[josh358]

Great to hear your enjoying it so much!

For some very convincing measurements, go down not quite to the bottom of this page but near it, to the graphs that show "monopole all modes," "dipole all modes, aligned," and "cardioid, all modes aligned." Three white graphs in the center of the page. It's a measurement of woofer impulse response and you can see that the dipole woofer is seriously better than the monopole woofer (which is a standard omnidirectional woofer) and cardioid woofer, since it's only throwing bass in one dimension -- the length of the room -- while the others are throwing it in three. And good impulse response means not only good time behavior but good frequency response, they're linked mathematically.

If you go down a bit further and look at the next set of graphs you can see what happens to the dipole when you give it a 45 degree toe-in, instead of having it parallel to the front wall. It's still better than the monopole and cardioid woofers, but not by much. The reason for that is that the dipole is now throwing energy not just down the lengths of the room but on the side walls as well, so instead of having only 1/3 the reflections of the monopole and cardioid you have 2/3 of the reflections. You still don't have floor/ceiling reflections, though, which is why it's still a bit better than the omni and the cardioid.

http://www.musicanddesign.com/Dipole_modesA.html

[Letitroll98]

That is actually the best explanation on that I've seen. And measuring will probably be a neat eye opener on that.

I dont want to give noobs the wrong idea though: these are not jbl's or house party speakers. It's about sq in your room. Once they are playing, and you're there listening, it's nearly impossible to pry yourself away. Hell I barely slept last night because of them.

And it shows how little there is musically below 40hz.  E1 on a bass is 41hz, of course there are contrabassoons, pipe organs, lowest keys on a Bösendorfer Imperial Grand Piano that go below that, but not much real music.  There is a sense of hall, of spaciousness, that a good sub can bring, but generally quality over quantity will serve you the best. 

[Rclark]

What has been heard cannot be unheard.

My subwoofer is still shut off. Never thought I'd see this day. But I went ahead and turned the sub on this afternoon. However, my ears were locked into what the speakers were doing on their own and the sub, for the first time ever sounded terrible! No twisting of knobs could alleviate it. You were all rights, I was wrong, I am now sprinkling hot sauce onto my hat.

Suddenly I'm hearing that blur that you talked about. Suddenly it wasn't such a pleasant sub.

I'm hoping the Epik Legends will be a better fit. By all accounts they should be, but wow. NEVER thought this could happen. For the time being I am happily 2.0.

 thanks for  the links I'll read them at home.

[Diamond Dog]

For the time being I am happily 2.0.

It ain't without its charms, Mr. Clark.

D.D.

[Rclark]

Consider me charmed then. Seriously, I never thought I could run these speakers without some supplementation, and I found the idea of running 2.0 almost distateful. Ultimately I will need to get those subs, because a lot of the music I listen to (and also to my personal taste at times) requires the big big punching power of a sub. the key will now be to make it work with these speakers, make sure it is of the same quality and make it blend.

 Since I'm doing subs, when I get my measuring rig, on the same day I'll go ahead and buy that eD subwoofer EQ and just learn how to play with it, try and tame the sub I have now and just learn with it.

 That said.. I've been reading more and more about user experiences with the types of caps I have in this mod, and apparently, despite being 100 hours or so (probably less) into it, I'm looking at 4-500, up to 600-1000 hours before these caps suddenly over a short period of time (according to many users), blossom into their sound. Which is exciting to me, because despite the rollercoaster, there are moments of sheer bliss.

 I put in one of my benchmark metal albums, Metallica "And Justice for All", something I've listened to since as a small child, and the presentation last night was the best I've EVER heard. These speakers have just the most effortless accuracy and precision, yet are so holographic and just such a large audio image presented, and so decadent, the sound is like eating chocolate cake.

 That said, unless anyone has any questions, I'm gonna let this thread just sit and marinate as the break in continues. Few weeks to a month before I post another report and my conclusions.

 Also, .. I think the increased bass performance is taking more out of my amp. I feel like the speakers now have more headroom to where the Two was perfect with the stock MMG, but now I could use more power. Come on Virtue 3!

[rw@cn]

TBI subs may be your answer. They are passive but TBI sells two different amps that work well. I've had these at home and they are now on my list of purchases.

[Rclark]

 Thanks for that. I'll check into them. PG is suggesting that the only solution I should seriously consider is Duke Lejeune's Swarm. It's what he uses.

 Each day has brought change to the sound. Vocals are knocking me out! And it seems the bass performance is actually getting stronger as well but I have no way to prove it at present. So regardless, I actually think I'm going to survive without subbbass for some time.

 Ok, it for now.

[sounddog]

I'm seriously considering buying a pair of used MG 1.6s (I currently have stock MG 12s) and getting them Gunned, but despite positive reports by those who have used PG's mods I am hesitant to do so without ever even hearing any Gunned Maggies (my alternative would probably be to buy new MG 1.7s). Anyone in Michigan or a nearby state have Gunned 1.6s or 12s that they'd be willing to let me hear? I'll happily donate a nice bottle of wine (or some brews if you prefer)! 

[jk@home]

Just make a road trip to Pennsylvania and listen to John's at Magnestands.

