[ted_b]

Dan's happy customers and his great work don't need the Nuance stamp of approval.  His proof is widespread....researched or otherwise.

Yup - I went edit happy on that one.  I wanted to be sure you knew I shouldn't have lumped Dan in there, but also that I still think it wouldn't make much difference.  And I never said he needed my "stamp of approval."  That's kind of a silly thing to say, Ted.  Some people won't like Salk, but I won't belittle them, as it's their opinion.  Perhaps you should try doing the same.

Huh?  belittle?  You began by naysaying my post and then further stated  "there's no proof in Dan's gear being any good; where's the proof" (paraphrased).  I came to Dan's defense (fairly softly I might add), you apologized!! But then retracted, and I responded in kind.  Keep your facts straight please!!

Let's get this back on track for goodness sake!   In summary, the SB3 is a decent sounding stock unit, can be modded (Wayne's is great) and the TP, although a more solid platform, is only OK stock.  It's clear that Dan's Modwright Transporter, lauded by 6Moons, PFO and the Absolute Sound, to name a few, is a great mod, and there are others.  All should marry well with the Salk brand.

[oneinthepipe]

Obviously, there are some philosophical differences among various individuals and groups on Audio Circle.  There are those that believe "watts are watts" and "zeros and ones are zeros and ones."  There are those that believe that something that makes an appreciable difference can be measured with test equipment.  There are others that believe that they can hear differences that might not be verified by specific measurements.  I can hear differences in my system because, in my opinion, my electronics and speakers are revealing.  If I had less revealing components, I don't think that I would be able to hear the differences.

Nuance, as far as George influencing my listening experience because he is well-respected, I wish to say, that while I respect George's opinion, I also have my own ears.  I also respect your opinion, and your opinion contributed to my purchase of two pair of Salk speakers, without ever auditioning either of them, I might add.  I also don't think that this is entirely an issue of buying power, although having more money doesn't hurt, but we have compared Salk speakers to speakers that cost much more and questioned the sensibilities of the buyers of inferior products.  I have received numerous recommendations of components that cost less than the components that I purchased. 

While I believe in the value of different opinions, I think that we should take a deep breath and remember that we are in this together.

On another note, I collect modern firearms, and a lot of people buy XXX-brand pistols.  Just because they are popular doesn't make them very good compared to lesser marketed pistols.  XXX-brand isn't ripping anyone off, however.  They reach a broad market and sell a mediocre product at the highest market price.  I think that would be a much more difficult feat with a small manufacturer that sells a custom product to a knowledgeable consumer.  Not that snake oil salesman haven't been around since time began.  Maybe snake oil sales are the second oldest profession.  The consumer has the responsibility to become knowledgeable, which is the reason, besides the camaraderie, that I am here.

[mgalusha]

A few semi random thoughts...

If you are going to a DAC, there should be absolutely no difference.  The bitstream either puts out should be EXACTLY the same as the original CD.  In this case, the DAC determines the sound quality.

The bit stream should be the same, but that is not always the case. The redbook CD standard includes an error correction mechanism to try to fill in any missing bits whe a disk it not properly read. How often this kicks in will depend on the quality of the disk and the quality of the player. One of the advantages of a hard disk based system is that since the disk does not have to be read in real time, it can be re-read to verify the bit were read correctly. There are a few, very expensive, transports that do this but they are not the norm. The new, hideously expensive, Boulder that is in this months Stereophile is one such device. I believe the PS Audio Perfect Wave Transport does this as well.

Even if the data is exactly the same, there are unfortunately other things that can cause trouble. The obvious one is jitter, which are timing errors. Modern DAC's are much less sensitive to this but it can still be a problem. Bits are still the same but not necessary decoded at precisely the correct time.

Another thing that can muck it up is the integrity of the waveform. It should be a perfect square wave, fully on or fully off. But things can cause trouble and lead to potential errors. Noise in the supply rails can raise the zero level, the leading edge can become slightly rounded, ringing can occur. These can make it more difficult for the DAC to decode the signal and can impact the timing in the case of a rounded leading edge. There is a excellent thread on digital signals by Pat from Analog Research Technology with a heading something like "improving the Squeezebox digital output". He is an RF engineer and has posted TDR traces showing what a digital output should and should not look like. IMO it's well worth the time to find and read, regardless whether one owns a squeezebox or not.

