[neobop]

So I'm curious that while these two cartridges share a basic technology, where does the additional cost come from?

On occasion J Carr posts on Audiogon. This thread was about a ZYX cart with tracking problems. OP got some misinformation from a competing stylus mfg. ZYX uses microridge.
Regarding stylus issue:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1330019170&openflup&5&4#5

Regarding costs for Atlas:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1330019170&openflup&11&4#11

[TONEPUB]

Jeff, What did you mean by this? What's the digital connection/comparison here?

The rabbit hole I've been chasing for some time has been the analog vs. digital debate.  I've always been a pretty equal fan of both, but every time my analog front end makes a major jump, I then have to make a big digital upgrade as well and vice versa.  Adding the Atlas, the ARC REF Phono 2 SE and the Vitus MPP-201 has pushed analog out in front pretty far again.  I don't dislike my digital setup, but the gap between the two has been widened significantly...

Madness, I tell you.

[Mike Lavigne]

The rabbit hole I've been chasing for some time has been the analog vs. digital debate.  I've always been a pretty equal fan of both, but every time my analog front end makes a major jump, I then have to make a big digital upgrade as well and vice versa.  Adding the Atlas, the ARC REF Phono 2 SE and the Vitus MPP-201 has pushed analog out in front pretty far again.  I don't dislike my digital setup, but the gap between the two has been widened significantly...

Madness, I tell you.

interesting point; and one i completely agree with.

lately i've been enjoying playing dsd and 2xdsd from my music server and noting that digital is doing very well.

but vinyl has been moving forward at an even faster pace i think. new cartridges, tonearms and tt's have moved the performance reference of vinyl ahead of the pace of digital.

i'm now listening to a new cartridge that competes with the Atlas, the Ortofon Anna. and i have made that same comment to others that vinyl has just leaped farther ahead. when i read your comment i felt compelled to support it. i'll also add that i also use my RTR decks and master dubs as a reference, and vinyl has also progressed forward compared to that reference also.

i recently owned and enjoyed a Lyra Olympos SL and so look forward to reading your review and hearing (the reportedly even better) Atlas. but we are all fortunate to have people making products like these to move our hobby forward.

[neobop]

The last two posts make me think about the old concept of diminishing returns. Maybe if you have the necessary associated equipment, those returns might not be all that diminished.  I never heard a $10K cart, but if you can afford it, why not?

http://www.lyraaudio.com/

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/100/1000678.html

[TONEPUB]

interesting point; and one i completely agree with.

lately i've been enjoying playing dsd and 2xdsd from my music server and noting that digital is doing very well.

but vinyl has been moving forward at an even faster pace i think. new cartridges, tonearms and tt's have moved the performance reference of vinyl ahead of the pace of digital.

i'm now listening to a new cartridge that competes with the Atlas, the Ortofon Anna. and i have made that same comment to others that vinyl has just leaped farther ahead. when i read your comment i felt compelled to support it. i'll also add that i also use my RTR decks and master dubs as a reference, and vinyl has also progressed forward compared to that reference also.

i recently owned and enjoyed a Lyra Olympos SL and so look forward to reading your review and hearing (the reportedly even better) Atlas. but we are all fortunate to have people making products like these to move our hobby forward.

Mike, the Anna is also fantastic...

I had the Olympos SL for review a while back and think of the Atlas as the exact opposite - both cartridges are very resolving, but where the Olympos is more romantic, the Atlas is more extended, but not forward like someone might find a Titan-i.

So, I don't know if I'd call the Atlas "better" (though some would) but I would call it very different.

[neobop]

Interesting to note the similarities between these two carts, even though they look quite different.
http://www.ortofon.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=365&Itemid=399

Both use titanium body and have some kind of advanced cantilever coupling.

