[Jaytor]

From a layman reading this it sounds like Steve McCormack did a decent job at controlling the negative effects of negative feedback.  Do you also prefer the sound of no negative feedback?

I don't have any experience comparing the exact same amp topology with and without feedback, so it's a bit hard to associate a specific sound signature with no negative feedback. However, as Tyson and I indicated, feedback can tend to quash the favorable second and third harmonics which can expose the unfavorable higher-order harmonics.

Second and third harmonics are generally considered a plus by many (most?) audiophiles since it adds depth and spaciousness to the sound stage, and does a good job masking higher order harmonics.

I can say that I have generally preferred the zero and very low feedback amplifiers I have had in my system. However, as Ralph Karsten from Atma-Sphere points out, if the gain-bandwidth product is high enough such that it's possible to use negative feedback in excess of 30db or so, it is possible to reduce the higher order harmonics enough so that they are not audible even without the masking effect of the low-order harmonics.

I haven't had an opportunity to listen to Ralph's class D amps for an extended period, but the brief listen at one of the audio shows was promising.

I am also pretty happy with my Purifi class D amps, but I am using a tube input buffer which introduces a fair amount of low order harmonic content, providing the desirable masking effect. But I don't think these monoblocks are quite as good as my zero-feedback 300B SET amps, or the Pass XA60.8 amps I previously had in my system.

EDIT: And yes, I think Steve McCormick does a nice job with his amps. He doesn't use excessive feedback in the pursuit of vanishingly low distortion specs. I don't have a ton of experience with his amps, but I've heard them a few times at audio shows and the sound was very pleasing.

[BrandonB]

I don't have any experience comparing the exact same amp topology with and without feedback, so it's a bit hard to associate a specific sound signature with no negative feedback. However, as Tyson and I indicated, feedback can tend to quash the favorable second and third harmonics which can expose the unfavorable higher-order harmonics.

Second and third harmonics are generally considered a plus by many (most?) audiophiles since it adds depth and spaciousness to the sound stage, and does a good job masking higher order harmonics.

I can say that I have generally preferred the zero and very low feedback amplifiers I have had in my system. However, as Ralph Karsten from Atma-Sphere points out, if the gain-bandwidth product is high enough such that it's possible to use negative feedback in excess of 30db or so, it is possible to reduce the higher order harmonics enough so that they are not audible even without the masking effect of the low-order harmonics.

I haven't had an opportunity to listen to Ralph's class D amps for an extended period, but the brief listen at one of the audio shows was promising.

I am also pretty happy with my Purifi class D amps, but I am using a tube input buffer which introduces a fair amount of low order harmonic content, providing the desirable masking effect. But I don't think these monoblocks are quite as good as my zero-feedback 300B SET amps, or the Pass XA60.8 amps I previously had in my system.

EDIT: And yes, I think Steve McCormick does a nice job with his amps. He doesn't use excessive feedback in the pursuit of vanishingly low distortion specs. I don't have a ton of experience with his amps, but I've heard them a few times at audio shows and the sound was very pleasing.

Does negative feedback apply to everything preamps, DAC's etc.  I have been looking at some preamps and they talk about no negative feedback.  If so does it have a compounding affect?

[Jaytor]

Does negative feedback apply to everything preamps, DAC's etc.  I have been looking at some preamps and they talk about no negative feedback.  If so does it have a compounding affect?

Negative feedback can be used with any amplifier, be it a DAC buffer, phono stage, line stage, or power amplifier.

Most DACs have an output buffer of some form. There are some exceptions (e.g. I understand that the Denafrips DACs do not have an output buffer and as a result have somewhat higher output impedance compared to many other DACs). If the output buffer uses opamps, it will definitely use feedback since opamps have a very high gain-bandwidth product  but very limited open-loop bandwidth. But it is certainly possible to build a discrete buffer (either tube or SS) that has no or very low negative feedback.

I've seen many more tube circuits with no negative feedback, while most solid-state circuits use some amount of feedback.

I wouldn't get too hung up on whether a circuit uses feedback or not. A small amount of feedback can provide lower noise, lower output impedance, and more consistent performance. As I'm sure you've heard countless times, the best strategy is to listen to the product in your system to decide whether it's a good fit for you.

