[jtwrace]

So who made these "accurate" measurements?

Anyway, for those so interested, the Atlas is on it's way to being completely dialed in and is pretty fabulous.  Though I haven't really had any time to compare it to other setups yet, the initial response is that the sound is BIG.  HUGE is more like it.  Kind of sounds like I've got surround speakers somewhere, but I don't....

More to come.

Very cool! 

Are you sure you don't want to try a Longhorn though?   

[TheChairGuy]

Very cool! 

Are you sure you don't want to try a Longhorn though?

Funny guy

Jeff strikes me as mostly agnostic - relatively pricey and relatively inexpensive gear runs thru his or his reviewers hands and he reviews it.

If he hears something worthy about the Longhorn Gold1 Grado out there, despite who is making them, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if he reviewed it....and give his real response to it.

He doesn't strike me as the sort that carries a grudge too long from some swipe on an anonymous audio forum in cyberspace. If there is merit and it's made available to him under the right conditions - I suspect he'd review it. 

[Toni Rambold]

Maybe I can get in touch with Jonathan Carr to comment.

... maybe, maybe ...

Definitely maybe he should have a look at the websites of his distributors first
and find the pdf-file of the review with the measurements I have posted.

The Atlas measurements will be out on the first weekend in march -
maybe he can comment these too ?

Buh-bye

[TONEPUB]

... maybe, maybe ...

Definitely maybe he should have a look at the websites of his distributors first
and find the pdf-file of the review with the measurements I have posted.

The Atlas measurements will be out on the first weekend in march -
maybe he can comment these too ?

Buh-bye

The distributor (AudioQuest) does not carry the mystery review with the mystery measurements.

Maybe it would have been easier for someone to just answer the question, rather than make
the usual snarkey comments.

We can measure frequency response with the Feickert Adjust Pro software, so perhaps this might
be intriguing.  However, because I'm not really a trained engineer, I wonder how valid those measurements
would really be, but it's worth a shot.

However if this cartridge actually had a 10db boost at 20k it would be so bright it would send you out of the room screaming for mercy. 

But maybe Toni doesn't actually have a Kleos or hasn't heard one.

Maybe we should stop talking in the third person.  It's incredibly rude.

As for the longhorn, not interested. Doesn't look like anything more than attaching a penny to the headshell.
Just adding mass to an existing cartridge, no matter how carefully done is just a kludge.  How is this any different than just adding a weight to the headshell, or using another, heavier headshell?

I've always enjoyed the budget Grados though.   Nice carts for the money.

[jtwrace]

However if this cartridge actually had a 10db boost at 20k it would be so bright it would send you out of the room screaming for mercy. 

I'd say that it can be true but it simply doesn't matter because we can't hear that high anyway. 

[TONEPUB]

Perhaps, but even that slope looks like that of a receiver with the treble control turned all the way up.

[neobop]

You would hear it, no doubt. Ortofon studied imaging in the early '80s and measured an MC200 and 5 unnamed MMs with an accelerometer to get phase vs amplitude response. The commentary is educational regarding brightness, imaging vs phase and frequency response. If anyone is interested it's in VE.

Lyra switched distributors recently. Maybe that's why the file is gone. The old distributor might be Musical Surroundings? Not sure.

No need to get personal with this stuff. We're discussing phono cartridges. That's what I'm interested in. The plot in question looks rather crude and no information is presented about test conditions, equipment used etc. YMMV ?

The longhorn is supposed to act like an outrigger, stabilizing an underdamped suspension. It would lower the center of gravity and is said to work. I've never used one.

I don't know J Carr. I just thought it would be interesting to hear what he would say.
neo

[jtwrace]

You would hear it, no doubt.

Being that there isn't equipment that can measure that high on a human, I doubt anyone.

[Berndt]

Now that had to be a bad day.  Wonder if he or she was texting! 

I saw this on FB. The story I heard was the driver was impatient in the construction traffic. As a city worker in SF, I see this all the time. His insurance will pay for his impatience. I'm sure the driver gave those poor vote a life of his mind.

[neobop]

The rise starts around 7, 8K. Plenty of people can consciously hear way above that. Having the overtones exaggerated makes the treble sound harsh and  shrill. This has been verified numerous times. MCs have a naturally rising high end that is tamed by damping. Ortofon published plots of this MC (MC200) with varying amounts of damping. In this case high frequency resonance was at 27K. It said; Typically an undamped MC will start to rise at 5 or 6K to + 8dB  at 20K and peaks at about 15 to 18dB at 25 to 28K. They characterized the sound as extremely bright and unlistenable. Listening panels were used to evaluate the sound.

