[jimdgoulding]

Whether you agree with the Macro meister or not, dude can write, huh, and is refreshingly cerebral.  The coaches developed an offense for T-bone and not to be outdone, the Denver defense and coaching stepped up and should be given a load of recognition.  They are on the shows I watch, if you listen closely, but, Tebow is easier to rant about, pro or con, and almost completely dominates discussions.  You know, it's entertainment.

Enjoyed the read, Macro, and your perspective, tremendously.

[jackman]

I'd love to hear what all of the Tebow HATERS would say if Denver was 1-5 over the last 6 games.  They would be the same ones blaming him for the losses.  That's how it goes with QB's.  When they win games, they tend to get too much credit and when they lose, they tend to get too much blame.

Tebow is never going to be Tom Brady or John Elway.  He can't throw with accuracy and often doesn't look "pretty" when he runs the offense.  I've watched most of his games and believe he deserves much of the credit for Denver's wins.  That last drive in the Jets game was all Tebow.  He carried the Broncos 95 yards, into the enzone for the win.  It was't a "lucky" hail-Mary pass or fluke.  He did it by sheer force of will and it was brilliant.  The haters blamed the Jets' defense but I don't.  They were just Tebowed! 

Watching this guy manufacture game winning drives has been more fun than anyone (other than the Tebow HATERS) could have ever expected from Denver.  The Vikings DARED him to beat them with his arm in the second half of that game and Tebow did not disappoint.  I believe he was 10-15 passing with NO turnovers.  Not bad for a guy who can't throw the ball. 

He may not be the best passer in the game and may be one of the worst, but he can get you tough yards when you need them, has committed almost no turnovers, and has an uncanny knack for winning football games.  Tebow makes up for his lack of passing skill with his power running ability.  I don't think anyone expected him to run this well in the NFL.  Kyle Orton would not have won the games Tebow has won this year, although he would have undoubtedly put up better numbers in his losing efforts.  The reason is simple, Orton is a loser and Tebow is a winner. 

Like it or not, admit it or not (and I don't expect the Tebow haters to admit it) but this guy is a winner.  He may not be able to continue this streak and will most likely lose to the Pats, but Tebow is doing things none of the HATERS expected him to do...win football games.  He's not putting up Brady or Rogers numbers and I don't think anyone will ever mention him in the same breath as these other guys but he is winning games all of the "experts" expected him to lose.  At the moment, is there a QB in the game with a better track record this season on late drives with the game on the line? 

The so-called "experts" are squirming because no one gave this guy a chance.  I disagree that the Denver coaching staff deserves most of the credit.  I blame them for not playing this guy sooner.  They would have won the San Diego game if they put Tebow in earlier.  In the end, the HATERS will have the last word because there is no way the Denver team is good enough to go far in the playoffs and only a Superbowl win will shut these guys up.  Denver will not win the Superbowl but Tebow has given football fans in Denver and alround the league some excitement and maybe some inspiration as a result of his gritty, hard-nosed play.  I'd take this guy in a 3rd and 1 situation over pretty much any QB in the game.  He's a tough 250lb monster (listed at 239 but he's reportedly bigger) with a nose for the hole and a better football player than I thought he would  be when he was drafted. 

I suspect many of the "experts" and haters like Keshon Johnson would feel differently about Tebow if he was a former crack-baby from the ghetto with a criminal record instead of an outspoken, clean living, "holy roller".  These guys hate him for his outspoken views and I love seeing them eat crow every week when the Broncos win, often because of Tebow's late game heriocs.  Although I'm a lifelong Bears' fan, I'll be pulling for Denver this week.  The Bears have disgusted me and I'd take Tebow over Haney any day. 

Like it or not, this guy is a young QB getting his first opportunity to play for a team no one expected to win big games.  They've won more games in the current streak than they won all of last year (5 wins so far versus 4 all of last year!).  His winning streak will eventually end and Denver may even lose a game because of a bad decision Tebow makes.  He's a young QB and these things happen.  The HATERS can all come out and say "I told you so", but it hasn't happened yet.  Tebow may be the strongest guy to ever play the QB position (overall physical strengty) but his biggest strength during this run has been his leadership.  He has the Broncos believing they can win games and playing inspired football on both sides of the ball.  As an NFL fan who has NEVER rooted for the Broncos, I'm enjoying the run while it lasts.