If you can find out the harmonic distortion spectrum (i.e. a graph showing the distortion profile), I think the best sound comes from circuits where each increasing harmonic has lower peaks (e.g. 2nd is higher than 3rd is higher then 4th etc.), but with the highest peak at least 60db down from the fundamental (that's equivalent to 0.1% distortion). Ideally, it should be closer to 80db down (0.01%), but that's pretty challenging while maintaining a monotonically decreasing harmonic spectrum.

[Tyson]

Jaytor's experience matches my own.

[jmimac351]

jmimac351,
I would love to hear your opinion on the differences between the Schiit Bitfrost 2/64 and the Yaggy GS2. I was thinking of trading up from my Bitfrost 2/64 to the GS2, but just dont know how much of a change it would be.

I listened to a podcast once where Jason Stodderd said that he felt the Bitfrost 2/64 now has much of the technology/sound that made the Yaggy special. I have been very happy with the Bitfrost 2/64 in my system. But the GS2 version has me thinking that it might be a more cost effective way to step up and provide an upgrade path in the future.

I would be pairing it with the Tyr's and some other tube amps and the GR Brutes for good old rock n roll. So something that helps to deal with less than perfect recording would be an upgrade for me but hopefully still maintaining the sound stage and attack I currently have.

I just shipped the Yggdrasil back yesterday.  As mentioned, it had a mechanical transformer hum that I could hear at my listening position, 12' away.  It was loud enough that my wife asked "What is that humming noise?"

The Yggy sounded nice... but so did this other stuff.  I just mentioned to someone elsewhere that I would definitely just opt for the Bifrost 2/64 unit.  It was dead quiet and sounded great.  It had the smoothness but also detail that people have been describing in the Yggdrasil LIM unit.  This is actually the second time I've owned the Bifrost 2/64.  The first was when I had my Magnepan 3.7i speakers.  The speakers were the limiting factor in really being able to appreciate the DAC, and I sold it too quickly.

~Some sort of RME DAC will be staying, whether it's the current one or even the ADI-2/4 Pro SE, which uses the same chip as my Ayre QB-9 Twenty. The features / sound of the RME are incredible, IMO.  It's a tremendous product.

~The Ayre QB-9 Twenty will be staying, as it sounds wonderful and is my frame of reference for "right".

~The Modius with AKM4493 will be staying... I paid for it with quarters I found in the couch, and it sounds excellent.  I think it is the DAC that Mike Moffat mentioned as a D/S DAC that "sounded waaaaaaaay too good".  The Modi Multibit will be staying for similar reasons.  I think I bought it with nickels I found in the cupholder of my truck.    There is a reason why Jason Stoddard said he still uses one.

This time around, I will not be quick to sell the Bifrost 2/64.  I bought it right and I think this stuff is fun.  Besides... Schiit is working on an update for Gungnir that will be D/S.  If they come out with some new card for BF 2/64, maybe I'll play with it.  I think the Bifrost 2/64 is the best option for me to have one of their DACs that truly does sound great, can be upgraded (when they do it), costs half (or less) of the Yggy, and doesn't have the mechanical hum issues.  (Search for that Yggy hum issue, it can be easily fixed, but it's still a thing).

I had similar thoughts as you about buying into the Yggy ecosystem / upgrade path.  And then I heard transformer hum, experienced other DACs that sound as good (or better) with far more features never contemplated (and will never be done) by Schiit.  And then, you see the pricing for Upgrade cards on Schiit website.  $550 for the LIM boards and $850 for the MIB.  After what I've experienced with these DACs and as it relates to your question, the Bifrost 2/64, I would absolutely keep the 2/64.

I'll put it to you this way, when I dropped off the Yggdrasil at FedEx yesterday, it was with a sense of relief that "I experienced that and know what that is, and I know what I already have is at least as good, and in very important ways, SUPERIOR".

Hopefully this helps you get past that itch.  I know how it is when you're wondering about "that other thing..."

[corndog71]

My Yggy is dead quiet.  Perhaps you got a bad one.  A couple years ago I ordered a Freya S.  In the apartment I was living in at the time it came with a significant increase in noise.  Others said theirs were dead quiet so I figured I just got a bad unit.  I tried to get it either repaired or replaced but Schiit just gave me the refund.  Oh well.  My point is Schiit happens.  But at least they take care of their customers.

