OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 14209 times.

dallaire1

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 244
Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #240 on: 18 Nov 2022, 07:35 pm »
I am trying to get the performance I paid for and read about before purchase. So now I need a power regenerator ?? please tell me your kidding...

BGA

Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #241 on: 18 Nov 2022, 07:55 pm »
I am trying to get the performance I paid for and read about before purchase. So now I need a power regenerator ?? please tell me your kidding...

Power "conditioner" not regenerator. You are paying for an amplifier not for anyone to come to your house and clean your power.

DC on AC lines is a known problem, both your amps buzzing sounds like something other than defects.

dallaire1

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 244
Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #242 on: 18 Nov 2022, 09:44 pm »
Sorry I was just being sarcastic about the power regenerator. I just measured the DC offset at the speaker leads, 7.4uV I left the leads of the DMM attached so I could wait for a transformer groan to cycle, still held firm at 7.4uV

sameguy

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 6
Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #243 on: 18 Nov 2022, 09:48 pm »
I've read this entire thread and keep going back to two points that the OP has mentioned.  One being that he is listening to music or getting clipping (on the subs) at 80% on the volume dial on a $6k integrated with around 400 watts going to VERY efficient speakers.  I would guess that this system (if set up correctly (and I mean no disrespect to the OP by saying that)) at 80% volume would be concert level DB and literally chase anyone out of the room rather quickly.  So I'm wondering if possibly either the input signal (source) is abnormally low that the NAD has to be turned up so much that the output to the sub amps is clipping? (for instance when streaming from my macbook, i occasionally have the volume down on the macbooks output to my dac, which in turn causes me to turn the volume up to abnormally high on my preamp to get the volume I need)  Could there be some settings in the NAD's system that are not correct?  Possible some partial muting or something like that?  Have you tried a different source, streamer, cd player, etc?  In reviews of the NAD I have not read anyone having concerns that it has to be turned up an excessive amount to get adequate volume out of it.  The second point, and forgive me if I have missed it along the way but it sounded as though the wiring or phase of the subs was in question.  Correct me if I am wrong, but one woofer is facing front and one facing back.  One of the woofers 'should' be wired out of phase with the other so that an input signal pushes the both woofers towards or away from the listener simultaneously regardless of the woofers orientation in the cabinet, right? I thought the OP said he had them wired so one was firing forward and the other firing opposite.  If that is the case I would guess that would cause the original issue all in itself.  Also, if they were wired this way, (opposite) and the OP went to correct the issue WITHOUT correcting the servo wiring on that woofer we can see how this would cause an issue as well.

dallaire1

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 244
Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #244 on: 18 Nov 2022, 10:15 pm »
You nailed it. Like I said this amp and the M3's simply walk away from the subs ability.

Brian, and I quote.

"Yes, the red LED on circuit board is clipping. Is the buzzing from the transformer or from the speaker driver?"

I have of this writing not replied yet.

Jaytor

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 322
    • My System
Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #245 on: 18 Nov 2022, 10:26 pm »
As others have noted, it sure sounds like the speakers are wired incorrectly. If the servo wires are wired incorrectly, the poor amp would be fighting itself trying to correct the position. I don't know exactly how this circuit works, but I could imagine that this could cause problems for the amp.

dallaire1

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 244
Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #246 on: 18 Nov 2022, 10:27 pm »
Reply from Brian, quote

"it is not the amplifier is under power, it is the limitation of OB subwoofer. OB subwoofer loses quite a bit of efficiency because of the front wave and back wave cancelation. At 20hz, one single sealed driver has the equivalent output of 4 OB drivers. You cannot use 14hz extension setting for OB sub."

As I had said before regarding Linkwitz work. OB has its limitations due to physics, I guess I expected simply more output "without clipping". I don't always listen at those levels mentioned. Just like owning a Lambo doesn't mean you drive 200 miles an hour all the time, but when the time presents itself, yeah, I want the ability to open it up ! that is what this hobby is all about to me.

Jaytor

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 322
    • My System
Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #247 on: 18 Nov 2022, 11:51 pm »
Well, I think we all understand that OB woofers require more cone area/excursion to deliver the same bass output, which is why Danny recommends at least two drivers and most users have a pair of doubles or triples.

I have a pair of triples and have the extension set at 20Hz, not 14Hz. They produce way more than enough bass. Certainly as much as from any system I've heard at trade shows or any of the many other systems I've owned over the past 50 years.

77SunsetStrip

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 118
Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #248 on: 19 Nov 2022, 12:15 am »
You nailed it. Like I said this amp and the M3's simply walk away from the subs ability.

Brian, and I quote.

"Yes, the red LED on circuit board is clipping. Is the buzzing from the transformer or from the speaker driver?"

I have of this writing not replied yet.

Per Brian, the LEDs indicate clipping.  One LED is on the input and one on the output - Correct?  Therefore, a clipping indication on the input side means the source signal from the NAD has a problem.  Either the NAD signal is clipped - quite possibly due to 80% max volume, or there is DC offset, voltage or impedance mismatch between Sub amp and NAD, or other problem WITH THE SOURCE.  The subwoofer amp is screaming at you there is something not right about the input signal.