Cheers,

J

[Randy]

A player like Tebow will win some games in the clutch, but as far as being a consistent winner in the NFL, it won't happen. He and the Broncos have benefited from playing a string of weak teams that were very beatable, especially by a team like the Broncos who have a good defense that can keep most games close despite the woeful offense. Up next they get the Bears who don't have a NFL quality qb. And qbs like Tebow who like to run don't usually last too long. Somebody will lay him out one of these days.

[jackman]

A player like Tebow will win some games in the clutch, but as far as being a consistent winner in the NFL, it won't happen. He and the Broncos have benefited from playing a string of weak teams that were very beatable, especially by a team like the Broncos who have a good defense that can keep most games close despite the woeful offense. Up next they get the Bears who don't have a NFL quality qb. And qbs like Tebow who like to run don't usually last too long. Somebody will lay him out one of these days.

How do you know this?  He's technically in his first year and has already had excellent success against the teams  he has faced on the schedule.  The same types of teams the previous QB, Orton, and the same Denver defense was losing to.  Also, this Bronco team sucked last year with a very similar defense.  Tebow hasn't committed turnovers and hasn't put his team in bad field position.  This has played a major role in their success and has led them to some exciting late game victories. 

As far as "QB's like Tebow", I don't think there has ever been a QB as strong as Tebow and he has given lots of teams chances to "lay him out".  None have succeeded.  All QB's get hurt eventually, it's the nature of the game.  This guy isn't skinny little Michael Vick, he's 250lbs and built like a tank with more than decent speed.  He's like a fullback playing QB.  Not saying he's going to re-write the record books but it would be interesting to see a team build an offense around a run oriented QB.  His passing is improving and I think he can win without being a great passer, if he continues to improve his accuracy.  His run skills are so exceptional, he might be able to succeed by being just a "good" passer.  Defenses have to at least respect his ability to throw the ball, and he managed to do that last week in MN. 

I'm not ready to annoint him the next Johnny Unitas or Dan Marino, and I don't think anyone is.  If he continues to improve as a passer, continues to run the ball effectively, and has decent players around him, I think Tebow can have success in this league.  He is an excellent leader and the Bronco team has rallied around him (everyone except guys like Elway who don't believe in his ability).  The HATERS are so quick to give all of the credit to the defense and coaching staff.  Isn't this the same defense and coaching staff that was losing all of the games last year and this year with Orton at the helm?   Tebow is a winner!

I hope the Bears get TEBOW-ED this Sunday.  Screw em!  

[macrojack]

Where to start?

First off, the haters are all in your head. This conversation has been intelligent, polite, objective and respectful. Your contribution, on the other hand, is divisive and confrontational.

Last year the Broncos had completely different coaching staff and a defense that played without Von Miller or Elvis Dumervil.

Tebow has merit. Tebow is still unproven. Tebow is human.

I say that because there is a bit of Sara Palin in this whole phantasmagorical elegy to Tebow. He's just a guy. Not a genius, not a savior, and not a very good quarterback. Media and mass mind have conspired to conflagrate a spark of hope into a world of promise.

I hope you are right. I've been a Broncos fan for many years and I long for the days when we had something to brag about. I want that now again, but reality doesn't provide me with the level of optimism that you get from uninformed assumption. Let's talk next week.

The Bears defense may well out score Denver's offense on Sunday. Once again it may be Denver's D that makes the difference. With Forte gone, Hanie's apt to toss 5 or 6 interceptions.

[bprice2]

Could it be that the Tebow LOVERS love so much, because of the man's over the top display of his religion when he gets in front of a camera? 

[jackman]

However, the Broncs gave up 28 pts./game during the first 5 and only 19.9 during Tebow's triumphal reign.
These facts indicate pretty clearly that the difference is on defense. And let's not forget the shitstorm of tebowmania that Orton had to try to play through.

That fact and the fans' screaming for Tebow in this rebuilding year, probably are the reasons why Tebow is playing. The defense is the main reason he's winning.

Is this what passes for polite, objective and respectful?  Guys like you give this guy no credit for the success he has helped Denvery achieve.  He is winning with the same defense that was losing with Orton. 

Yes, he is unproven but the latest run should count for something.  He is human.  Thanks for pointing that out. 

As I stated, I'm not ready to put a crown on this guy's head but I think some of the criticism has more to do with things unrelated to football.  I'm enjoying this kid prove all of the critics and HATERS wrong.  He was a winner in college and this run has been enjoyable to watch.  Sorry if that's considered divisive or confrontational in your world.   Just a fan...