[BrandonB]

My Yggy is dead quiet.  Perhaps you got a bad one.  A couple years ago I ordered a Freya S.  In the apartment I was living in at the time it came with a significant increase in noise.  Others said theirs were dead quiet so I figured I just got a bad unit.  I tried to get it either repaired or replaced but Schiit just gave me the refund.  Oh well.  My point is Schiit happens.  But at least they take care of their customers.

They gave your money back and said flush it down the toilet.

[BrandonB]

So, my current, preferred setup is this:

• Ayre QB-9 Twenty DAC
• Ayre KX-5 Twenty Preamp
• Ayre VX-5 Twenty Amp

I ABSOLUTELY LOVE IT.  The retail pricing on this stuff is up there... but I buy stuff "used and right". Remember, what something actually costs you is the difference between what you buy it for and what you sell it for.  This financial strategy is fully "Audiophile Approved".  (Plus, it's true - notwithstanding the opportunity costs of earning on the money).  But this stuff adds enjoying to my life every day... put a number on that.

In fact, I've picked up some other Ayre gear that is "secret stuff"... "secret, really good stuff that doesn't cost a fortune". 

1) AX-7e Integrated.  It can be an integrated, but also has a "Pass Thru" function, so it can "just be an amp".  Plus, with the way it's designed, the volume "wakes up" to make an adjustment, then "goes back to sleep".  And, any inputs not being used are "put to sleep".  So, it's SUPER quiet... as is all Ayre gear.  $1,250 used.  60w/Ch 8ohms / 120wCh 4ohms.  And... it "punches above its weight".

2) K5xe MP preamp.  This is less than half price (used) of my KX-5 Twenty preamp.  But is REALLY good.  It is reference quality... ~$2100 used. This is a "classic" piece.

Have you listened to the 5xe MP? How close does it sound compared to your preamp?  I was noticing it had HT Bypass.  Does yours have HT Bypass also?

[jmimac351]

My Yggy is dead quiet.  Perhaps you got a bad one.  A couple years ago I ordered a Freya S.  In the apartment I was living in at the time it came with a significant increase in noise.  Others said theirs were dead quiet so I figured I just got a bad unit.  I tried to get it either repaired or replaced but Schiit just gave me the refund.  Oh well.  My point is Schiit happens.  But at least they take care of their customers.

Agreed. They are making it right. 

[jmimac351]

Have you listened to the 5xe MP? How close does it sound compared to your preamp?  I was noticing it had HT Bypass.  Does yours have HT Bypass also?

I have not put the K5xe MP into "the Big Rig" yet, so I really can't answer that.  I do already know it is excellent as a friend owns one and I've heard it with a number of different amplifiers and speakers in his dedicated, treated room.  I traded a Michel Cryo SE turntable for it... didn't need it but figured the preamp would be easier to sell, if I wanted to.  Plus, like I said, I knew it was really good.

Here is a video Ayre did for the K5xe MP preamp.  Many aren't aware, but Ariel Brown became "The Guy" doing their designs for many years prior to Charlie Hansen's passing.  He has a very large brain.  They are doing a sort of "look back" and going thru each of their products and talking about them.  Past up thru current.  I'm looking forward to when they get to the KX-5 Twenty and VX-5 Twenty.  If you watch the video, they mention a really cool feature of the K5xe MP... when making a volume change... the volume switching "Wakes Up", makes the change, then "Goes to sleep".  The preamp turns off things that don't need to be on for what it's doing.  Ayre is fanatical about noise... and stuff like that is part of it.  I think most all of their products have built-in power conditioning. 

https://youtu.be/8fnpSd738bU?si=B07V96EfkkwOX1RV

My KX-5 Twenty does have Processor Pass Thru.  Each of the inputs can be turned "ON" and "Off", and labeled.  Also, the overall gain for the preamp can be adjusted in 2 ways.  One is thru the menu option, via a setting.  I think it goes up to +6dB.  The other is via jumpers that you can place into the board.  I have the jumpers and can do either.  So, if using an input that doesn't quite have the gain / output you want, you can adjust for that. 