Both are value products in the extreme high end.      Clearaudio and Koetsu offer $15K models. Some people (including Tony Cordesman?) think the Soundsmith Strain Gauge might blow away everything. 
I see Atlas has a diamond coated boron cantilever like my Genesis 1K (avatar). No new technology here, only refinements. If the cantilever coupling or whatever leads to better performance, it's a refinement. I suspect that titanium is an unnecessary expense. Ortofon seems to have developed some kind of process for building the body. Atlas is machined asymmetrically out of a block of titanium? I think this cart could be made to retail for half the price with virtually identical performance, if a more cost effective body were devised. Titanium is no big deal in this application. I have a titanium arm, it's harder, but not immune to resonance. Atlas healthy output and specs don't look particularly impressive. I wonder what eff tip mass is for these two.
http://www.needledoctor.com/Lyra-Atlas-Phono-Cartridge?sc=2&category=270

neo

[TONEPUB]

My only question is that if you've never heard any of the cartridges in the 10-15k price range, how can you possibly say "you think it could be made for half as much"...

[neobop]

That's not what I said.   
"I suspect that titanium is an unnecessary expense." Then I went on to say why.

I also suspect that cantilever coupling and design of the coils is the major reason for improvement.
The reduced contact area of the mounting plate is to more effectively couple, and transmit vibrations to the arm. I'm guessing that virtually nothing would be sacrificed by using material(s) other than titanium.

The only $15K carts I know of are a Koetsu and a Clearaudio. To be honest, I wouldn't mind hearing one, but it's not a priority. You don't know what my experience is with high end carts. The Genesis 1000 cost $1K back in '88. I prefer it to the 2000 which cost $2K in '89. What would they cost today? My partner in the electronics mfg biz had a VDH. No big deal if you can afford it.  I believe what you say about performance, so put your wallet back in your pants. That doesn't lend credibility. Like I said, not exactly new technology.
neo

[TONEPUB]

My wallet isn't out of my pants.  And no, I don't know what your experience is other than the fact that you just said you haven't heard anything in this price range....

And without having an extensive talk with Jonathan Carr (which will be completed) before the end of the review, it's hard to say why he chose the materials he did.

Considering how tough this material is to work with, I'm guessing there must be a logical reason.  But we'll find out when we chat.

[neobop]

That conversation could be enlightening if Carr doesn't just blow smoke or hype it. I think he's the designer and not the owner of Lyra so you might have to dig a little. I wouldn't expect him to say anything other than performance is dependant on everything.

I was curious about the Kleos fr resp graph on page 2, so I googled the Test Factory/Germany. The 1st hit was on Sony Corp testing a digital format.
http://www.sony.net/Products/ATRAC3/tech/evaluation.html

then came ELAC.
http://elac.ro/BS_204a_rev-audio.html

This graph could be more relevant than intimated. Carr might have come up with a suspension damping scheme that is unique.  It looks like primary hf res would be 30K or more, but suddenly stops at 20K +8dB. Ordinarily there would be negative phase/imaging implications if that broad peak (down to 8K) was the result of damping. Maybe it isn't entirely ?  It could be separation is responsible for good imaging characteristics and phase is just as compromised as every other MC. I don't know what a Kleos factory graph looks like. If very different, it could be copy machine variety. Either that or QC is poor, which I doubt. 

The two lower lines (red + blue) show the crosstalk between the channels up to 20 kHz.

The upper black line (both channels) shows the frequency response up to 50 kHz with a +8 dB peak at 20 kHz.

The Kleos uses two asymmetric rubber pieces for the suspension.

[jfrech]

Hi, I've owned 4 Lyra's in my lifetime.  1 Lydian Beta, 1 Helicon and 2 Skala's.  Plus I've corresponded some with Jonathan Carr along we reading a few of his posts on a'gon.  This guy is a wealth of info, is very selfless and doesn't promote his goods.  He presents facts backed by data, his point of views, and how he designs his offerings.

Then Mr Carr lets the market and our ears be the determining factor on what is right.

He is one classy guy in our industry...

[Carl V]

presently have a Basis with the Vector arm & a Skala.
Moslty happy. Own the Kleos Mono cart. on a different table.


