[roscoeiii]

You, on the other hand, are in a very lucrative position, able to do reviews, then buy the reviewed and now, used cartridge. I'm sure you will give it your most thumbs up nod, if i were the manufacturer, I would expect nothing less. Perhaps at the end of the year, it can end up in the most recommended product list.'

w

C'mon, that's not entirely fair. Not only Jeff's but also the other reviewers' pieces in Tone do a fine job of describing the characteristics of the pieces of equipment that they review. Most pieces of equipment these days, and at many prices are very good at what they do. These reviewers help us decide what might best suit our systems and preferences. I have read enough of Tone's reviews and agreed with enough of their assessments in reviews and in their awards that I am comfortable with however the Atlas is assessed. Maybe it replaces the ultra-highend Rega Brio-R as Product of the Year, maybe not. 

[Devil Doc]

Well Wayner, I'm not sure how to answer your question until you answer mine. Do cartridges have a shelf life? If they do spending ten grand on one doesn't seem prudent to me.
Doc

[Toni Rambold]

I'm not sorry at all, it's a fantastic cartridge.  Is it worth almost ten grand?  That depends.  In the context of a modest system, no it isn't in the context of a world class system, it is. Just depends on your budget, your system, your software and your priorities.

... what You really need is a $150k turntable on long-term loan ... 



... and the setup brothers for free ... 


Have Fun !

[Ericus Rex]

Feeling feisty today, Wayner?   We all have our vices that are worth whatever we think they're worth; cars, guitars, motorcycles, antique ammeters, whatever.  Let Tonepub have his fun today.

[TONEPUB]

Yes they do have a shelf life.  But so do a set of Pirelli Zeros on a new Porsche or Ferrari.  And every 4000 miles you need a new set at about $3000 a pop.  A cartridge is a consumable item.

The comment "I wouldn't buy one even if I could afford one" is really pretty silly for a number of reasons. Because you can't afford one, it's automatically invalid.  You don't know what you would or wouldn't buy if you "could afford it." Most of the people I know that buy things like this have their bases covered.

Where you get horribly confused, Wayner is in telling people what they should do with their money, and that they should spend it how you would.  It's not your place or mine.

My job is to evaluate the gear, regardless of what it costs or doesn't cost.  If you've got a problem with expensive things that you can't afford, that's your limitation not mine.  There are plenty of things I can't afford that I still find great, even though I can't have them. 

I just spent a weekend in Spain with a few million dollars worth of new Porsches and as much as I wish I could have a new 911 Carrera S Cabriolet, it's not in the budget.  Great car though, and I had a great time driving it. Am I as happy driving my Fiat 500 two days later? Sure, it's paid for.  Do I get a smile on my face thinking of all the amazing (out of my price range) cars I've driven?  All the time.  It really doesn't bother me that I can't have one.  Like hifi, there's always the used market.  Today's $100,000 Porsche will be $25,000 in about seven years.

I'm so tired of the reverse snobbery with the "I enjoy listening to music on my XYZ whatever that cost .01% of the expensive thing you're listening to" line of reasoning.  If you love music, all you need is a used $200 laptop and a Spotify subscription. 

We review a wider spectrum of gear from a price point standard than anyone else and I'm very conscious of that.  A recent readers survey had our readers split 50/50.  Half of them wanted to see more budget gear covered and half wanted to see more sky's the limit gear reviewed, so we will continue to pursue small, medium, large and super sized gear.

I also find the snide comment about the Atlas appearing in our rec components because it's expensive, as if that were the only criteria pretty short sighted.  Unlike most of our print competitors, again, we give out way fewer awards than any of them and we also review way more gear from non-advertisers than any of them.

And, it's always intriguing to see just how much of the technology that's present in any manufacturer's flagship product makes it down to their lesser offerings.  You don't know that unless you have the opportunity to test drive the big boy.

Again, our job is to investigate, not to pre qualify or pre judge the people who can or can't buy this stuff. The reader who can afford the Atlas, does want to know how this cartridge stands up to similarly priced stuff and from the lower cartridges in the Lyra line.

If you can afford an Atlas, bully for you, you will enjoy it.  If you can't, there's a thousand other cartridges that will provide musically involving performance.  One of my personal favorites (also one of our Rec Components) is the Denon DL103R - $379.  Is the Atlas 25 times better than the Denon?  Probably not, but the Atlas provides a unique experience that you can't get without going to one of the other megabuck cartridges, so the price is meaningless on one level.  If you want the experience that the Atlas offers, that's what it costs. If 90% or 70% or 50% of that level of performance is only $10, it's meaningless if that's the experience you want. You can play or you can't.

So just admit the jealousy and get on with it Wayner.  It's really pretty juvenile.

[TONEPUB]

... what You really need is a $150k turntable on long-term loan ... 



... and the setup brothers for free ... 