The problem with the source signal MUST be resolved before you can expect ANY subwoofer amp to work properly.

Your are reading too much into Brian's comments about Open Baffle subwoofers.  One 250W sub amp, 4 drivers, no servo control, no DIRAC and I can make pictures on the wall dance.  Nowhere near max volume on the sub amp or main speaker amp.   

 


dallaire1

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 244
Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #249 on: 19 Nov 2022, 10:35 am »
Brian never said one LED was for input and one for output, I had said that maybe the case. Brian assured me it's simply the limitations of OB bass. AGAIN, as Linkwitz came to the same conclusions. Hey, don't get me wrong, they sound fantastic! Just don't expect references levels without problems.

Tyson

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 10330
  • Audio - It's all a big fake.
Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #250 on: 19 Nov 2022, 03:50 pm »
In my setup, the x3 hits clipping in the bass long before the servo subs. 

77SunsetStrip

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 118
Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #251 on: 19 Nov 2022, 03:54 pm »
Brian never said one LED was for input and one for output, I had said that maybe the case. Brian assured me it's simply the limitations of OB bass. AGAIN, as Linkwitz came to the same conclusions. Hey, don't get me wrong, they sound fantastic! Just don't expect references levels without problems.

Okay, then we still do not have complete facts to work with.  Another possibility for 2 LEDs is one for output and one for the servo circuit.  Just a different rabbit hole to go down without facts.  Regardless, Danny will be able to find out if there is anything wrong with the sub amps.

dallaire1

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 244
Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #252 on: 19 Nov 2022, 05:16 pm »
Okay, then we still do not have complete facts to work with.  Another possibility for 2 LEDs is one for output and one for the servo circuit.  Just a different rabbit hole to go down without facts.  Regardless, Danny will be able to find out if there is anything wrong with the sub amps.

Agreed.

dallaire1

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 244
Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #253 on: 19 Nov 2022, 05:22 pm »
In my setup, the x3 hits clipping in the bass long before the servo subs.

Interesting, I wonder if it is due to the fact that the wrap around effect happens much more quickly on a comparatively thin baffle on the X3's as the tunnel of the H frame design has to delay the cancelation effect due to the length front to back ? and not having a servo system has got to play a big roll.

I thought Clayton went back to all passive and ditched the powered woofer ?? thought I read that somewhere..

jn316

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 416
Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #254 on: 19 Nov 2022, 05:26 pm »
Brian never said one LED was for input and one for output, I had said that maybe the case. Brian assured me it's simply the limitations of OB bass. AGAIN, as Linkwitz came to the same conclusions. Hey, don't get me wrong, they sound fantastic! Just don't expect references levels without problems.

That's not a very good business model for Brian to take...my amps suck if you expect any kind of significant output out of them for OB bass. I would have never bought them if this were the case and Brian marketed them this way. Don't really think that is what he meant with his comments to you. What you have is NOT normal operation as attested to by all kinds of owners. Either the amps are bad (not likely for both of them), or you have other issues (most likely).

Tyson

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 10330
  • Audio - It's all a big fake.
Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #255 on: 19 Nov 2022, 06:19 pm »
Interesting, I wonder if it is due to the fact that the wrap around effect happens much more quickly on a comparatively thin baffle on the X3's as the tunnel of the H frame design has to delay the cancelation effect due to the length front to back ? and not having a servo system has got to play a big roll.

I thought Clayton went back to all passive and ditched the powered woofer ?? thought I read that somewhere..

It's more a matter of swept volume.  The dual 12's have more surface area than the single 15, and they have WAY MORE peak to peak excursion.  They produce a LOT more bass than the X series speakers. 

howburger

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 33
Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #256 on: 21 Nov 2022, 09:13 pm »
I’m no expert, but I have a 4x15” Infinite baffle sub with non servo drivers. When I have them EQ’d fairly flat to 10 hz. there is lower extension but these frequencies in music are harmonics not fundamentals. It robs more amp. power and does not add any of the “punch you may be looking for. Not only that but with the Fletcher-Munson curve, you are probably drowning out some of the lowest frequencies at lower DB level anyway. Try the 20 hz. setting. Add that to the increasing cancellation of the omnidirectional lowest frequencies and you may inch closer to what I perceive your problem to be. As for the buzzing, I don’t know if the Ryhmic Amps have 3 prong plugs or not, but, if they do, try a cheater plug and see if the buzz disappears. 🤷‍♀️

dallaire1

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 244
Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #257 on: 21 Nov 2022, 11:22 pm »
I have even run them at 28hz low damping to get more headroom.

howburger

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 33
Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #258 on: 22 Nov 2022, 12:28 am »
I didn't  go back through to see what medium you are using for music. If you have Roon, use your room response graph and use Roon's parametric EQ and subtract out the big peaks and try using no gain to achieve more headroom.

dallaire1

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 244
Re: OB SUBS FINALLY WITH SPATIAL M3
« Reply #259 on: 22 Nov 2022, 10:44 am »
Qobuz, no roon. Peaks in new room are not to bad. Didn't even implement single band parametric on sub amp yet.