That idea would take more of an imagination than I posess anyway.

God bless,
-Bob

[John Casler]

 Who knows? Just a thought is all. Nevertheless, as expansive and complex as our world seems to be getting as we stretch for deeper understanding, the more I wonder how anyone could actually believe that there's no room in any of it all... for a Creator. That idea would take more of an imagination than I posess anyway.


Who knows?.

Hi Bob,

Glad to see you back.

To answer your question of "Who Knows?"  The answer is NO ONE.  Not one swinging person.  No genius, no imbecile, no preacher, no heathan.

The Ying/Yang, right/wrong, juxtaposed ideology of psycho-searching reality for THE ANSWER is pointless.  The search for meaning, is meaningless, and the search for truth, will find lies.

It doesn't take imagination "not" to weave a "faith based" matrix.  It takes imagination "to" come up with it.

Especially since there is not a shred of verifiable evidence (that is not faith based) in around 5 million years of human history.

To fathom that a "being" as infinite as you subscribe to in all areas, who would provide such wonders and then provide such lack of communication or even verifiable substantiation of its own existance is beyond all logic and comprehension.

Contact with reality is NOT proof of a Supreme Creator (unless your Diana Ross's father)

In fact, is is "anti-logical", "anti-intutitive", "anti-intellectual", and just plain doesn't make any sense, in any way, shape, or form.

I too, look at the wonderous things all around us, and marvel at the intricacy and incredible beauty I find in it,....But,... I don't feel a need to explain it with something I made up, or by listening to someone else who probably knows less than I do.

The very logic of looking at these wonderous details and then explaining that the "creator" is not a "communicator" is well beyond my imagination.

And don't tell me that you talk with him/her because you know that is not just borderline, but full on "delusional".

Strip away all the doctrine, teachings, and what everyone has told you to beleive, and see if you can find a "god" within you.

Now you have something.  It is within you, and without you (sound familiar)

Just because there are atomic structures and infinite galaxys, that "does not" logically lead to an intelligent creation being.  There is no foundational logic to that premise period.  You have been led here, by those who fear the unknowns.

That is an "infinite" concept in itself, for to imagine such, leads to the next (logical step) and that is, the GOD and creator of "your" God.  And then of course his/her creator and so on to infinity.  It just doesn't fly.  

Oh, there isn't one beyond this one.  He is all there is?  My how we have trancended the knowledge of the infinite.  We can't even prove ther is one and now we are sure that he is the one and only.

It is an intellectual gauntlet for the enjoyment of pondering, not basing your life around.  If it was serious, the BIG GUY (GAL), would at least have equipped you with a cell phone, hotline.

Sorry about the "gender" slashes, but that opens another whole can of beans.  Do you think we should go there sometime?  What sex (gender) is GOD and why?  That should be a real eye opener.

The greatest challenge of an individual in this world today is not to answer these questions, but to find peace in accepting reality as we know it.  Mental health is based on the ability to accept reality, with out drugs or crutches.

Psychological mechanisms to allow us to cope with life are not much better than their pharmaceutical counterparts and much more addicting.

The good of man is not based on the morals of religion.  Look at the world today and tell me that's not true.  Religion gives us the right to kill and destroy  as much as create and love.

How's that for an opening salvo ??

[toobwacky]

FWIW, I found my answers...  If you have 5 minutes, here they are:
http://www.caravanairporttransportation.com/stars

I'm the author of the website and its contents...

tw

[doug s.]

...Who knows? Just a thought is all. Nevertheless, as expansive and complex as our world seems to be getting as we stretch for deeper understanding, the more I wonder how anyone could actually believe that there's no room in any of it all... for a Creator. That idea would take more of an imagination than I posess anyway...

this much i can understand - since no one knows for sure whether or not there's a "creator", the symmetry of everything awailable to all our senses - from the smallest quark to the largest galaxy - it *does* give pause to make one just...  WONDER.  

but, when you start quoting the old testament, this is when i know you are completely out to lunch.  this is yust a book written by a bunch of control freaks playing on the fears of the ignorants, trying to get them to behave.  (and trying to exploit them for their own selfish benefit.)  the old testament is no different from the koran in this regard, nor from most any other great (sic?!?) religion's teachings, for that matter.  (altho, i personally believe the buddhist teachings aren't quite as selfishly motivated as the majority of other religious tomes.)  

bob, i am pretty sure that if you were raised in a muslim houshold instead of a christian one, your religious fervor would likely not be diminished a whit.  i honestly believe that everyone's fears, demons, questions, desires, motivations, etc., are largely determined by genetics.  tho they *can* be shaped - positively or negatively - by your enwironment.  in your case, bob, your need of religion as a crutch is obviously gi-normous, & i doubt that being raised by similarly-tempered parents such as yours, would have changed this aspect of your inate being wery much, if they happened to be muslim instead of christian.  but, i am 100% sure of *this* fact as well:  your perceived "leader" certainly would be different!  

and, toobwacky, please tell me this:  what happened *before* the big bang, anyways?  

ymmv,

doug s.