J

[jackman]

Could it be that the Tebow LOVERS love so much, because of the man's over the top display of his religion when he gets in front of a camera? 

Hey, I can care less what this guy does outside of football.  My comments were strictly limited to his performance and success on the field.  I'm not a holy roller in any way and don't like it any more than most people when players throw their religious beliefs in everyone's face during interviews.  The same goes for people who refer to themselves in the third person or hip-hopper types who say "know what I'm sayin'" after every three words.  Can't stand it! 

This guy has been attacked ferociously since he entered the league.  Even Macro invokes the name "Sara Palin" in his post about Tebow.  Was that supposted to be a compliment? 

I suspect some of the criticism has more to do with Tebow's beliefs than his success on the field.  It's fun watching this guy succeed every week and more fun watching the critics eat their words.

Macro - for you to hold up New England as the "real" measuring stick is unfair.  I don't think Denver could beat New England with their current team with John Elway in his prime at QB, let alone a first year QB.  This team could win 10 games this year.  That would be a pretty impressive feat for a team led by a QB most experts most experts gave zero chance to win a single game.  Just sayin...

[bprice2]

Hey, I can care less what this guy does outside of football.  I'm not a holy roller in any way and don't like it any more than most people when players throw their beliefs in everyone's face during interviews.  The same goes for people who refer to themselves in the third person or hip-hoppers who say "know what I'm sayin'" after every three words.  Can't stand it! 

This guy has been attacked ferociously since he entered the league.  Even Macro invokes the name "Sara Palin" in his post about Tebow.  Was that supposted to be a compliment?

It's your use of the word "HATERS". It's one of those political dog-whistle words that the religious right likes to use.

[ngomez745]

Mcgahee down the middle, Tebow the option play, don't make the first down? That's OK...Punt! The Broncos play this way until the 4th quarter. Field position is the key here.  Mcgahee will eventually break through with a big run down the middle and when this happens, it changes the dynamics of the Denver offense. Now the play calling gets creative and the field opens up. And if its a close game the opposing team starts to second guess themselves.

[jackman]

It's your use of the word "HATERS". It's one of those political dog-whistle words that the religious right likes to use.

What?  My use of the word is like "player-hater" kind of way.  There are people who disliked this guy and gave him no chance before he ever took a snap.  I'm not saying they literally hate him, it's just an expression.  Also, I don't think the religious right uses this term any more than the liberal left.  Either way, I could care less about either group.  I care more about football. 

[tull skull]

Could it be that the Tebow LOVERS love so much, because of the man's over the top display of his religion when he gets in front of a camera? 

Of course that could be true. Uh, any chance the inverse itself might also be true?

"over the top" is a subjective term, by the way, describing  more regarding the characterization of your interpretation than his actual "display".

To your credit let me say I have not seen any of these "displays" so after witnessing them, my interpretation might be exactly the same as yours.

Guess you thought up the term "religious right" all by yourself now didn'tcha?

[macrojack]

Jackman - You have twice stated that Tebow is winning with the same defense that Orton lost with last year.
Von Miller is a linebacker for the Broncos this year. He his being talked about for Defensive Rookie of the Year. Implicit in that are two facts that contradict your assertion. Firstly, as a rookie, he wasn't playing last year and secondly, as a DROY candidate, he must be having an enormous impact. Secondly, there is a new defensive coordinator this year.
Also, please note that Elvis Dumervil led the league in sacks in 2009 and missed the entire 2010 season. He took some time getting back in his groove this year but is now, once again, harassing opposing QBs.
Additionally, I would suggest that the defense had no (that's zero) time to learn a new system due to the lockout. They started out average and have gotten steadily better as the season progressed.
I'm in Colorado and have watched the Broncos much more closely than most of you before Tebowmania took hold. It's all fun and exciting and I sincerely hope we can fluke our way or defense our way deep into the playoffs. However, I will be disappointed and not surprised if that fails to materialize. After all, the Broncos are a work in progress. Just look at the Redskins for an idea of what we have to overcome. And there is always the possibility that Elway will turn out to be the second coming of Matt Millen, god forbid.

