OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3

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Tyson

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #200 on: 29 Oct 2022, 07:23 pm »
Do you have a different amp/preamp you can put in place of the NAD temporarily?

hawkeyejw

Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #201 on: 29 Oct 2022, 09:27 pm »
So that 370watt amp may only be putting out 180watts per driver, who knows....

I’m curious about your belief the amplifier is underpowered. Are you of the opinion that everyone that has stated these subs are capable of 100+ db in similar sized rooms are lying? Honestly it’s very strange to me that you are getting at least 20 db less than these subs are known to put out in room, and yet you’re seemingly convinced that the problem is the standard amp is underpowered and not a setup issue or defect. What am I missing?

Danny Richie

Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #202 on: 30 Oct 2022, 12:09 am »
Danny, I have verified the wiring 157 times. I have gone and hooked up to the pre-outs instead of the sub-outs as it gave me a 3Db increase on the volume dial. So that is good. Here's the issue I have, due to the OB design itself requires an additional +6Db EQing out of the gate ! That is a LOT of lost power is it not. Clipping is clipping is clipping....I'm sorry

Is there such a thing as too much amplifier in audio ? it eliminates clipping.

" You know all OB main speakers and sub needs a 6db/oct correction which impact the efficiency.   Basically starting from 120hz, you cut the maximum output by 50% for every octave down.  There are two octave from 120hz down to 30hz "

Brian's words.

You are not clipping because you are running out of amplifier power. You have plenty of power. You have something else causing this problem.

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #203 on: 30 Oct 2022, 12:10 am »
Well they are under warranty, maybe Danny can simply change them out. Like one person said up the thread, maybe you have two bad amps. One does buzz off and on occasionally, Brain said it sounded like a DC offset issue too and I would have to go through Danny as that is where I bought them. I have not heard any offers relating to that from GR Research.

Danny Richie

Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #204 on: 30 Oct 2022, 12:11 am »
Well no sense going with the Rythmik 600 watt amp. Just looked at the specs, they are rated at 600watts into 4 ohms, or 200 watts into 8 ohms. So NOTHING will change. Even the A370PEQ says 370watts but doesn't state what ohm load at 370watts. Whatever anymore, seriously.

Again, you don't have a power problem. You have plenty of power.

Danny Richie

Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #205 on: 30 Oct 2022, 12:14 am »
Well they are under warranty, maybe Danny can simply change them out. Like one person said up the thread, maybe you have two bad amps. One does buzz off and on occasionally, Brain said it sounded like a DC offset issue too and I would have to go through Danny as that is where I bought them. I have not heard any offers relating to that from GR Research.

Fell free to send them back to me. I can easily hook them up in my system and check them. If there is anything wrong with the amps, I will get you new ones.

I have yet to see any of these amps have this issue, let alone two of them. Something else is causing the issue you are having.

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #206 on: 30 Oct 2022, 08:44 pm »
I will get them shipped to you next week. I will mark the one that buzzes every 5 minutes or so. Brian had me try a bunch of things to no avail. But amp still works. Brian had mentioned DC offset issues. I do have them plugged into a dedicated 20 amp circuit.

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #207 on: 30 Oct 2022, 08:46 pm »
This has nothing to do with the other amp that starts clipping at the same volume setting.

77SunsetStrip

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #208 on: 9 Nov 2022, 03:11 pm »
Any update on the Sub amps going back to Danny for check out?

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #209 on: 10 Nov 2022, 10:28 pm »
Well I meant to get them back to Danny like I had said in my post, but then the wife pointed out with the holiday's coming it might be better to wait as they are still under warranty till March. I just have the right side amp making a grunting sound every minute or so. This is with just the amp itself plugged in with no signal. Maybe it just slipped through QC, who know... Other than the sound it makes it seems to play just fine. I also want to get some SPL legit readings hopefully this weekend. I did a quicky with REW and the Umik1 which is pre calibrated at 75Db. I just held my laptop in one hand and the mic three inches of the dust cap with just music content with low bass notes at random  and could achieve 100Db but it was a push on the main volume. when measured at the MLP it mas a mere 88Db. Danny had stated he can easily hit 125Db peaks at 20Hz at fifteen feet away ! that to me seems a bit of a stretch with this amp ? that would I guarantee be clipping the hell out of these amps. By the way, this was with Dirac Live defeated as it does rob power from the signal by basically bringing down the peaks in response.   

Danny Richie

Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #210 on: 10 Nov 2022, 11:01 pm »
Quote
Danny had stated he can easily hit 125Db peaks at 20Hz at fifteen feet away! that to me seems a bit of a stretch with this amp ? that would I guarantee be clipping the hell out of these amps.

I said 115db, and they do that easily with no issues and the amps are not clipping at all.


77SunsetStrip

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #211 on: 11 Nov 2022, 03:31 am »
Well I meant to get them back to Danny like I had said in my post, but then the wife pointed out with the holiday's coming it might be better to wait as they are still under warranty till March. I just have the right side amp making a grunting sound every minute or so. This is with just the amp itself plugged in with no signal. Maybe it just slipped through QC, who know... Other than the sound it makes it seems to play just fine. I also want to get some SPL legit readings hopefully this weekend. I did a quicky with REW and the Umik1 which is pre calibrated at 75Db. I just held my laptop in one hand and the mic three inches of the dust cap with just music content with low bass notes at random  and could achieve 100Db but it was a push on the main volume. when measured at the MLP it mas a mere 88Db. Danny had stated he can easily hit 125Db peaks at 20Hz at fifteen feet away ! that to me seems a bit of a stretch with this amp ? that would I guarantee be clipping the hell out of these amps. By the way, this was with Dirac Live defeated as it does rob power from the signal by basically bringing down the peaks in response.