[mcgsxr]

(altho, i personally believe the buddhist teachings aren't quite as selfishly motivated as the majority of other religious tomes.)

is what doug s wrote.

doug s - as much as I HAVE to respect you for your exceptional taste in two wheeled transport... I have to ask about that Buddhist teachings comment - after all, the basis of those teachings, as I understand it, is do the right thing, at the right time, for the right reason.

Not sure how that can, in ANY way, be selfishly motivated... unless it is interpreted as a way to justify selfish actions, though that in itself should fail at least one of the tenets listed...

In any case, what an interesting thread,

[doug s.]

is what doug s wrote.

doug s - as much as I HAVE to respect you for your exceptional taste in two wheeled transport... I have to ask about that Buddhist teachings comment - after all, the basis of those teachings, as I understand it, is do the right thing, at the right time, for the right reason.

Not sure how that can, in ANY way, be selfishly motivated... unless it is interpreted as a way to justify selfish actions, though that in itself should fail at least one of the tenets listed...

In any case, what an interesting thread,

hi mark,

yure yust preaching to the choir here, buddy!     it's only my relative ignorance of buddhism that made me perhaps understate its unselfish motivations.

regards,

doug s.

[Marbles]

FWIW, I found my answers...  If you have 5 minutes, here they are:
http://www.caravanairporttransportation.com/stars

I'm the author of the website and its contents...

tw

Very cool site....

[mcgsxr]

doug s - no worries here, as a guy raised Roman Catholic, it was only through education that I came to understand more about how religions and people relate.

In all my travels, both physical, and educational, it is the Buddhist faith that continues to fascinate me, and keeps me coming back - but it is not like I am one, it is just supremely intellectually interesting to me.

That site about the birth of the universes etc is really interesting too, and manages to walk the fine line of informative, without crossing over into the vastness that is what I do NOT know about science!

[Aether Audio]

WOW!

Thought maybe you guys had “dried up” or something – guess not!

I think maybe you have missed my whole point of this thread.  Mike on the other hand seems to have gotten it.  I won’t try to address all of your individual comments, as there are just too many.  Instead, I’ll just elaborate on my thoughts and hopefully that will hit most of your points.

The whole purpose of “sharing” these tidbits of scientific information is to stimulate a sense of “awe” and wonderment at this existence we find ourselves in.  The mysteries serve only one purpose – to begin the process of asking, “What is it all about?” and “Why am I here?”  If you choose to dismiss the possibility that there actually are definite answers to those questions, or that somehow such answers can actually be known in any real and absolute personal way – then, well…I guess the point is moot.  

But to me this point is obvious – if the nature of our reality is so complex that resorting to multiple dimensions (String Theory postulates 11!!!), then what is the possibility that there just might be a “God,” and that somewhere within all these potential dimensions/universes resides what heretofore has been termed the “spiritual” realm?

I believe the need to find answers to such questions are an innate driving force within the core of every (well, "most" anyway) human consciousness (notice I didn’t say “soul” – can’t “prove” such exists).  History is full of examples – hence “religion.”

Now, for the sake of “argument,” I’ll “clue you in” on what basic Christianity teaches us (if you don't already know).  That will serve to clarify my position – I hope.  Please bear with me, I'm not trying to "preach."

The New Testament teaches that “without faith it is impossible to please God,” and “the just shall live by faith,” and “faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.” We are commanded by “faith” to “call that which is not, as though it were.” The point is, whoever this “God” is, he seems to be pretty preoccupied by this concept called “faith.”  In fact, that is the core theme that is expounded upon through all of scripture.

So what is this quality we call faith?  Is it merely a blind adherence to some abstract and impersonal teachings of ancient authors and their excessive imaginations?  No – not at least as far as I have come to know.  That may be true for some religions and/or some believers, but it is not the core teachings of Christianity.

In fact this “faith” stuff and a relationship with the Creator is repeatedly portrayed in the scriptures as a very personal and real experience, and anything other than that is a “false” religion.  The bible teaches that a personal relationship with God is not only possible, but also a requirement to please him.  Anything else is a “vain” attempt to “be a good person” by interpreting the teachings of scripture via one’s own intellect, rather than “experiencing” the truth of scriptural teaching through a process of “revelation.”  Such revelation is supposed to be a by-product of a personal relationship with God as He reveals the true meaning of scripture to one’s own mind.  It teaches that we do not have the power to be good (as in a form of goodness that is acceptable to God) in our own strength or as a result of our own efforts alone.  It also teaches that the process of becoming “good enough” or acceptable to Him is through this process of a personal relationship and a willingness to “obey” whatever He reveals to us that we need to change in the way we conduct ourselves and treat others.