As to the efficacy of a power supply on the squeezbox. Some years ago when I first started playing with them I built a solid linear supply and a battery powered supply. Both used the same regulators and similar filter caps. I fitted a toggle switch in the box and there is sufficient capacitance in the SB to allow real time switching with no noise or dropout. Since they were both regulated at 5V there was no change in level, so it was a fair comparison. At a get together I asked for feedback from the folks present. While not double blind, it was single blind in that I was the only one who knew what supply was in use. All participants could tell them apart and much to our surprise the AC powered supply was preferred. I'm sure this isn't definitive enough for many folks but it was quite clarifying for me.

Just my nickels worth, YMMV.

mike

[zybar]

A few semi random thoughts...

If you are going to a DAC, there should be absolutely no difference.  The bitstream either puts out should be EXACTLY the same as the original CD.  In this case, the DAC determines the sound quality.

The bit stream should be the same, but that is not always the case. The redbook CD standard includes an error correction mechanism to try to fill in any missing bits whe a disk it not properly read. How often this kicks in will depend on the quality of the disk and the quality of the player. One of the advantages of a hard disk based system is that since the disk does not have to be read in real time, it can be re-read to verify the bit were read correctly. There are a few, very expensive, transports that do this but they are not the norm. The new, hideously expensive, Boulder that is in this months Stereophile is one such device. I believe the PS Audio Perfect Wave Transport does this as well.

Even if the data is exactly the same, there are unfortunately other things that can cause trouble. The obvious one is jitter, which are timing errors. Modern DAC's are much less sensitive to this but it can still be a problem. Bits are still the same but not necessary decoded at precisely the correct time.

Another thing that can muck it up is the integrity of the waveform. It should be a perfect square wave, fully on or fully off. But things can cause trouble and lead to potential errors. Noise in the supply rails can raise the zero level, the leading edge can become slightly rounded, ringing can occur. These can make it more difficult for the DAC to decode the signal and can impact the timing in the case of a rounded leading edge. There is a excellent thread on digital signals by Pat from Analog Research Technology with a heading something like "improving the Squeezebox digital output". He is an RF engineer and has posted TDR traces showing what a digital output should and should not look like. IMO it's well worth the time to find and read, regardless whether one owns a squeezebox or not.

As to the efficacy of a power supply on the squeezbox. Some years ago when I first started playing with them I built a solid linear supply and a battery powered supply. Both used the same regulators and similar filter caps. I fitted a toggle switch in the box and there is sufficient capacitance in the SB to allow real time switching with no noise or dropout. Since they were both regulated at 5V there was no change in level, so it was a fair comparison. At a get together I asked for feedback from the folks present. While not double blind, it was single blind in that I was the only one who knew what supply was in use. All participants could tell them apart and much to our surprise the AC powered supply was preferred. I'm sure this isn't definitive enough for many folks but it was quite clarifying for me.

Just my nickels worth, YMMV.

mike

Thank you for posting Mike and saying in a much better fashion what I wanted to say with my earlier post.   

George

[Nuance]

Huh?  belittle?  You began by naysaying my post and then further stated  "there's no proof in Dan's gear being any good; where's the proof" (paraphrased).  I came to Dan's defense (fairly softly I might add), you apologized!! But then retracted, and I responded in kind.  Keep your facts straight please!!

Oh, they're straight.  And I never retracted my apology.  Go back and see - it's still there.  I said I shouldn't have called Dan's work a scam, and I removed that part of my post.  I did, however, say I doubt it's worth the price (because why would his work be any different than other aftermarket offerings??).  That's a distinct difference. 

Let's get this back on track for goodness sake!   In summary, the SB3 is a decent sounding stock unit, can be modded (Wayne's is great) and the TP, although a more solid platform, is only OK stock.  It's clear that Dan's Modwright Transporter, lauded by 6Moons, PFO and the Absolute Sound, to name a few, is a great mod, and there are others.  All should marry well with the Salk brand.

Wait wait wait...is the Dan we're talking about the one from Modwright, or the one from Boulder (or are they the same)?  I wasn't knocking Modwright, as they make great products.  I was talking about the Bolder power supply for the SB.  If it's the same guy, then I recant all my statements, because Dan from Modwright knows his stuff.

Edit, okay, I see Wayne is the Bolder dude and the "Dan" spoken of is from Modwright.  Sorry - thought that Dan was the Bolder guy.  Well, I have ZERO disbelief in Dan's abilities, as I've heard them.  I have no experience with Wayne from Bolder, though.  Dan's Transporter mod is definitely nicer sounding to my ears than the stock TP.  I cannot say the same for Waynes SB PSU, as I've not heard it, but I have my doubts. 