[jackman]

Jackman - You have twice stated that Tebow is winning with the same defense that Orton lost with last year.
Von Miller is a linebacker for the Broncos this year. He his being talked about for Defensive Rookie of the Year. Implicit in that are two facts that contradict your assertion. Firstly, as a rookie, he wasn't playing last year and secondly, as a DROY candidate, he must be having an enormous impact. Secondly, there is a new defensive coordinator this year.
Also, please note that Elvis Dumervil led the league in sacks in 2009 and missed the entire 2010 season. He took some time getting back in his groove this year but is now, once again, harassing opposing QBs.
Additionally, I would suggest that the defense had no (that's zero) time to learn a new system due to the lockout. They started out average and have gotten steadily better as the season progressed.
I'm in Colorado and have watched the Broncos much more closely than most of you before Tebowmania took hold. It's all fun and exciting and I sincerely hope we can fluke our way or defense our way deep into the playoffs. However, I will be disappointed and not surprised if that fails to materialize. After all, the Broncos are a work in progress. Just look at the Redskins for an idea of what we have to overcome. And there is always the possibility that Elway will turn out to be the second coming of Matt Millen, god forbid.

Macro, so the defense finally figured out how to play the exact second Tebow took the helm?  If you say so.  They didn't look too good early in the season but sure figured it out when they got a new QB.

The defense had nothing to do with that 95 yard drive to beat the Jets...

Either way, I didn't like that horse-tooth jackass Elway when he was a player and I don't like him now.  He might turn out to be worse than Matt Millen. 

For the record, I hated Tebow in college and laughed when Denver drafted him so highly.  After hearing some of the very viscious criticism Tebow received on sports radio here in Chicago and by certain people on ESPN - AFTER HIS FIRST GAME -  I could not help but root for him.  It has nothing to do with religion or politics, I felt bad for this young guy, to be slammed so hard by so many "experts" so early in his NFL career.  Even if the wheels come off the Tebow train this week, it was a fun little run. This guy has earned my respect with his hard-nose style of play and poise he has demonstrated on game winning drives. 

If you go to the game, make sure to bring Elway a couple carrots, a bucket of oats and some sugar cubes.  The video of him eating with those big horse teeth will be a youtube sensation!

Cheers,

J

[macrojack]

SI.com had a photo of Jim Harbaugh that they posted at the heading of every thread about the 49ers this year. In the photo, Jim has his head held high with an enormous toothy grin. He looked like Mr. Ed and most comments played rather derisively with that theme. In fact, those guys being incisive and ruthless, Jim became the butt of endless jokes and derision.
So, your ex QB is just as stupid looking as my ex QB.

What I have tried repeatedly to say about Denver's defense is that they have become progressively better all year. Not suddenly -- PROGRESSIVELY.

Another point to be made concerns Denver's punter, Britton Colquitt. There is an article in my local paper today about how far he has come as a defensive weapon. He is currently ranked third in the league in net yardage (41.3) and fourth in placing kicks inside the 20 (23).

Of course, all of that might change quickly if he is dumb enough to kick to Hester.

[jackman]

Hester might be the Bears' only chance!  They should kick the ball out of bounds on every kickoff and punt, and take their chances stopping Mr. Haney and company.  Even if the Bears start at midfield, they won't go anywhere near the endzone.  This offense it totally inept.  A disgrace to any fan of the game. 

Touche on the QB remark!  Harbaugh has some serious choppers.  Elway is still tops in my book but agree with you on the SI picture! For the record, I never liked him either.  He was not a popular QB in Chicago but his success at Stanford and 49'ers has been impressive.  I'd take him over that worthless bag of goo, Lovie Smith and his "genius" offensive coordinator, Mike Martz.  Those guys need to go away.

If the Broncos lose the game because of poor defense, and Tebow has a good game, I'm sure everyone will be understanding and not blame him for the loss.  Right...

Despite my earlier comments, I'll be rooting for the Bears this Sunday.  And after the game, I will hate myself for doing so.  Being a Bears' fan is not for the faint of heart. 

Cheers,

[macrojack]

Just think of them as the football Cubs and you'll feel much more forgiving.

[Mikeinsacramento]

"Tebow gains an average of 2.61 yards every time he touches the ball. Maybe that doesn’t sound like much, but only four quarterbacks have done better this season. In order, they are Rodgers, Drew Brees, Brady and injured Matt Schaub. Tebow is No. 5."

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/T...ers-lie-120111

Link doesn't work on my end.  Here's the text.

Mark Kriegel
 
Updated Dec 3, 2011 1:24 PM ET
     
It’s been almost eight weeks since my categorical endorsement of Tim Tebow as Denver’s starting quarterback. The column was adequately argued. At 1-4, the Broncos weren’t going to get any worse.

But my urgings were based mostly on entertainment value. It would be a lot more fun watching Denver flame out with Tebow than with Kyle Orton.

Only now, with the Broncos having a good chance to win their fifth straight, and go 6-1 with Tebow as a starter, have I seen the error of my ways. Actually, it’s not just my error. The entire football establishment is culpable. To dismiss Tebow merely on the basis of an amateurish throwing motion is easy. It’s intuitive. But it’s also wrong.

By now, you know all about Tebow’s flaws. Still, the biggest one might be the methods that have been used to evaluate him. The standard barometers — starting with quarterback rating — just don’t seem to work.

It’s not that Tebow is better than his numbers suggest. Rather, the numbers don’t measure what he does well — and, no, I’m not referring to his “intangibles,” either.

First, for all of his shortcomings as a passer, Tebow doesn’t throw many interceptions (only one this season). Second, conventional passer ratings don’t take into account his considerable ability as a runner. Tebow isn’t like any of his predecessors. He isn’t a “scrambler.” He’s a downhill runner — easily as big as most fullbacks — who runs from the pocket, typically charging into an already spread-out field.

How do you measure that? Being a mere hyperbolist, I called someone who understands these metrics. Sean Lahman is a reporter specializing in databases, and author of The Pro Football Historical Abstract. In his attempt to make Bill James-ian sense of the NFL, Lahman came up with a theory of “Adjusted Yards.” It’s a particularly useful tool when applied to quarterbacks, as it reflects fumbles, sacks, interceptions and rushing yards in addition to the usual passing numbers.

“Over 16 games,” said Lahman, “Tebow projects to 19 touchdowns, three interceptions, 2,061 yards passing and 1,112 yards rushing with five rushing touchdowns.”

That doesn’t make him Johnny Unitas. But it would make him an incredibly efficient quarterback.

“There has never been anything comparable to that,” said Lahman.

The closest thing would be Michael Vick in 2002 (2,900 passing yards, 750 rushing, 16 TDs, eight INTs), or Steve McNair in 1997 (2,665 passing yards, 674 rushing, 14 TDs, 13 INTs). “But folks don’t look at the cost of the interceptions,” Lahman said. “For all Tebow’s limitations as a passer . . . he doesn’t need to throw for 4,000 yards if he’s avoiding turnovers and producing significant yards on the ground.”

In other words, he doesn’t have to be Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers. It might just be enough to be Tim Tebow.

Remember, there are plenty of quarterbacks — from mediocre ones like Mark Sanchez to gifted specimens like Philip Rivers — who’ve already ruined their teams’ seasons with interceptions. And there are quarterbacks — Earl Morrall and Trent Dilfer come to mind — who’ve won Super Bowls with a lot less talent than Tebow.


In Tebow’s case, the conventional numbers lie. His quarterback rating of 80.5 would rank him 21st in the league. By Lahman’s measure of "Adjusted Yards," however, he’s no worse than ninth.

Still, because the nine games in which Tebow has appeared (six as a starter, three in relief) are an admittedly small sample, Lahman came up with a better way to gauge Tebow’s effectiveness. It’s a spread sheet that ranks quarterbacks by "Adjusted Yards per Touch" (“a touch” being defined as pass and rushing attempts plus sacks).

By that measure, Tebow gains an average of 2.61 yards every time he touches the ball. Maybe that doesn’t sound like much, but only four quarterbacks have done better this season. In order, they are Rodgers, Drew Brees, Brady and injured Matt Schaub. Tebow is No. 5.

If that’s pretty damn good, don’t be so surprised. It’s only what you should expect from a quarterback who’s 5-1 as a starter.

Lahman’s numbers don’t lie. They’re more complete than the quarterback ratings. They’re not intuitively flawed like the eyeball test. (“You see him? I threw better than Tebow in junior high.”) And they don’t depend on my specialties, to wit: hyperbole and sentiment.

After six starts, it’s not yet clear what Tebow represents: an anomaly or, perhaps, a new figure in the evolution of sports’ most interesting position. Only a single quality defies quantification. Call it an intangible if you must. But Denver's starting quarterback is certain to entertain.

[jimdgoulding]

Jackman, for the record, I am a Tebow fan.  Hope the Broncos keep winning and overtake Oakland.

[JerryM]

Link doesn't work on my end.  Here's the text.

Here is a working link. 

Have fun,

Jerry