But I digress.  What is this “faith” thing then?  It is sort of like a waking dream wherein we are able to visualize something before it actually come into existence.  Genesis teaches us that God “spoke” the universe into existence – apparently out of “nothingness.”  It seems He possesses this same “faith quality” to visualize something and “create” it by the shear power of His mind - to “will it” into existence, so to speak.  In many instances the word faith can be substituted by the word “trust” (as in trusting God for whatever the need may be), but that tends to be a somewhat different subject than the usage of the word that I am referring to.

So there we have it.  Faith is the ability to envision what would be, in many instances, something that would otherwise be either unlikely or considered impossible based on the natural systems that are in place and seem to govern reality.  Call it “thinking outside the box” if you will or “projecting.”  The catch is that such thinking must be accompanied with a certain expectation that the thing “believed in,” would come to pass.

Now, in order to develop this “quality” in us, it seems God has set up a universe that is devoid of any direct evidence of His existence.  Oh, there appears to be much evidence – depending on how you CHOOSE to look at it.  The mere existence of sentient thought and self-awareness of matter (us) is one good piece of evidence.  

But as in all other incidences of supposed evidence or “fact,” it is up to the observer to determine what is real or fact and what is not.  Just try to get two people to agree on the events leading up to a car accident if you have any doubt about this.  Every individual determines for himself what is fact and what is not.  Is not the ongoing debate in politics enough to prove that point?  Even people such as scientists that are supposed to be committed to objective observation, debate the various scientific facts based on defending their pet theories.

So it seems God has designed a system wherein the first “leg up the ladder” towards developing this “faith” quality is to question the possibility of His existence and ultimately, have a deep desire to know for sure within ourselves whether He exists or not.  That is the first requirement – really wanting to know.  Wanting to know so bad that we’re willing to let go of our opinions and preconceived notions.  Wanting to know so bad as to be willing to admit to ourselves that we don’t know “for sure” and allow Him to reveal himself to us.  Wanting to know so bad that we’re willing to do or change whatever He asks us to, in order to know.  Wanting to know so bad we’re willing to obey him in whatever He asks us to do, so long as He makes Himself known to us.  Wanting to know so bad that we’re willing to give up our lives and ways of living in order to follow Him and His ways - if that’s what he requires of us.  Wanting to know unto DEATH!!!  The scriptures teach us that if we don’t want to know Him that much, then we don’t want to know Him at all.

That being the case and God being the gentleman that He is, He has created a universe wherein one can go forward with their lives without really being “bothered” by a set of undeniable evidences that constantly remind us that He is, and that we are ignoring Him.  The greatest gift that He has given us is our free will and He will not violate it by shoving the fact of His existence “in our face” on a regular basis.  If He created the world where we could prove He exists, then we would either be obligated to serve Him or live in blatant defiance.

If He left undeniable proof that He exists, then at some great endpoint wherein we reside in His Kingdom forever, then we could then say, “Well, what choice did I have?  If I didn’t honor and obey Almighty God I would have ended up in Hell.”  If, on the other hand, we ended up separated from Him in Hell, we could say, “What choice did I have, go to heaven and just be his puppet forever?”

 Neither of these scenarios is acceptable to God.  He only wants those to be with Him that WANT to be with Him - and want to know Him.  In order to avoid violating our free will he had to design the universe where any irrefutable evidence of His existence simply did not exist.  Think about it.  If there were universal evidence of God’s existence, would you refuse to acknowledge Him and obey His will?  If He truly is Almighty, you’d essentially be committing eternal suicide – and you’d know it beforehand!  What “choice” would that be?  And at the same time, would you really “want” to obey Him knowing you really had no other choice?  Who would want to be God’s puppet for all eternity?  Not me.

So all this leads us to our present state of affairs.  God wants to culture within us this quality of “faith” without cramming it down our throats.  Apparently this faith stuff is something we will be in need of for all eternity.  In order to develop faith in us God has made “faith” or “belief” in Him the very first hurdle to overcome.  After managing that, He continues to work with us to develop it further for all eternity.  Don’t ask me why though. I think I have some understanding of the matter but then, I’m still learning too.

PS. - That's "why" we can neither prove or disprove God, OK?  It's really not that hard to understand.  Freewill is EVERYTHING!!!  Would you have it any other way?

God bless,:D
-Bob