Do have any experience with these?

[jfrech]

Hi Jeff, really great to read your Atlas review.  I to own a Triplanar (current model)  Some say this tonearm isn't a great match with the Atlas or Lyra's in general.  Did you try the Atlas with other arms and any comments on this?  Seems pretty much the Atlas is world class, I've always been a Lyra fan (having owned 4 over the years)

Anymore tonearm demo's/trials in your near future?  I am curious about the new Graham Supreme and maybe the Reed 3p...

Great magazine you have..Thanks !!

[Berndt]

Just reading the add press for the atlas.
It is mentioned that the titanium body is hand carved.
How do they hand carve titanium?

[Ericus Rex]

They pushed the "On" button on the CNC machine with their hand?     

[TONEPUB]

Just reading the add press for the atlas.
It is mentioned that the titanium body is hand carved.
How do they hand carve titanium?

That's pretty weird.  It may be an error in translation from Japanese.  When I interviewed Jonathan Carr, he said (and the folks at Leica said the same thing when talking about the M9 titanium body) that the method used for machining titanium is more like "shaving" it than cutting in the way you cut aluminum.  Perhaps that's the confusion.

Hi Jeff, really great to read your Atlas review.  I to own a Triplanar (current model)  Some say this tonearm isn't a great match with the Atlas or Lyra's in general.  Did you try the Atlas with other arms and any comments on this?  Seems pretty much the Atlas is world class, I've always been a Lyra fan (having owned 4 over the years)

Anymore tonearm demo's/trials in your near future?  I am curious about the new Graham Supreme and maybe the Reed 3p...

Great magazine you have..Thanks !!

Joe Harley thinks the TriPlanar is an excellent match with the Lyra carts and I've had excellent luck with the Lyra Atlas on my AVID Acutus Ref SP.  I also used a TriPlanar with a Lyra Skala when I had the Spiral Groove with equally good results.

Graham and Reed are both on the way as well as a few other things! We also had a review on the Funk Firm FX•R on our website here:

http://www.tonepublications.com/analogaholic/funk-firm-has-a-winner/

Our next issue will also be all analog!  More cartridges, turntables and phono preamps

Keep an eye on the "Analogaholic" section of our website - we are always posting additional reviews that aren't in the magazine.

And, thank you for reading, we certainly appreciate it..

[TONEPUB]

presently have a Basis with the Vector arm & a Skala.
Moslty happy. Own the Kleos Mono cart. on a different table.


Do have any experience with these?

Hi Carl,

Sorry no Basis experience, though I am a fan.  Just can't pry one out of them!  Just got a Kleos Mono last week,
we will have a follow up to the Kleos Stereo in the next issue of TONEAudio...   So far, really enjoying it.  I'm using it
on a VPI Classic, so that I can just swap arm wands when I want to go from Mono to Stereo.

[neobop]

Nice magazine. It seems to me that I was previously able to read an individual review without downloading the entire issue. But then I would have missed the re-issue on 180g vinyl of Miles - Fri/Sat night live at the Blackhawk. Great records. Did you know that there was a vol 3 and 4? They're rare, even on CD.

I didn't think there would be any great revelation from Carr. Nice review(s), BTW. I hate wading through 10,000 words to find out what someone thinks.
neo

[TONEPUB]

Thanks.  We are in the process of getting all of the reviews from back issues up on the web for those not wanting to download the whole issue.  But as you noticed, there are plenty of other goodies to make it worth your while.

Normally, we try and keep reviews in the 1200 -1500 word range, but I felt it was really important to evaluate the Atlas in the context of the other two cartridges down the line to really get the feel for what it offers.

[Toni Rambold]

The review of the Lyra Atlas in Stereoplay 4/2012 is now published on the website of the German distributor:

http://www.fastaudio.com/workspace/uploads/downloads/stp_04_12_sd_atlas.pdf

with the TESTfactory measurements: