Why power cord?

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drummermitchell

Re: Why power cord?
« Reply #80 on: 15 May 2012, 11:23 pm »
I have never seen one audio manufacturer say that this cable really compliments our amps or pre's or whatever.
I've seen where Bryston or Arc ect have used cables at audio shows where the cable company is also showing their wares.
It's always the audiophile who has the major improvements.
James or others don't really say anything to support all this cabling,yes this does such and such for  the 7,4, ect.
Of course there is the three Amigos which seem to be the most important for cables.
I would think some of these audio manufacturers would have tried some fire hose cables if they thought they wouldmake even the slightest difference,let alone the major improvements most claim,same goes for a 30-50.00 fuse.
I'm sure if that little bugger made a big difference then most audio manufacturers would install it in their components and raise the price a bit if they make such a difference.
Been thru all top S_ _ _ _ _ _ a pc's,LL,now back to normal cables Bryston(no nonsense)no 1.5" pipe insulation
around their cables or is it 2",or the hand braid,or magnets.
I do use dedicated lines and just a few Torus(s)units and all is superb to my ears,no degradation that I can hear.
If there was,I'd be back at the cable puzzle palace buying more :o.                                                               Good Bryston cables,dedicated lines,Torus(Bit)were done at that end.
Anyone want to buy some Lessloss Pc's DFPC(original) :thumb:..

redbook

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Re: Why power cord?
« Reply #81 on: 15 May 2012, 11:35 pm »
 Oh God , are we back to this useless subject :duh: :duh:

drummermitchell

Re: Why power cord?
« Reply #82 on: 15 May 2012, 11:48 pm »
same ol,same ol :lol:

PRELUDE

Re: Why power cord?
« Reply #83 on: 16 May 2012, 01:05 am »
I love this power cord myth. :thumb:
I see three different posts for power cord on same page. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

redbook

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Re: Why power cord?
« Reply #84 on: 16 May 2012, 03:06 am »
 No myth if it works for you...effects seem to be equipment related. On my 4Bst and BP25 there are  overall improvements, but this has been said many times before... :shake:

vegasdave

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Re: Why power cord?
« Reply #85 on: 16 May 2012, 08:41 am »
Thanks Sasha and Devil Doc.

cheap-Jack

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Re: Why NOT power cord?
« Reply #86 on: 16 May 2012, 01:55 pm »
Hi.

(1) I have never seen one audio manufacturer say that this cable really compliments our amps or pre's or whatever.

(2) It's always the audiophile who has the major improvements.

(3) I'm sure if that little bugger made a big difference then most audio manufacturers would install it in their components and raise the price a bit if they make such a difference.

(4) I do use dedicated lines and just a few Torus(s)units and all is superb to my ears,no degradation that I can hear.


(1) & (3) You "have never seen" does not mean it is not there.

Let me quote you just one audio manufacturer which uses pure silver ALL over inside their phono-preamps & power amps, ALL interconnects, speaker cables & power cords. It is Audio Note of Japan. FYI, its flag ship "Okgaku 27W monoblocks, taggged for USD265,000 a pair!!!!  I had a full audition of it just last January in its regional dealership studio.

(2) & (4) So you would consider yourself an "audiophile" or not given you don'e believe in quality power cords yet you installed dedicted powerlines & "Torus"s.

FYI, I've insalled for years now 3 dedicated powerlines (125V & 250V) with inline PASSIVE filters, exclusively of my digital & analogue gear.

Still I DIYed the 3-wire power cord for my 35W+35W tube power amp using 99.99% pure solid silver wires (of German origin), total thickness 1/2", airtight.
I never regret I have done so. Inspired by the late Kondo shan of Audio Note of Japan.

c-J 


DaveNote

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Re: Why power cord?
« Reply #87 on: 16 May 2012, 02:26 pm »
I'm going to jump into this discussion, or should I call it debate, which is often tiresome. There are many of these in audio as all of us on this forum know so well: analog vs digital, tubes vs SS, etc. etc., and of course cabling of all kinds. The usual divide is between the "scientists" (the ones who go by the measurement) and the "believers" (who swear by what they hear). These divisions then are reminiscent of the larger debates between adherents to science generally and those who adhere to religion. And earlier writer on this thread also referred to this.

I'm a believer in both the science and in my ears. That's not as much fence sitting as it appears. I think measurements say a lot, but as even some of the strong adherents of measurement admit (spoke to one respected person in this camp yesterday), the psychoanalytic effect is not to be dismissed. Why? Because, as I've said often on this circle, the only important measurement in terms of what we enjoy and therefore what we buy is what we as listener hear. It might not be measurable on a graph or test equipment, but it is no less real to the listener. And let's face it, there are many things in life that are real to individuals that are not measurable, especially when it comes to individual judgement. Often my wife and I disagree on a movie. She renders a judgement on what she sees, as do I, and we interpret that in different ways. So why wouldn't this apply to the equally highly subjective business of what we hear?

So, when someone says to me that he can hear a difference, I can't, and more importantly, won't say he's just dreaming. And even if he were dreaming, why should I try to deny him his dream. Isn't true that audio enthusiasts - audiophiles - in a way are in a very dreamy hobby?

Dave

werd

Re: Why power cord?
« Reply #88 on: 16 May 2012, 02:43 pm »
I'm going to jump into this discussion, or should I call it debate, which is often tiresome. There are many of these in audio as all of us on this forum know so well: analog vs digital, tubes vs SS, etc. etc., and of course cabling of all kinds. The usual divide is between the "scientists" (the ones who go by the measurement) and the "believers" (who swear by what they hear). These divisions then are reminiscent of the larger debates between adherents to science generally and those who adhere to religion. And earlier writer on this thread also referred to this.

I'm a believer in both the science and in my ears. That's not as much fence sitting as it appears. I think measurements say a lot, but as even some of the strong adherents of measurement admit (spoke to one respected person in this camp yesterday), the psychoanalytic effect is not to be dismissed. Why? Because, as I've said often on this circle, the only important measurement in terms of what we enjoy and therefore what we buy is what we as listener hear. It might not be measurable on a graph or test equipment, but it is no less real to the listener. And let's face it, there are many things in life that are real to individuals that are not measurable, especially when it comes to individual judgement. Often my wife and I disagree on a movie. She renders a judgement on what she sees, as do I, and we interpret that in different ways. So why wouldn't this apply to the equally highly subjective business of what we hear?

So, when someone says to me that he can hear a difference, I can't, and more importantly, won't say he's just dreaming. And even if he were dreaming, why should I try to deny him his dream. Isn't true that audio enthusiasts - audiophiles - in a way are in a very dreamy hobby?

Dave

I think its as simple as hearing in general is a learned skilled. The abx tests prey
On that elusive notion. The abx test doesn't allow for a skilled listener (and when I mean skilled i mean some one accustomed to the sound of the tested gear) to participate.

It takes a long time to get used to the sound of your system. Fortunately its not that hard to do all it takes is time in the sweet spot.

You are bang on with your movie reference. What we come to know in our systems is just not measureable in an electrical sense. This is why abx testing is the biggest scam in audio marketing and should be removed from it.

Devil Doc

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Re: Why power cord?
« Reply #89 on: 16 May 2012, 02:44 pm »
I agree. Having some experience as a Psychiatric technician, I can tell you that when a schizophrenic hears or sees something, he believes it's real.

Doc

spinner

Re: Why power cord?
« Reply #90 on: 16 May 2012, 03:07 pm »
 All we experience ,as reality, is subjective. No one hears,sees,smells or tastes in the same way.   :thumb: 

werd

Re: Why power cord?
« Reply #91 on: 16 May 2012, 03:21 pm »
I agree. Having some experience as a Psychiatric technician, I can tell you that when a schizophrenic hears or sees something, he believes it's real.