[rydenfan]

GREAT post Mike, thanks! 

[Nuance]

GREAT post Mike, thanks! 

+1.  Thank you, Mike.

[oneinthepipe]

Mike, very interesting post. 

What would you recommend for a digital source that isn't insanely expensive?   

[zybar]

For those interested, here is the thread started by Pat from Analog Research Technology:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=45330.0


George

[Nuance]

Obviously, there are some philosophical differences among various individuals and groups on Audio Circle.  There are those that believe "watts are watts" and "zeros and ones are zeros and ones."  There are those that believe that something that makes an appreciable difference can be measured with test equipment.  There are others that believe that they can hear differences that might not be verified by specific measurements.  I can hear differences in my system because, in my opinion, my electronics and speakers are revealing.  If I had less revealing components, I don't think that I would be able to hear the differences.

Nuance, as far as George influencing my listening experience because he is well-respected, I wish to say, that while I respect George's opinion, I also have my own ears.  I also respect your opinion, and your opinion contributed to my purchase of two pair of Salk speakers, without ever auditioning either of them, I might add.  I also don't think that this is entirely an issue of buying power, although having more money doesn't hurt, but we have compared Salk speakers to speakers that cost much more and questioned the sensibilities of the buyers of inferior products.  I have received numerous recommendations of components that cost less than the components that I purchased. 

While I believe in the value of different opinions, I think that we should take a deep breath and remember that we are in this together.

You're right.  I am with ya.  Thanks for the breath of fresh air, oneinthepipe.   

On another note, I collect modern firearms, and a lot of people buy XXX-brand pistols.  Just because they are popular doesn't make them very good compared to lesser marketed pistols.  XXX-brand isn't ripping anyone off, however.  They reach a broad market and sell a mediocre product at the highest market price.  I think that would be a much more difficult feat with a small manufacturer that sells a custom product to a knowledgeable consumer.  Not that snake oil salesman haven't been around since time began.  Maybe snake oil sales are the second oldest profession.  The consumer has the responsibility to become knowledgeable, which is the reason, besides the camaraderie, that I am here.

I completely agree.  If the whole "the consumers and customer opinions are proof of a company's products" theory was true, we'd all own and LOVE Bose. 

[TJHUB]

why is the assumption than whenever anyone says they prefer one thing to another that they automatically prefer the more expensive ones? Over the last few weeks I had some cables here that I preferred over my current ones. Guess what???? they cost less! People like George have a willingness to constantly question things they hold as truths in this hobby and should be applauded for it, not bashed. Listen to different systems, different gear, different cables and decide for yourself! not everything in life bolis down to science. Do you think Jim purely builds a speaker based off of science? no. They also listen

I have no idea why there is such a general negativity to high-end audio companies? Sure there are crooks in the high-end, just as there are in the low-end. Jim now has a speaker that costs close to 15K, that put him in the high-end spectrum. Nobody would think that his speaker costs that for any reason except for the increase in materials in time. So why is a company like Bolder called in question for offering products as well? I just dont get the double standard 

I'm very surprised at this post, and very pleasantly surprised. 

The reason is the comment regarding the sound changes of audio gear and CABLES!  I'm so used to seeing or getting the beatdown if I or anyone comments about hearing differences.  I can hear differences almost every time I change a cable and I don't even buy the really high-end stuff.  I'm very tired of those people and they make me feel like I'm crazy.

Nuance:  I in no way want to throw anything negative your way, but I'm surprised at some of your posts in this thread.  I thought you admitted that you heard the difference between the speaker cables I played for you.  Not to mention the big differences in the DACs we listened to a few months back.  I know you didn't expect anything regarding the speaker cables and the DACs were pretty obvious. 

Nonetheless, I'm a believer that those power supply upgrades do make a difference, but you can't deny the seemingly high prices for what you get.  I highly doubt those prices aren't filled with gobs of profit.  I won't claim to understand the business model of some of these companies, but the prices don't seem fit the items.  My opinion of course. 

I'd like to compare an SB3 or Duet to my Roku M2000 one day.  Maybe Nuance and I can work that out for our next GTG.  However, I certainly can't complain about running the Roku into my (stock for now) PS Audio DLIII.  I feed the Roku FLAC files from a NAS device that runs a software package the transcodes the FLAC files to WAV format.  The Roku is connected via digital coax to my DAC.