If you look at the volume control of the KX-5 Twenty... you know you're looking at something pretty special.  There are independent parts on a "pinwheel".  They call it "Variable-Gain Transconductance".  Stereophile sez: "Instead of adjusting volume in the traditional manner—with a potentiometer that discards varying amounts of the product's signal gain—each phase of each stereo channel of the VGT contains 46 discrete resistors that, selected with a rotary switch, create 46 distinct variations on the preamp's voltage-gain stage, for a range of 46 volume levels." When making a volume change, it's like the proper resistor is being "soldered in".  It make a unique noise as it actuates.  And every time I hear it, it makes me smile.  Another thing I really like about it is that it has 2 pairs of Balanced outputs.

This thing is pretty pricey.  I bought it used and fortunately only had to buy it once.  I'm really glad I did.  I've tried running the RME direct to my amp and I think I like it better thru the preamp.  If it's adding distortion...well then it's the distortion profile that I like - so be it.  I like owning nice things made with care.

However... even with how much I like this stuff and thinks it's cool and like owning it, and ramble on... based on what I have experienced and think I now know... if I were starting from scratch and looking to create something that could rival just about anything, for not a ton of money, I would do this, to reiterate:

1) Buy a used RME ADI-2 DAC FS.  I bought mine for $850.  You'll have a DAC, preamp, and 7 band PEQ.  Many have not considered that sort of thing / brand.  It's a "Studio Gear Brand".  Up until several months ago I hadn't even heard of it, until a buddy raved about it and talked about replacing megabuck gear with it.  Some will say "But, it's digital".  Yes... USB / Coax / Optical input to the DAC and it does DSP in the Digital Domain, then analog output via a pair of Balanced and RCA outputs.  And the way they do the analog output is totally unique because it runs the DAC chip at its ideal dynamic range the entire time - "Auto Reference Volume".  The output has a "presence" that is unique.  You can run direct to your amp.  And here's the thing... there is a very good chance that the music you, me, and anyone complaining about "it's digital" are listening to was recorded, mixed, and mastered with RME gear in the studio.  So...it is what it is.

They have a user forum where the lead designer / guy who writes the 120 page HYPER DETAILED manuals engage with users, actively.  They are very serious about their product and what they are doing.  They have 3 models aimed at Home hifi.  The top one has a phono preamp.  All of the units will make you a ham sandwich, if you want.

2) Buy a used amp with low overall feedback.  (My preference) The new Schiit Aegir 2 (if it doesn't hum) or that Ayre AX-7e was a "Stereophile Class A" component (maybe they bought an ad) and can be had for ~$1,100.  It's a sleeper product.  It also has processor pass thru.  If you already have a DAC, you can just use that.  The Aegir 2 is supposed to launch next week.

A fella could have all electronics done for ~$2k, and it could very well rival just about any setup out there. I have this exact gear in the house and just haven't fooled with swapping it in to give myself a rash about whether I should be selling a bunch of expensive stuff...

"Variable Gain Transconductance" Volume Control

[BrandonB]

I have not put the K5xe MP into "the Big Rig" yet, so I really can't answer that.  I do already know it is excellent as a friend owns one and I've heard it with a number of different amplifiers and speakers in his dedicated, treated room.  I traded a Michel Cryo SE turntable for it... didn't need it but figured the preamp would be easier to sell, if I wanted to.  Plus, like I said, I knew it was really good.

Here is a video Ayre did for the K5xe MP preamp.  Many aren't aware, but Ariel Brown became "The Guy" doing their designs for many years prior to Charlie Hansen's passing.  He has a very large brain.  They are doing a sort of "look back" and going thru each of their products and talking about them.  Past up thru current.  I'm looking forward to when they get to the KX-5 Twenty and VX-5
Twenty.  If you watch the video, they mention a really cool feature of the K5xe MP... when making a volume change... the volume switching "Wakes Up", makes the change, then "Goes to sleep".  The preamp turns off things that don't need to be on for what it's doing.  Ayre is fanatical about noise... and stuff like that is part of it.  I think most all of their products have built-in power conditioning. 

https://youtu.be/8fnpSd738bU?si=B07V96EfkkwOX1RV

My KX-5 Twenty does have Processor Pass Thru.  Each of the inputs can be turned "ON" and "Off", and labeled.  Also, the overall gain for the preamp can be adjusted in 2 ways.  One is thru the menu option, via a setting.  I think it goes up to +6dB.  The other is via jumpers that you can place into the board.  I have the jumpers and can do either.  So, if using an input that doesn't quite have the gain / output you want, you can adjust for that. 