Doc

Of course, but the person has to be diagnosed schizophrenic. No one hear fits that and if you really believe there are then you probably shouldn't be posting here.

Devil Doc

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Re: Why power cord?
« Reply #92 on: 16 May 2012, 03:50 pm »
Kind of a concrete thinker, ain't ya werd. And who made you the arbiter of who posts and who doesn't. You really need to work on your sense of humor. You ain't got one. I think one of this biggest problems around here is people take themselves way too seriously and have an inability to laugh at themselves.

Doc

Sasha

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Re: Why power cord?
« Reply #93 on: 16 May 2012, 06:18 pm »
I'm going to jump into this discussion, or should I call it debate, which is often tiresome. There are many of these in audio as all of us on this forum know so well: analog vs digital, tubes vs SS, etc. etc., and of course cabling of all kinds. The usual divide is between the "scientists" (the ones who go by the measurement) and the "believers" (who swear by what they hear). These divisions then are reminiscent of the larger debates between adherents to science generally and those who adhere to religion. And earlier writer on this thread also referred to this.

I'm a believer in both the science and in my ears. That's not as much fence sitting as it appears. I think measurements say a lot, but as even some of the strong adherents of measurement admit (spoke to one respected person in this camp yesterday), the psychoanalytic effect is not to be dismissed. Why? Because, as I've said often on this circle, the only important measurement in terms of what we enjoy and therefore what we buy is what we as listener hear. It might not be measurable on a graph or test equipment, but it is no less real to the listener. And let's face it, there are many things in life that are real to individuals that are not measurable, especially when it comes to individual judgement. Often my wife and I disagree on a movie. She renders a judgement on what she sees, as do I, and we interpret that in different ways. So why wouldn't this apply to the equally highly subjective business of what we hear?

So, when someone says to me that he can hear a difference, I can't, and more importantly, won't say he's just dreaming. And even if he were dreaming, why should I try to deny him his dream. Isn't true that audio enthusiasts - audiophiles - in a way are in a very dreamy hobby?

Dave
I would not call believers those who can hear differences, it is another category I would say, and hearing a difference is not the contention for me.
And I do not think the comparison to disagreement on a movie really stands, movie critique is an entirely subjective view of expression, art, etc.
Preferences in this hobby are also very subjective, not everyone aims for truthful reproduction of the recording and not everyone has a reference in live unamplified sound of voices and instruments. You (and I) may prefer large(r) studio monitors, maybe not even for the same reasons, while some dismiss them as “non-audiophile” (whatever that may mean).
But we are not talking about preferences here at all.
I am not denying that power cord may introduce change in sound, but the point I am making is that those changes are negligible, to the extent that can be easily dismissed, and on such small scale that those who claim revelatory kind of improvement when power cords are swapped are in fact incapable of identifying those power cords when challenged.
Furthermore, those minute changes in sound can be correlated to measurements, there is nothing mystical about it, and only those who have no grasp in physics of any kind resort to irrational arguments completely devoid of any facts and science.
Same goes with cryo treatment, CD demagnetizers, etc. I could hear the change these things introduce, but it is so insignificant and inconsistently noticeable that I would never ever pay a penny for it, let alone thousands of $.
There is a whole industry developed around this that thrives on foolishness.
It is one thing to be engaged in discussion about this hobby, merits of technologies, preferences, and another to drivel all the time from hard position not founded in any reason and logic.
Yet, it is those who have no knowledge of any kind in related disciplines that want to impose their views on others and dictate who could or could not post in these forums.
Such individuals have strange (to put it mildly) views on many other subjects.
You see it all the time, the moment someone challenges those views they jump in dismissing even one’s right to post on these forums.