[BaMorin]

I'd say that it can be true but it simply doesn't matter because we can't hear that high anyway.

Yes we can, yes we do. The frequencies above/below what we can identify (in the singular range) affect tone/timbre. Daylight, being up in the Mhz range, creates a noise you can't hear. But you can "hear" when it's not there.

[avahifi]

The Longhorn is a bit more than sticking a penny on top of the headshell.

The Longhorn bar is lead weighted at the ends and damped.  The purpose is to provide a high polar moment of inertia to resist the twisting motion the 45/45 grooves in the record attempt to input into the cartridge.  It behaves like a tightrope walker's pole.  It works.

It is interesting how you can dismiss something musically useful available at a low cost and be so enamored with a $10,000 phono cartridge that exhibits an unacceptable frequency response measurement.  We have even published the details of the Longhorn and I know of nobody who has actually tired it to not be impressed.

Are your reviewer qualifications so good that you can dismiss something out of hand you have never heard?

The trouble with so called hi end audio is that the high price too easily takes president over actual value and clouds judgment.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[neobop]

Hi FVA,
Nice to hear from you. I have little doubt about the effectiveness of your longhorn mod. I've read the testimonials. Personally, I think the idea is a stroke of genius.

Regarding the fr plot in question, it's not for the $10K one, it's for a lowly $3K one, and the parentage of the plot is in question. 
neo

[TONEPUB]

The Longhorn is a bit more than sticking a penny on top of the headshell.

The Longhorn bar is lead weighted at the ends and damped.  The purpose is to provide a high polar moment of inertia to resist the twisting motion the 45/45 grooves in the record attempt to input into the cartridge.  It behaves like a tightrope walker's pole.  It works.

It is interesting how you can dismiss something musically useful available at a low cost and be so enamored with a $10,000 phono cartridge that exhibits an unacceptable frequency response measurement.  We have even published the details of the Longhorn and I know of nobody who has actually tired it to not be impressed.

Are your reviewer qualifications so good that you can dismiss something out of hand you have never heard?

The trouble with so called hi end audio is that the high price too easily takes president over actual value and clouds judgment.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

Just like your pal Wayner, you aren't paying attention.  Though I own about 250k worth of analog gear for my reference front end, three of my reference cartridges are priced below $400. The Denon DL-103r, the Shure V15mxvr, and the Ortofon VMS 20mk. II (purchased as NOS for $100 and quite good)  I also take advantage of a Technics 1200, a bone Stock Linn LP-12 and a Rega RP3, again all very affordable/accessible tables.

As I mentioned before, you can't gauge performance of either end of the spectrum unless you have examples of small, medium and large readily at your disposal.  As for my "qualifications" I don't know of any other reviewer that has the extensive collection of analog gear at their disposal to do direct A-B comparisons.  A few people like Michael Fremer have their megabuck tables like the $150k Continuum, which is certainly an example of the best that analog has to offer, but I haven't run across anyone yet that actually has a wide range of tables, cartridges and phono preamplifiers on hand to make said comparisons.

I have heard a Longhorn.  It's no big deal.  And it's still a kludge.

If this is such a brilliant solution, than why has no other manufacturer on Earth (all people that make cartridges for a living BTW, not people that mod things) adopted this technology?  Hmmm.

If expense clouded my judgement, I wouldn't have picked the $1000 Rega Brio - R integrated amplifier as our product of the year, nor would we regularly award products in the $1500 and down category.  We also review more gear in this price category than anyone, not to mention the amount of ink we dedicate to solid vintage gear.

You should do your homework before you criticize me or my publication. 

[BaMorin]

If this is such a brilliant solution, than why has no other manufacturer on Earth (all people that make cartridges for a living BTW, not people that mod things) adopted this technology?  Hmmm.

 

Typing this with a bit of sense of humor, and no ill-humor directed at you or Frank:  Maybe the cart manufacturers are trusting the arms the carts are being played in don't have rattle trap bearings in the horizontal and vertical planes, and that the lateral inertia and balance of the arms is near zero as zero can be made?