If you look at the volume control of the KX-5 Twenty... you know you're looking at something pretty special.  There are independent parts on a "pinwheel".  They call it "Variable-Gain Transconductance".  Stereophile sez: "Instead of adjusting volume in the traditional manner—with a potentiometer that discards varying amounts of the product's signal gain—each phase of each stereo channel of the VGT contains 46 discrete resistors that, selected with a rotary switch, create 46 distinct variations on the preamp's voltage-gain stage, for a range of 46 volume levels." When making a volume change, it's like the proper resistor is being "soldered in".  It make a unique noise as it actuates.  And every time I hear it, it makes me smile.  Another thing I really like about it is that it has 2 pairs of Balanced outputs.

This thing is pretty pricey.  I bought it used and fortunately only had to buy it once.  I'm really glad I did.  I've tried running the RME direct to my amp and I think I like it better thru the preamp.  If it's adding distortion...well then it's the distortion profile that I like - so be it.  I like owning nice things made with care.

However... even with how much I like this stuff and thinks it's cool and like owning it, and ramble on... based on what I have experienced and think I now know... if I were starting from scratch and looking to create something that could rival just about anything, for not a ton of money, I would do this, to reiterate:

1) Buy a used RME ADI-2 DAC FS.  I bought mine for $850.  You'll have a DAC, preamp, and 7 band PEQ.  Many have not considered that sort of thing / brand.  It's a "Studio Gear Brand".  Up until several months ago I hadn't even heard of it, until a buddy raved about it and talked about replacing megabuck gear with it.  Some will say "But, it's digital".  Yes... USB / Coax / Optical input to the DAC and it does DSP in the Digital Domain, then analog output via a pair of Balanced and RCA outputs.  And the way they do the analog output is totally unique because it runs the DAC chip at its ideal dynamic range the entire time - "Auto Reference Volume".  The output has a "presence" that is unique.  You can run direct to your amp.  And here's the thing... there is a very good chance that the music you, me, and anyone complaining about "it's digital" are listening to was recorded, mixed, and mastered with RME gear in the studio.  So...it is what it is.

They have a user forum where the lead designer / guy who writes the 120 page HYPER DETAILED manuals engage with users, actively.  They are very serious about their product and what they are doing.  They have 3 models aimed at Home hifi.  The top one has a phono preamp.  All of the units will make you a ham sandwich, if you want.

2) Buy a used amp with low overall feedback.  (My preference) The new Schiit Aegir 2 (if it doesn't hum) or that Ayre AX-7e was a "Stereophile Class A" component (maybe they bought an ad) and can be had for ~$1,100.  It's a sleeper product.  It also has processor pass thru.  If you already have a DAC, you can just use that.  The Aegir 2 is supposed to launch next week.

A fella could have all electronics done for ~$2k, and it could very well rival just about any setup out there. I have this exact gear in the house and just haven't fooled with swapping it in to give myself a rash about whether I should be selling a bunch of expensive stuff...

"Variable Gain Transconductance" Volume Control

That preamp is super nice.  I haven't seen that type of volume control in any other preamp.  It by itself could be the reference level for many companies and then you see the R series.  Those look amazing.

I like what I read about the RME DAC.   I'm just afraid that it with my NX-Otica's and SMC audio amp will be to analytical. 

[Jaytor]

The volume control is one of the most interesting engineering challenges for a preamp. There are MANY different approaches used.

The simple potentiometer is probably the most common in inexpensive products, but these tend to have problems with channel tracking and noise, particularly as the potentiometer gets well used, dusty, or just dried out from age.

With the advent of microprocessor control, chip-based volume controls have become quite popular, particularly for components like AV processors/receivers which have a lot of channels to control. These use FET-switched resistor networks and can be pretty good to excellent.

Relay switched attenuators have also become pretty popular in recent years and can be found in relatively inexpensive components such as the Schitt Freya, as well as very expensive components like the Pilium preamp.