[wisnon]

I'm seriously considering buying a pair of used MG 1.6s (I currently have stock MG 12s) and getting them Gunned, but despite positive reports by those who have used PG's mods I am hesitant to do so without ever even hearing any Gunned Maggies (my alternative would probably be to buy new MG 1.7s). Anyone in Michigan or a nearby state have Gunned 1.6s or 12s that they'd be willing to let me hear? I'll happily donate a nice bottle of wine (or some brews if you prefer)! 

There is a pair of gunned 1.6s on the 'Gon for about $2100 plus shipping.

[Rclark]

Small update: the sound is very much settled I think and is absolutely pristine and gorgeous. I wouldn't trade them for anything (unless you wanna give me a big house and some 20.7's, that is). Just stunning, and I am preparing a proper review/conclusions.

Reason for update: I am being sent the GR N2X speaker to demo. I think it will fare well and I'm quite anxious to hear the planar tweeter. This will bring my in house, high quality speaker experience to five, two iterations each of MMG and Insignia monitor (stock, and majorly hot-rodded on both).
 

[Letitroll98]

What happened to the distributed sub (swarm) plan from the other thread?  It's where I think I'm headed with my Maggie's room and seemed like a great plan for your situation.  I think it may be the only way to get proper bass integrated with Planers.

[Rclark]

Not quite ready to do subs yet, and the first next purchase will be an Omnimic so I can begin really optimizing the system. I would like to do a swarm and the Epik Legends look nice. With a sub eq and the Omnimic in hand first I can safely try to integrate. I do love the sound of the planar dipole bass so it has also once again become a contender. I might just buy some plywood and a saw and try to make test baffles for my Brahma's, still dont know. Probably get the Epiks and call it a day, eventually run 4. 8 drivers would be pretty smooth I bet.

[josh358]

I think you'll find that a dipole woofer provides better performance and integration than even multiple subs. Not the SPL's, though, unless you use lots of woofers.

Keep in mind that you can swarm dipoles as well. In this case, you're interested in the depth axial mode.

[josh358]

I think you'll find that a dipole woofer provides better performance and integration than even multiple subs. Not the SPL's, though, unless you use lots of woofers.

Keep in mind that you can swarm dipoles as well. In this case, you're interested in the depth axial modes.

[ken]

I made the trip out to Johns house approx 5 years ago and heard both the "gunned" SMGA and 1.6's  John had not yet begun doing mods for the MMG's but I was extremely impressed with both the sonics and craftsmanship.
   His listening room is a very well treated loft in his house and Unless he changed amplification he was driving them with a Pass 250, I brought along my amps as well  the Tad 1000 monos and they also sounded great so any decent tube amp will easily drive them. 
   To think back I could have walked away that day with a pair of gunned SMGA's for $1200.00 kills me to this day but I just didn't have the cash, and the only reason I don't own a pair is because of the WAF.  It's not that they don't look great they were just not a good fit for our family room.
   I'm aware the mods are a little pricey but bear in mind you'll be getting a speaker that will compete with far more expensive models.  FWIW I actually prefered the sound of the SMGA's over the 1.6's but of course YMMV   He also told me the gunned SMGA's and MMG's are very similarly voiced but thinks the MMG's have a little more puch.
   If you do happen to make the trip over to his place make sure you bring some of your own cd's or albums as John's taste in music is heavily weighted towards the Indie sound and chances are good you've never heard many of the artists and groups in his collection.  Just my 2 cents

[berni]

I think you'll find that a dipole woofer provides better performance and integration than even multiple subs. Not the SPL's, though, unless you use lots of woofers.

Keep in mind that you can swarm dipoles as well. In this case, you're interested in the depth axial mode.

I don't understand why nobody even trys to implement this , it loks like everybody overhears when we talk about dipol subs.

[jk@home]

This guy looks like he kicked the whole hive 



Actually it's Monte Kay's system, and he stacked them, no swam.

http://www.mfk-projects.com/theatre_woofer.htm

But the point that he used 24-15" drivers would tell me that swamed would take up a lot of real estate.

I've read that for a dipole sub to have the same output as a sealed , one needs two to four times more drivers.

[josh358]

I don't understand why nobody even trys to implement this , it loks like everybody overhears when we talk about dipol subs.

I'm thinking it's because they aren't usually available off the shelf. It isn't a very hard project, but most people don't seem to have the time or inclination for that level of DIY.

[josh358]

This guy looks like he kicked the whole hive 



Actually it's Monte Kay's system, and he stacked them, no swam.

http://www.mfk-projects.com/theatre_woofer.htm

But the point that he used 24-15" drivers would tell me that swamed would take up a lot of real estate.

I've read that for a dipole sub to have the same output as a sealed , one needs two to four times more drivers.

Wow! No half measures there.

I wouldn't be surprised if the figure is reasonable, you can't really put a fixed number on it because it depends on baffle size but Linkwitz has some measurements on his site of his H-frame dipoles and you can see that they're very demanding both of driver and amp.

One possibility, use a sealed woofer below the lowest room mode. Dipoles don't have an advantage there (I gather that there's an obscure bass lift as an omni gets down to the zero or DC mode but it seems that most rooms aren't tight enough for it to be a problem). So the sealed sub can do the heavy lifting.