If I would move onto the SB3 or Duet, I'd have to run things from a NAS device as I'm not a fan of running a computer for music.  Something I have to figure out one day as my Roku is aging at almost 5 years and I don't think they're known for longevity...

[mgalusha]

What would you recommend for a digital source that isn't insanely expensive?   

Ha, I don't really know. I'm still using my hacked up squeezebox and it's little TI DAC. Granted it doesn't much resemble it's original self... 4 power supplies plus two more for the tube section.

One of these days I'll get my Buffalo (ESS Sabre) DAC built. I picked up an ioBox but it's not exactly what one would define as high end but I really don't want to go back to real time optical disks and I don't want a computer in my listening room. If possible I'd like to find the I2S points and feed that into the Buffalo but that's a long ways out. The ioBox feeding an old Musical Fidelity A324 24/96 DAC sounded surprisingly good, at least better that I exepcted.

[sedah]

A few semi random thoughts...

If you are going to a DAC, there should be absolutely no difference.  The bitstream either puts out should be EXACTLY the same as the original CD.  In this case, the DAC determines the sound quality.

The bit stream should be the same, but that is not always the case...<snip>

I was catching up on this thread and was planning a detailed post about ECCs and how a 'cleaner' power source can actually affect the quality of a digital signal. A perfect digital signal may be a square wave but the fact is that they rarely end up as such. The PSU and the cables can make a difference. The chips in the transport as well.

I know this is an audio circle, but I want to quickly point out one of those eye opening moments for me: a couple years ago when I was still running a tube-tv plugged into a wall, I bought a power cleaner on a friends recommendation. The difference in the television was dramatic (and I use that word carefully here after the previous posts  ). The wiring in my apartment complex is rather old and the power is very dirty. I originally thought my TV was the problem, but changing the power going into it made a huge difference.

Would the difference between the PSUs mentioned above be as drastic? I doubt it, but then again, it's quite possible that to some people, the difference is exactly in the bit of sound they pick up on the most. In which case it would be a very drastic change. *shrug*

Thankfully, it looks like I won't have to go into much detail since mgalusha beat me to it. I think his post was spot on.

On a final note, I can remember a professor back in Uni talking about the two approaches taken to digital signals back in the day... "when they discovered that digital signals could have errors in them, there were two schools of thinking: The Japanese decided to make the signals perfect and uncorruptable. If there were no errors in the first place, there would be none to fix. The Americans decided that making a perfect device was impossible and so they started designing error correcting codes in order to validate and fix messed up signals." Of course, things have come a long ways since then and these days everyone gets the best of both schools of thought. 

Ok, I lied... one more thing to add (which mgalusha touched on)... Ultimately the quality of the 1's and 0's arriving at the DAC may not make as much of a difference depending on what's in the DAC. If it has great ECC, is incredibly fast and super resilient to faults, you may not hear a difference in the power supply. Maybe a better test would be with a cheaper DAC. *shrug*

[Nuance]

Nuance:  I in no way want to throw anything negative your way, but I'm surprised at some of your posts in this thread.  I thought you admitted that you heard the difference between the speaker cables I played for you.  Not to mention the big differences in the DACs we listened to a few months back.  I know you didn't expect anything regarding the speaker cables and the DACs were pretty obvious. 

Nonetheless, I'm a believer that those power supply upgrades do make a difference, but you can't deny the seemingly high prices for what you get.  I highly doubt those prices aren't filled with gobs of profit.  I won't claim to understand the business model of some of these companies, but the prices don't seem fit the items.  My opinion of course. 

I take no insult.  I am just talking Power Supplies in this thread.  I don't believe they make huge differences.  Just my $0.02.  All the other stuff you mentioned I heard differences in, even if they were subtle.  Of course, whether it's worth the price of admission is highly opinionated, and that's all up to the individual.

[TJHUB]

Nuance:  I in no way want to throw anything negative your way, but I'm surprised at some of your posts in this thread.  I thought you admitted that you heard the difference between the speaker cables I played for you.  Not to mention the big differences in the DACs we listened to a few months back.  I know you didn't expect anything regarding the speaker cables and the DACs were pretty obvious. 

Nonetheless, I'm a believer that those power supply upgrades do make a difference, but you can't deny the seemingly high prices for what you get.  I highly doubt those prices aren't filled with gobs of profit.  I won't claim to understand the business model of some of these companies, but the prices don't seem fit the items.  My opinion of course. 