Yet another approach is using transformer volume controls which switch between multiple taps of a transformer. The challenge with these is that you need a separate tap for each volume level, so the  jumps between steps can be excessive.

The Ayre volume control shown appears to use a rotary-switched  resistor network. This has the advantage of fewer resistors/contacts that the signal must pass through, but has the disadvantage of fairly large steps since there is a limit to the number of contacts that can be implemented.

This Ayre volume control looks like it would be very nice with very few resistors/contacts in the signal path, but obviously is fairly complex in construction which could result in reliability issues long-term.

So far, I've been using the relay-switched attenuator approach for my own builds, but I've been strongly considering trying a chip-based approach. Many of the top commercial products (e.g. Pass, Audio Research) have used these with good results. The latest Musus72323 chip looks particularly promising. This is a 20K digitally controlled potentiometer with excellent tracking and very low noise and distortion (THD + Noise is 0.0007%).

[BrandonB]

The latest Musus72323 chip looks particularly promising. This is a 20K digitally controlled potentiometer with excellent tracking and very low noise and distortion (THD + Noise is 0.0007%).

By chance do you know of any preamps besides Pass Labs that uses that chip.  I tried looking it up but didn't find much?

[Jaytor]

By chance do you know of any preamps besides Pass Labs that uses that chip.  I tried looking it up but didn't find much?

Unfortunately, manufacturers generally don't indicate what components they are using. The Muses72323 is a relatively new part, so only very recently released products would be using it. I've seen schematics for older products, like the Audio Research REF5 that use other digitally-controlled volume control parts.

These parts do not convert audio data into digital. They work similar to the way a relay-switched resistor attenuator works, but use FETs instead of relays.

[BrandonB]

Unfortunately, manufacturers generally don't indicate what components they are using. The Muses72323 is a relatively new part, so only very recently released products would be using it. I've seen schematics for older products, like the Audio Research REF5 that use other digitally-controlled volume control parts.

These parts do not convert audio data into digital. They work similar to the way a relay-switched resistor attenuator works, but use FETs instead of relays.

As a DIY'er do you think you can build better equipment than purchasing name brand?  I know this is true with speakers but I am referring to amplifiers, preamps DAC's etc.. 

[Jaytor]

As a DIY'er do you think you can build better equipment than purchasing name brand?  I know this is true with speakers but I am referring to amplifiers, preamps DAC's etc.. 

I wouldn't necessarily say "better". I  enjoy the challenge of designing and building my own gear, and particularly building stuff that is sonically and aesthetically comparable to some of the best equipment on the market.

I'm sure I am not saving money, particularly when you consider that I often build several iterations of a particular design before I'm satisfied, and that the resale value is essentially zero. 

I think if you are aiming for good quality (but not state-of-the-art) and aren't interested in experimenting (i.e. building proven designs), then you can build products that deliver better price-performance than commercial products. For example, most of the FirstWatt amps are very well documented, and build kits, or at least PCBs and BOMs, are generally available. If you use a chassis from Modushop or from some of the asian suppliers, you can put something together for half the cost of the commercial product of less.

This is what I started out doing, but I found I enjoyed designing my own stuff, fabricating my own PCBs, and designing and building high-quality custom enclosures. So instead of using 3mm thick recycled aluminum, I'm building my enclosures with high quality 8-10mm thick panels with custom machining. And instead of using inexpensive Hammond or Antek transformers, I'm using custom Toroidy, Lundahl, and Monolith Magnetics transformers. Add in the Vishay Z-foil and Audio Note silver tantalum resistors, Miflex and V-Cap copper foil caps, hand-matched transistors (which requires I start out with a lot more than I need), etc. and my build cost is many times higher.

Is it worth it? If I was looking at it strictly as value for the dollar, I would say no. But as I said, a lot of my enjoyment and satisfaction comes from the process of designing and building my own equipment. This is a hobby for me, not a for-profit business.

[Tyson]

Generally retail has a markup of 8x over COGS (parts cost).  For DIY we pay retail for the parts, not wholesale, so our COGS is usually 2x what a company can make.  So a quick and dirty value calculation for DIY is 4x COGS for us. 

If it costs us $500 to build an amp, it's generally comparable to a $2k retail amp.