You really need to send the Sub amps back to Danny ASAP.  You have mentioned more than once having limited time, yet there seems to be plenty of time to point fingers at the Sub amps.  If they are bad or good Danny will tell you.  Getting that settled will be positive progress.

Did you buy the NAD amp new or used?  Having to run that amp at 80% for an acceptable listening level does not sound right.  What SPL level are the Spatial speakers alone producing with the NAD at 80% of maximum? 

Dirac does not rob power from anything.  It processes the signal in the low voltage circuitry prior to amplification.  Dirac does not rob power!!!

You have to interpret the LEDs on the Sub amp properly.  Have you ever confirmed what a flashing LED on the input indicates?  FACTS are required to solve this problem.  Speculation is nothing but time wasted.


dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #212 on: 11 Nov 2022, 01:07 pm »
I have set aside time for tomorrow. Going to run SPL measurements. And Oscilloscope outputs of the M33 sub and pre amp outputs for clipping and also the plate amps output at clipping. Hell, maybe it's the M33 outs to the sub amps that are clipping? And apologize for not having the dedicated time at my disposal for all of this. If I can't find the answer tomorrow. I will get the amps out. Sorry for misquoting you Danny. My apologies

dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #213 on: 12 Nov 2022, 08:19 pm »
I have checked for clipping at woofer terminals and can't get 40hz sine wave to clip on scope, but at 40hz at 18volts, red LEDs are lit solid. I of course turned things down immediately. Perhaps it's the servo system going into overload?? Still had nice smooth crest's?? I am now trying speaker level connection's but can't get signal to pass through to mains at all ?? Wondering if this could be a Class D integrated issue?? I'm going to have to get with NAD on this I'm afraid. Kind of at a loss right now? Have any of you had issues with speaker level inputs not passing to mains ?

NoahH

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #214 on: 13 Nov 2022, 12:22 am »
Have any of you had issues with speaker level inputs not passing to mains ?

The M33 has balanced speaker level outputs. I suspect the relaying of a signal through the plate amp was not designed for a balanced signal. But it does not matter - you generally want to run the subs and mains in parallel. Running your speaker signal through a bunch of extra couplings is really not a good sound quality idea.

77SunsetStrip

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #215 on: 13 Nov 2022, 01:11 am »
I have checked for clipping at woofer terminals and can't get 40hz sine wave to clip on scope, but at 40hz at 18volts, red LEDs are lit solid. I of course turned things down immediately. Perhaps it's the servo system going into overload?? Still had nice smooth crest's?? I am now trying speaker level connection's but can't get signal to pass through to mains at all ?? Wondering if this could be a Class D integrated issue?? I'm going to have to get with NAD on this I'm afraid. Kind of at a loss right now? Have any of you had issues with speaker level inputs not passing to mains ?

OK. You see a nice clean 40Hz sine at the woofer terminals.  That should mean the sub amp output is a clean, non-distorted signal. Hmmm, so what do the LEDs mean? 

Do you know for a fact that the LEDs indicate clipping?  I would assume they are there to indicate some sort of problem, but assuming only leads to trouble.

Did you check for DC offset at the sub amp input/NAD output?

What does the servo signal at the woofer look like?

More investigation with a scope and voltmeter might uncover the problem.  However, pointed questions for NAD and Brian are more likely to sort this problem.  Nobody using GR Research subs has yet to come forward with a similar problem.  This is a head scratcher.










EdwardT

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #216 on: 13 Nov 2022, 03:23 pm »
I've looked at all of the Rythmik plate amp photos and I only see a single led above the switch marked on/auto/off. In the auto position it’s also marked limiter which makes me think it indicates when the limiter engages. I don’t have this product, but I’ve been reading along because I’m looking to upgrade my current sub amps and Rythmik is a brand I’m reading about.
As always, I can be wrong but it appears a mass of easy diagnostics have been ignored and the led blinking could be another.

77SunsetStrip

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #217 on: 13 Nov 2022, 04:21 pm »
I've looked at all of the Rythmik plate amp photos and I only see a single led above the switch marked on/auto/off. In the auto position it’s also marked limiter which makes me think it indicates when the limiter engages. I don’t have this product, but I’ve been reading along because I’m looking to upgrade my current sub amps and Rythmik is a brand I’m reading about.
As always, I can be wrong but it appears a mass of easy diagnostics have been ignored and the led blinking could be another.

You may have identified the problem. 

The blinking LEDs assumed to indicate clipping are on the circuitry side of the amp.  That location would not normally be visible to the user and was questioned previously.  What those LEDs actually indicate has been questioned.  Unfortunately, information on the Rythmik web site could be better.


dallaire1

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #218 on: 14 Nov 2022, 11:25 am »
They are overload indicators. Maybe Danny knows what the red lights are? Brian never emailed me back.

77SunsetStrip

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Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #219 on: 14 Nov 2022, 03:35 pm »
They are overload indicators. Maybe Danny knows what the red lights are? Brian never emailed me back.

Does it seem odd to you that overload indicators would be on the circuitry side that is typically not visible to the user?

My internet searches could find nothing about those LEDs.  Brian needs to explain precisely what those LEDs are intended to convey.  Overload? DC offset? Failure?

Previously mentioned regarding the NAD, some cases reported of DIRAC requiring a fresh install.