Elizabeth

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Re: Why power cord?
« Reply #94 on: 16 May 2012, 06:30 pm »
One problem is in the area of those who find cords do make a difference, some are reasonable folks making difficult judgements, others are swimming in deep waters, and some are crackpots who believe anything.
So  the field is littlered with different sorts of folks making all sorts of statements.
The actual fight comes in when one group of folks dispute the possibility the others can be correct.

European folks used to say the Earth was the center of the Universe, and did horrible things to folks who said different. this is human nature.
So we have 'belief' on BOTH sides. The skeptics 'believe' current knowledge is sufficient to prove the others wrong. And obviously the folks who can hear a difference are also certain the skeptics are wrong.

For myself i used to be a pretty solid skeptic, until I bought a cheap cord which made a hearable difference. (Pangea)
So I never was a die hard skeptic, but i did realize I can hear an improvement..And now accept others can too.
If a person does not wantto hear any difference, that is just as much subjective influence as those who need to hear a difference.

Finally why does it matter if another has a different experience than ours? Are we so fragile we need others to confirm out beliefs?

Waker

Re: Why power cord?
« Reply #95 on: 16 May 2012, 06:54 pm »
Quote
So, when someone says to me that he can hear a difference, I can't, and more importantly, won't say he's just dreaming
This is the position I wish everyone would take here--when someone takes the time to log on and report their findings from experience, they are attempting to add to the body of knowledge, to help others in their own decision making and spending. But, all too often, they are shot down by those who insist they are suckers for the hucksters or are just being fooled by psychoacoustic suggestion.  They emerge from the forest, bearing gold, and it turns to ashes. 
   There appear to be two ways for most of us in this hobby to reach our conclusions and form our beliefs--one way is through personal experience and the other is by believing what they are told by those whom they regard as authorities, and this second way is where the trouble lies--someone plants their flag in someone else's camp on heresay only.
   In cables, I believe in what I have experienced.  I just got rid of my older but expensive Transparent power cables after I built my own and heard the difference. Now I no longer believe in expensive cables--with the availability of high-quality DIY components, I know I can build a better one for less.
   Which is not to say cables are not important--they are.  Here's a direct quotation from my ARC owner's manual: "Use the best available speaker wires and interconnects. Audio Research cannot emphasize this enough.  As better components and sytems are developed, it becomes increasingly important to avoid the limitations of inferior system interconnections" (ARC, 2005, p.3).  Audio Research does not make, sell or promote cables of any brand.     
     

DaveNote

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Re: Why power cord?
« Reply #96 on: 16 May 2012, 07:19 pm »
I would not call believers those who can hear differences, it is another category I would say, and hearing a difference is not the contention for me.
And I do not think the comparison to disagreement on a movie really stands, movie critique is an entirely subjective view of expression, art, etc.
Preferences in this hobby are also very subjective, not everyone aims for truthful reproduction of the recording and not everyone has a reference in live unamplified sound of voices and instruments. You (and I) may prefer large(r) studio monitors, maybe not even for the same reasons, while some dismiss them as “non-audiophile” (whatever that may mean).
But we are not talking about preferences here at all.
I am not denying that power cord may introduce change in sound, but the point I am making is that those changes are negligible, to the extent that can be easily dismissed, and on such small scale that those who claim revelatory kind of improvement when power cords are swapped are in fact incapable of identifying those power cords when challenged.
Furthermore, those minute changes in sound can be correlated to measurements, there is nothing mystical about it, and only those who have no grasp in physics of any kind resort to irrational arguments completely devoid of any facts and science.
Same goes with cryo treatment, CD demagnetizers, etc. I could hear the change these things introduce, but it is so insignificant and inconsistently noticeable that I would never ever pay a penny for it, let alone thousands of $.
There is a whole industry developed around this that thrives on foolishness.
It is one thing to be engaged in discussion about this hobby, merits of technologies, preferences, and another to drivel all the time from hard position not founded in any reason and logic.
Yet, it is those who have no knowledge of any kind in related disciplines that want to impose their views on others and dictate who could or could not post in these forums.
Such individuals have strange (to put it mildly) views on many other subjects.
You see it all the time, the moment someone challenges those views they jump in dismissing even one’s right to post on these forums.