Have Fun !

Thanks.

I really don't have any of my reference components on long term loan, except for the Audio Research REF 5 preamplifier, which I was ready to write the check for, until I found out the SE model was on its way.

But we'd certainly be happy to take that Clear for a spin.  Who knows?

We keep most review gear for 4-8 weeks and send it back promptly.  Now and then, things stay a little longer, but for the most part, it's returned promptly.

[roscoeiii]

Well put Jeff.

And folks lets keep AC civil. The civility and sense of community is one of the main reasons this is my go-to audio forum.

[TheChairGuy]

Wayner,

Next time you feel the need to, again, decide to give all of us your version of a morality lesson - you will be forcing my hand and I will ask that you no longer post in the Vinyl Circle.

This has gone on for too many years - and the common trigger EACH TIME is the topic of a relatively costly component.  Your opinion of what is ludicrously expensive or not is not required - so butt out or you will be asked to leave.

You have a lot to offer, so the Vinyl Circle might be worse off for losing you, but your outbursts cannot and will no longer be tolerated.  Don't PM me, please - I'm disgusted that you've gone down this road again and beat up your fellow vinyl enthusiasts here.

Several of the last posts were pruned and tossed in the IGW so we can maybe keep this topic moving forward.

John / Moderator

[neobop]

Actually, cartridges have a long shelf life, depending on what you mean by long. It's not at all unusual for 30 + yr old NOS carts to be fine. Synthetic rubber in the suspension doesn't dry up as commonly believed, at least not in 30 or 40 yrs. Blue Angel, the guy in S Africa who makes the Mantis, has bags of old carts given to him. He says that he hasn't seen a dried up rubber piece yet. It's usually the suspension wire that eventually fails. I wonder if they'll be playing records a hundred yrs from now. I'll bet a NOS cart will be fine. Good luck collecting on that bet.   

[Toni Rambold]

Very excited to see how this compares to the Skala and Kleos.

... by the way, it would be interesting to know if the Atlas shows similar high frequency deviations as the Kleos:


Can you measure the frequency response ?

[opnly bafld]

OT WARNING!

I just spent a weekend in Spain with a few million dollars worth of new Porsches and as much as I wish I could have a new 911 Carrera S Cabriolet, it's not in the budget. 

Not in my budget either (probably couldn't even afford the liability insurance on it), but I think this guy should give me his car.

[SteveFord]

Simply because Tonepub reviews items that I can't even dream of affording I feel more comfortable with the magazine's recommendations.
They KNOW what good equipment sounds like and will have a proper frame of reference, similar to TAS.
Some sources will have a glowing review and when you actually hear the reviewed item you have to wonder what they are used to listening to. 
Even my non-audiophile neighbor agreed that it is much, much better than my wife's Bose Wave Radio out in the garage by the washing machine...
I'm not really interested in the Lyra review as I'll never own one but I am looking forward to reading about the new $400 Ortofon.

[TONEPUB]

OT WARNING!

Not in my budget either (probably couldn't even afford the liability insurance on it), but I think this guy should give me his car.

Now that had to be a bad day.  Wonder if he or she was texting! 

[TONEPUB]

... by the way, it would be interesting to know if the Atlas shows similar high frequency deviations as the Kleos:



Can you measure the frequency response ?

Just curious, where did that come from?  That certainly doesn't look like the plot I got with my Kleos...

And, FYI for those grumpy about us being too excited about expensive hifi, we just finished a review on the Red Wine Audio Sig 15 integrated amp.  Killer sound for $1500...

[neobop]

That plot looks like the damper was removed from the suspension. Kleos is spec to 50K. It would be up around 20dB or more according to that plot. Seeing a rise like that before 10K - the cart would cause ear bleeds. More likely a bad test.

[Toni Rambold]

The two lower lines (red + blue) show the crosstalk between the channels up to 20 kHz.

The upper black line (both channels) shows the frequency response up to 50 kHz with a +8 dB peak at 20 kHz.

The Kleos uses two asymmetric rubber pieces for the suspension.

[neobop]

That's even worse. I was assuming the FR plot ended at 20K where the separate R and L traces end. I find it hard to believe that this is representative of the cart. Maybe I can get in touch with Jonathan Carr to comment. That might be interesting.

[roscoeiii]

Where are those measurements from? Pretty surprising rise above 10k for sure.

[TONEPUB]

So who made these "accurate" measurements?

Anyway, for those so interested, the Atlas is on it's way to being completely dialed in and is pretty fabulous.  Though I haven't really had any time to compare it to other setups yet, the initial response is that the sound is BIG.  HUGE is more like it.  Kind of sounds like I've got surround speakers somewhere, but I don't....

More to come.

[JackD201]

I envy you Jeff. I'm on the wait list and it looks to be a long wait for us here in South East Asia.