I take no insult.  I am just talking Power Supplies in this thread.  I don't believe they make huge differences.  Just my $0.02.  All the other stuff you mentioned I heard differences in, even if they were subtle.  Of course, whether it's worth the price of admission is highly opinionated, and that's all up to the individual.

I agree.  I'd love to hear some of these upgrades, but it's a lot of money.  We need to figure out a way to get small GTGs going to be able to listen and share.  I wish I could stop upgrading.  You'd be surprised to know what I've been considering lately...  

[Nuance]

Nuance:  I in no way want to throw anything negative your way, but I'm surprised at some of your posts in this thread.  I thought you admitted that you heard the difference between the speaker cables I played for you.  Not to mention the big differences in the DACs we listened to a few months back.  I know you didn't expect anything regarding the speaker cables and the DACs were pretty obvious. 

Nonetheless, I'm a believer that those power supply upgrades do make a difference, but you can't deny the seemingly high prices for what you get.  I highly doubt those prices aren't filled with gobs of profit.  I won't claim to understand the business model of some of these companies, but the prices don't seem fit the items.  My opinion of course. 

I take no insult.  I am just talking Power Supplies in this thread.  I don't believe they make huge differences.  Just my $0.02.  All the other stuff you mentioned I heard differences in, even if they were subtle.  Of course, whether it's worth the price of admission is highly opinionated, and that's all up to the individual.

I agree.  I'd love to hear some of these upgrades, but it's a lot of money.  We need to figure out a way to get small GTGs going to be able to listen and share.  I wish I could stop upgrading.  You'd be surprised to know what I've been considering lately...  

It sure would be fun.  If only manufacturers borrowed pieces of equipment out to GTG's of that kind. 

What you've been considering lately?  Hmm...time for you to shoot me an a-mail. 

[Nuance]

Ok, I lied... one more thing to add (which mgalusha touched on)... Ultimately the quality of the 1's and 0's arriving at the DAC may not make as much of a difference depending on what's in the DAC. If it has great ECC, is incredibly fast and super resilient to faults, you may not hear a difference in the power supply. Maybe a better test would be with a cheaper DAC. *shrug*

Now that is VERY interesting, especially that last bit.  So, if that theory is correct, it's entirely possible that those systems who's transports, transporters or DAC's pass the squarewave test might not hear a difference in power supplies swapped out?  If that's true, it could explain a lot, if power supplies do in fact make a substantial audible difference, of course.  In that case, unless the systems are the exact same the results are moot (as in, if the source cannot pass the squarewave, then the results could and probably will differ).  So the issue would then lie in the source device and it's ability to pass the squarewave, no?  And the power supply would just be partly fixing an issue that the source device actually has?

Either way, this topic has been beaten to death.     Some say Nay, some say I.  All that matters is that you hear a difference.  If I cannot, then either I just cannot (due to my ears or there honestly being no difference) or my system is just not good enough to hear it.   

[konut]

  Its my day off, so I've been enjoying this free-for-all about the Squeezebox here in the Salk Circle. And people wonder why "audiophile" is a pejorative term.  Whats being lost in most of this banter is the OPs' question about weather a PC or Mac might be better for his Squeezebox experience. To this I have no experience or opinion, but I will not let that stop me from offering  my irrelevant view of what should influence his decision. IMHO, THE most important consideration concerning digital playback in the quality of the analog section of the DAC. Toward that end I recommend a class A, discrete output section. Thats all. Please resume what ever it is you guys were doing.   

[jsalk]

Jim, I have asked a friend who is much more technical than myself to respond to your questions.  If he doesn't I will give it a crack.  BTW, not last year, but the year before, there were quite a few people in the David Ellis room who got to hear SB power supplies from Wayne at Bolder Cable and Hugh at AKSA Audio and all agreed that they heard improvements over the stock PS. 

George

The power supply I used at RMAF was supplied by one of the two you mention.  I can definitely see the benefits if you were listening to the analog outputs (and I imagine most of those hearing the difference were).  But I still can't understand why when using the SB's digital outputs it could make any difference.

- Jim

[Nuance]

But I still can't understand why when using the SB's digital outputs it could make any difference.
- Jim

That's what I've been wondering this entire time, thus my disbelief in them. 

Wait a minute - how come I got jumped on but Jim didn't?