Sasha, I don't think you would find one of my posts here ever suggesting that someone who has posted an opinion, on whatever it is based, should not post. I am disturbed when I see exchanges get personal or heated, but this circle, thankfully, usually imposes a kind of self-regulation that keeps those exchanges from getting out of hand.

Without challenging your technical expertise, expertise i don't have, I somewhat disagee that what we're talking about - whether it is worth it to buy expensive aftermarket power cords - is not a matter preferences but of reason, fact and logic.

I agree with you absolutely that there are facts, maybe indisputable facts, involved in audio. But buying decisions, as I think your post concedes, sometimes are made for reasons by a consumer that are based on non-scientific facts and to those who don't make those buying decisions seem, and maybe are, entirely illogical. The attractiveness of that product, then, is in the eye of the beholder. In the case of audio, it is in the ear of the beholder. And it is on what an individual sees or hears that preferences are formed.

Take the examples you gave. You did not deny that you yourself have heard differences when testing out some kind of gear - cryo treatment, etc. - but that the result was so "insignificant and inconsistently noticeable" you would "never pay a penny for it, let alone thousands of $." Having been bitten this way myself spending too much money for too little benefit, were I too listen to the same thing, I might come to the same conclusion.

But there are those who will hear that insignificant difference and be willing to pay for it. But they do, as you do, hear a difference. So it is a matter of "preference" and being willing to pay for it.

I detect that what may trouble you more is not that people make the decisions you would not make - I don't think you're intolerant of others making personal choices - but that when they do, they might exaggerate the significance of the differences they hear. It can be irriitating, I agree, but it may be worthy more of a knowing smile than a grimace.

I'm more sympathetic to your other point, which is that industries have grown up around these things which, I take it, that you see as exploiting the gullible. If that is a great irritant to you, then in a world where there are endless numbers of industries that cater to every imaginable human foible, fad, and fantasy - and most of all preferences which are not your preferences -  then indeed I do sympathize with you in this respect - you must be irritated a great deal.

Dave

werd

Re: Why power cord?
« Reply #97 on: 16 May 2012, 07:23 pm »
This is the position I wish everyone would take here--when someone takes the time to log on and report their findings from experience, they are attempting to add to the body of knowledge, to help others in their own decision making and spending. But, all too often, they are shot down by those who insist they are suckers for the hucksters or are just being fooled by psychoacoustic suggestion.  They emerge from the forest, bearing gold, and it turns to ashes. 
   There appear to be two ways for most of us in this hobby to reach our conclusions and form our beliefs--one way is through personal experience and the other is by believing what they are told by those whom they regard as authorities, and this second way is where the trouble lies--someone plants their flag in someone else's camp on heresay only.
   In cables, I believe in what I have experienced.  I just got rid of my older but expensive Transparent power cables after I built my own and heard the difference. Now I no longer believe in expensive cables--with the availability of high-quality DIY components, I know I can build a better one for less.
   Which is not to say cables are not important--they are.  Here's a direct quotation from my ARC owner's manual: "Use the best available speaker wires and interconnects. Audio Research cannot emphasize this enough.  As better components and sytems are developed, it becomes increasingly important to avoid the limitations of inferior system interconnections" (ARC, 2005, p.3).  Audio Research does not make, sell or promote cables of any brand.     
     

People get to upset and their guard up way to much. Somewhere they seen some 1500 buck power cable and from then on the  entire topic gets abashed with.. .What a rip off.

I personally think that's way to much myself and way out of my price range. For a couple hundred bucks you can experiment with tons of different cables or just build them yourself like you did. Nonetheless you will see a more responsive soundstage over a generic pc.