[Jaytor]

Generally retail has a markup of 8x over COGS (parts cost).  For DIY we pay retail for the parts, not wholesale, so our COGS is usually 2x what a company can make.  So a quick and dirty value calculation for DIY is 4x COGS for us. 

If it costs us $500 to build an amp, it's generally comparable to a $2k retail amp.

I think this can really vary a lot. As an extreme example, consider replicating something like a Denon AVR-S670H 5.2 channel AV receiver for $550. You'd have a hard time building just the enclosure for this price.

If you wanted to build a basic stereo Purifi 1ET400A amp with a single Hypex SMPS1200a400 power supply, cheap chassis, and simple op-amp input buffers, it would cost you about $1000 or so. VTV sells this same configuration  factory-built with a warranty for $1100. But this kind of product involves connected preassembled boards, so you are already paying a lot of the markup from the parts cost.

The First Watt amps are probably the best example of Tyson's 4x formula. These generally sell for around $4000 new from the factory. You can probably build one with a simple chassis (the factory chassis is not that fancy anyway) for about $800 to $1000. But that is assuming you don't make any mistakes in the build and have to replace parts, and spend time shopping around for the best cost on parts. Electronic components have gone up in price a LOT in the past few years, so this could be an under estimate.

But the First Watt amps aren't really designed as commercial products in the same way as the Pass Labs products. They are Nelson Pass's contribution to the DIY community and a way for him to experiment with different amplifier topologies.

Higher end products are where you will see the most mark-up over parts cost. I'm talking about amps and preamps that sell for $10K or more (sometimes much more). These are (were) not produced in very high volume, so the manufacturer has to cover their overhead (including engineering, marketing, management, facilities, etc.) with far fewer unit sales. It takes some engineering know-how to be able to replicate these kind of products, but the schematics of many older (10+ years) products can often be found. And some of these would still be considered outstanding products today (particularly the tube based products). The challenge with many of these designs is that the original parts used are no longer available, so an ability to figure out appropriate substitute parts is required.

If you want to get your feet wet with DIY, I'd suggest one of the Elekits. These sell for between $500 to $2200  (plus the cost of the tubes in the case of their higher end 300B amps). They are well designed with excellent build instructions, and are comparable to commercial products that are 2-3x the cost. Yes, you could save a little money by sourcing all the parts yourself, but that can take a lot of time and effort.

The ANK kits are also very nice products, but are pricier, not as well documented, and often have issues with missing parts (although the company will generally rectify these shortages as quickly as possible when made aware).

[Early B.]

My DIY skills are lacking, so I commission others to do the work. The secret to keeping the cost low is finding experts who enjoy doing the work as a hobby. Even with labor cost, the resulting product is custom-made, has the highest quality parts, and probably compares to similar commercial products costing several times more. For instance, my DIY speakers cost about $3K to build, but I wouldn't hesitate to put them in the ring against any comparable speaker regardless of price. They may lose the fight against the best in the business, but they'll perform like Francis Ngannou did vs. Tyson Fury. Yeah, the resale value for DIY gear is low, but the cost is relatively low, so it evens out.

I'm currently commissioning a build for a linear power supply for my streamer. I can get one custom-built for roughly the same price that I can buy a new one from a prominent after-market manufacturer, but my DIY version will be 3x larger and ridiculously overbuilt with a massive transformer, higher quality parts, and a custom chassis. 

   

[BrandonB]

My DIY skills are lacking, so I commission others to do the work. The secret to keeping the cost low is finding experts who enjoy doing the work as a hobby. Even with labor cost, the resulting product is custom-made, has the highest quality parts, and probably compares to similar commercial products costing several times more. For instance, my DIY speakers cost about $3K to build, but I wouldn't hesitate to put them in the ring against any comparable speaker regardless of price. They may lose the fight against the best in the business, but they'll perform like Francis Ngannou did vs. Tyson Fury. Yeah, the resale value for DIY gear is low, but the cost is relatively low, so it evens out.

I'm currently commissioning a build for a linear power supply for my streamer. I can get one custom-built for roughly the same price that I can buy a new one from a prominent after-market manufacturer, but my DIY version will be 3x larger and ridiculously overbuilt with a massive transformer, higher quality parts, and a custom chassis. 

 

I totally agree.  Do you have a list of people that do specific builds?