[neobop]

For years consumers have speculated that the fr plots supplied with carts were run off on a copy machine.     I'm not saying that is the case here, but what if a sample really looked like or close to the one we looked at? It's strange how response goes up to 20K and looks undamped, then it goes back down and winds up nearly flat at 50K. That seems like an unusual resonance/damping pattern. Could something like this, or similar, be a technique to get spectacular imaging? In that Ortofon paper I talked about, they said the undamped MC200 had amazing imaging, but was too bright. The more the cart was damped for flatter response, the more the imaging suffered. There could be a number of things that would make that plot look worse than it is, phono stage response, loading, VTA/SRA. Even on the plot we saw there's no rise at all until 8K.

This is just idle curiosity. When I saw that plot, I couldn't help but think of this. We'll probably have to wait for the review to get all the opulent details about Atlas. I wonder if anyone tests carts vs the supplied graphs, chart recorder vs copy machine. Battle of the Titans?   
neo

[TheChairGuy]

Frank van Alstine and Jeff/TONEPUB: let the last salvo between you be the last salvo between you on this topic, please   

Whether your differences are philosophical or based on reality....you both took your shots and made your points clear.  Now, the topic is about the Lyra Atlas so let's continue on that path or closely related points along with it.

Thanks, John / Facilitator

[TONEPUB]

For years consumers have speculated that the fr plots supplied with carts were run off on a copy machine.     I'm not saying that is the case here, but what if a sample really looked like or close to the one we looked at? It's strange how response goes up to 20K and looks undamped, then it goes back down and winds up nearly flat at 50K. That seems like an unusual resonance/damping pattern. Could something like this, or similar, be a technique to get spectacular imaging? In that Ortofon paper I talked about, they said the undamped MC200 had amazing imaging, but was too bright. The more the cart was damped for flatter response, the more the imaging suffered. There could be a number of things that would make that plot look worse than it is, phono stage response, loading, VTA/SRA. Even on the plot we saw there's no rise at all until 8K.

This is just idle curiosity. When I saw that plot, I couldn't help but think of this. We'll probably have to wait for the review to get all the opulent details about Atlas. I wonder if anyone tests carts vs the supplied graphs, chart recorder vs copy machine. Battle of the Titans?   
neo

These are all excellent points.  I think the real problem is how to measure cartridge frequency response accurately and repeatedly, so that the data is actually meaningful.

Having listened to the Atlas now for the better part of the week and comparing it to a number of other tables, it really is pretty exciting.  And it's unfortunate that the price tag is so high.  Part of the questioning with Jonathan Carr, the designer of the cartridge, is where the expense comes in.  Playing it side by side with an identical table/arm combination using the $3000 Lyra Kleos, the difference between the two cartridges is night and day on my main system. 

When I reviewed the mega expensive Leica Titanium M9 (I think about 20k) vs. the standard issue M9 (about 6k) the folks at Leica told me that the main reason for the price diff (aside from exclusivity) was the amount of machining time and tool cost for an aluminum body vs. titanium.  Also, the scrap rate was near zero on aluminum.

Often the price hike on a lot of audios top electronics come from the hand sorting, testing and matching to tight tolerances of components.

So I'm curious that while these two cartridges share a basic technology, where does the additional cost come from?

All of that being said, I would have to say that this is one of the most amazing analog experiences I've had.  Definitely has me rethinking a few things in the world of digital.

[TONEPUB]

One more thing in response to Neobop's post, about VTA/SRA, because this new generation of Lyra carts is in optimum alignment when the cartridge is seated down on the record, alignment is much more critical than that of other cartridges, even past Lyra's.

When Joe Harley from AudioQuest/Lyra visited yesterday, he spent the better part of the afternoon explaining this and showing me how to dial the new generation of carts in, as they do for their dealers.  This went a long way at changing the overall sound of the cartridge, so I suspect again, that it might be very easy to set this cart up WRONG and get a fairly peaky set of HF measurements.

The Atlas is also more critical of tracking force and loading than a lot of other cartridges Ive used.  Not tough, but an extra hour spent making minute adjustments really yielded huge results.   Much like my MartinLogan CLX speakers.  They took the better part of the day to really nail the setup and once done, provided a dramatically better experience than when just taken out of the box and roughed in.

I suspect this is why a fair amount of gear at this level is always so harshly criticized.  If it isn't dialed in, the experience is way less enjoyable.

[roscoeiii]

Definitely has me rethinking a few things in the world of digital.

Jeff, What did you mean by this? What's the digital connection/comparison here?