Sasha

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Re: Why power cord?
« Reply #98 on: 16 May 2012, 07:47 pm »
Sasha, I don't think you would find one of my posts here ever suggesting that someone who has posted an opinion, on whatever it is based, should not post. I am disturbed when I see exchanges get personal or heated, but this circle, thankfully, usually imposes a kind of self-regulation that keeps those exchanges from getting out of hand.

Without challenging your technical expertise, expertise i don't have, I somewhat disagee that what we're talking about - whether it is worth it to buy expensive aftermarket power cords - is not a matter preferences but of reason, fact and logic.

I agree with you absolutely that there are facts, maybe indisputable facts, involved in audio. But buying decisions, as I think your post concedes, sometimes are made for reasons by a consumer that are based on non-scientific facts and to those who don't make those buying decisions seem, and maybe are, entirely illogical. The attractiveness of that product, then, is in the eye of the beholder. In the case of audio, it is in the ear of the beholder. And it is on what an individual sees or hears that preferences are formed.

Take the examples you gave. You did not deny that you yourself have heard differences when testing out some kind of gear - cryo treatment, etc. - but that the result was so "insignificant and inconsistently noticeable" you would "never pay a penny for it, let alone thousands of $." Having been bitten this way myself spending too much money for too little benefit, were I too listen to the same thing, I might come to the same conclusion.

But there are those who will hear that insignificant difference and be willing to pay for it. But they do, as you do, hear a difference. So it is a matter of "preference" and being willing to pay for it.

I detect that what may trouble you more is not that people make the decisions you would not make - I don't think you're intolerant of others making personal choices - but that when they do, they might exaggerate the significance of the differences they hear. It can be irriitating, I agree, but it may be worthy more of a knowing smile than a grimace.

I'm more sympathetic to your other point, which is that industries have grown up around these things which, I take it, that you see as exploiting the gullible. If that is a great irritant to you, then in a world where there are endless numbers of industries that cater to every imaginable human foible, fad, and fantasy - and most of all preferences which are not your preferences -  then indeed I do sympathize with you in this respect - you must be irritated a great deal.

Dave
Dave the comment about questioning the right of others to post was not aimed at you, this person will recognize himself, he is lurking around the corner and I am sure will jump in soon.  :D
What is irritating is pretentious and patronizing attitude of such people.
You have such people on the other side of the fence as well. Not once have I seen people who claim that interconnects can have no impact because they all pass square wave in the same manner without visible alterations on oscilloscope. This is bastardized application of science and measurements aimed at proving one’s clearly incompetent assessment. This is the same kind of BS as glorification of power cords you have on the other end.

cheap-Jack

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Re: Why NOT power cord?
« Reply #99 on: 16 May 2012, 08:13 pm »
Hi.
So, when someone says to me that he can hear a difference, I can't, and more importantly, won't say he's just dreaming. And even if he were dreaming, why should I try to deny him his dream. Isn't true that audio enthusiasts - audiophiles - in a way are in a very dreamy hobby?Dave

HiFi is a dream - an illusion to bring a live performance back home, IMO. Audiophile or what not, regardless.

So when someone tells you what you can't hear, I would find out WHY I can't hear it thru the SAME audio system at the SAME place, instead of labelling that person a "dreamer".

Maybe I am not sonically & musically good enough to hear what other can hear & that person may have a better trained ears than mine! So why start pointing fingers???? It only brings YOU nowhere.

Unfortunately, not many audio fans can be so self aware!

Like fishing, when the angler seated right next to me got big catch while I got nothing on the hook, I'd be wondering WHY I could not make a catch?? Skill or what?

Likewise, I have nearly given up my CD-audio & DVD-audio for a year now, listening vinyls instead. I bet you I know what I am doing & what I am listening as I have LIVED with the digital & analouge media long ENOUGH to make such choice. Those who have not spent long enough time to LIVE with it surely don't appreciate WHY I go analogue.

But please don't start labelling me "a dreamer" because of one's self sonical & musical inadquacy.

c-J