[azryan]

Jman,

I would hope that we don't have to use the "F" word while discussing things.

As this is the 6th page of an obscure technical audio forum, I seriously doubt any children are reading this. Maybe there's an AC rule against dropping F bombs but I don't see it as any problem otherwise.

Esp. since jackman has been making what I feel are probably the most clear and logical posts in trying to stop the flames and stick to the technical issues -which I think everyone should want  to see happen?

a) The speaker cabinet is as bad as the white van speaker. I don't know whether or not this is true because I have not seen white van speakers but I do know that the cabinet of the 626R I had, had very little vibration when played at high volume.

After rereading the post on Danny's website, the tone is different from the other modders out there. Steve at Empirical isn't calling the Electrocompaniet ECD-1 the equivalent of "White Van" speakers.

Danny did not make generalities like you are saying zybar.

tkp, Danny was in fact referring specifically to actual speakers (Dahlton I believe the brand was?). Speakers sold from ‘white van’ guys.

He posted specific measurements of these speakers maybe a year ago on his web site. No one was upset at what he found. They’re probably still there for you to see.

He now related them to 'specific' things he found in doing the same tests to the vmps speaker that were brought to him. Note- he said he did this stuff in front of the speaker’s owner too.

Sine your 626R's I assume are the same cabinet type as the ones Danny has been asked to improve upon I wonder if you've even put your hand on the side of the cabinet when you are playing something with bass?

If the panels are 5/8" MDF and unbraced as the ones Danny was handed were then you should feel strong vibrations. There's just no way for this not to be true.

b) The parts used in the crossover was the cheapest of their kind. I know this is not true.

Saying 'THE cheapest' does seem like an easily debatable point. Is there any chance he was just meaning that they're really very cheap cost and being human didn't word that perfectly? He did post what he feels are the exact costs so not like he's not backing his comments up.

I suppose if even cheaper parts are found then he'll technically be wrong, but I honestly don't think this is the real relevant point.

None of this was suppose to be made public though so this is all very sad to see.

c) Commenting on the ribbon panel PCB and unsightly screw end exposure without understanding the reason why they were that way.

 
The reason it's there doesn't change his impression of how it looks. He's far from the first to comment on the looks of vmps and he has the right to.

I've seen vmps owners cover this exposed green PCB board section and nuts/bolts with electrical tape.

It could be made to look better for a small speaker this costly IMO.

[zybar]

AZryan,

Here is the direct words from the webpage:

The only speaker I have ever seen that was worse than this in all my years in audio was some speakers sold from the backs of White vans.

The fit and finish on the White van speakers were better.

Well I think it is fair for me to say what I said.

BTW, it has already been discussed repeatedly that earlier versions of the VMPS speakers didn't have the best fit and finish.  Since this has been addressed by VMPS, what is the point in rehasing this.

How about taking some pics of the current shipping model?  You know, the ones that look like this:





George

[tkp]

I did put my hand on the cabinet of the 626R while playing some low  bass note but I did not notice any more vibration than any other speakers I owned.  Even the marble 9.0 vibrate a bit when playing low bass note.  On the other hand, my pair had extra sound coat so I do not know whether or not the standard version would vibrate.

I don't see any thing wrong with Danny offering mod.  However, I do hope all modders would keep their view neutral when when disecting a competitor products.   Uncalled for comments should be kept at minimum.

[ctviggen]

I was interested in GR Research speakers for a while -- I think they're an interesting design and relatively inexpensive, particularly if you do the work yourself.  However, after seeing Danny's comments in this (and other posts), I'd never buy from him.  There's no reason to say that the speakers use "the cheapest parts imaginable" (and I'm paraprashing instead of going back and looking at the original post).  That's simply inexusable, regardless of whether you believe it to be true or not.  And you can never assume in this day that anything you say isn't going to be released, especially when you deal over the Internet.  I mean just keep this stuff to yourself, say that you think you can offer an upgrade, and offer the upgrade.  There's a big difference between "I think I can make these better" and "These are crap; therefore, I can make them better."  The latter just makes you sound like a childish whiner, even if it's true.  In my opinion, the best people in business are those who prove themselves through action or products and not words.  Whenever someone says something, particularly that goes against a competitor, I simply don't believe it.

[azryan]

I still think other things he said made his comments more specific than you're showing zybar.

Also, are all current 626R cabinets now made by MLS? I thought it was an upcharge 'option'?

Note-Danny did also say that it's a good thing that MLS is making those new cabinets for vmps so I think a compliment to vmps and freely admitting that new option does exist.

I think too it was overboard for you to post pics of those MLS cabinets though but just my opinion based on the fact that the pics of the poor quality of the 626 cabinets Danny was handed were not posted here (and not meant to be posted anywhere public).

tkp,

It's hard to believe you feel unbraced 5/8" wall MDF doesn't vibrate much more (if any more at all) than solid marble cabinets.

Adding a paper-thin layer of soundcoat shouldn't be able to make that diff. either IMO and the ones Danny had gotten seem to have that same 'soundcoat' applied.

[John Casler]

I think too it was overboard for you to post pics of those MLS cabinets though but just my opinion based on the fact that the pics of the poor quality of the 626 cabinets Danny was handed were not posted here (and not meant to be posted anywhere public).

Again for informational purposes:

Here is a picture of the "exact" cabinet in question taken by me since I owned them for over a year

[zybar]

I still think other things he said made his comments more specific than you're showing zybar.

Also, are all current 626R cabinets now made by MLS? I thought it was an upcharge option?

Note-Danny did also say that it's a good thing that MLS is making those new cabinets for vmps so I think a compliment to vmps and frrely admitting that that option does exist.

I think too it was overboard for you to post pics of those MLS cabinets though but just my opinion since the pics of the poor quality of the 626 cabinets Danny was handed were not posted here.

I quoted Danny's webpage...go there and read it yourself.

It is not an upcharge to get the MLS cabinets.  Only certain models are being made by MLS (626 is one of them).  BTW, my RM 40's weren't made by MLS and the cabinet work is very good (I have the Cherry finish and they were purchased at the end of 2003).

Well the pics and graphs are out.  If Danny truly didn't want them out, he shouldn't have given it out in the first place.  I personally think that was just a way of later on saying "I never released them myself".

Yes, I am a VMPS owner and yes I am defending VMPS to a point.  I think that by having open and accurate discussions everybody benefits.  I just don't think that was happening here.

Lastly, those who follow my posts know I haven't been shy about bringing up issues with VMPS products.  I don't blindly follow Brian or any manufacturer.  At the end of the day, I am looking out for my best interests - which is getting the best sound possible from the gear I purchase.

George

[tkp]

I would like to clarify that the marble 9.0 has the most innert cabinet that I have ever owned.  The 626R, while not as innert as the marble 9.0, does not vibrate any more than speakers with MDF cabinet that I owned to date.

[EProvenzano]

That is a very nice picture John....
However not exactly the type of picture I'd like to see if I were judging the build quality of a speaker  

I know that VMPS has never been touted as having even 'average' quality cabinets. However, this is totally unacceptable.  I was shocked to see that Danny could fit a pencil in a gap between the woofer and the cabinet    

...how much was the difference in price between a 626R kit and a fully assembled pair any ways??? IMO, this cabinet isn't worth 50 bucks.

These are all things I've suspected of VMPS and I'm personally glad that some people are showing us the truth. About 3 years ago I turned away from VMPS because I could never get a straight answer from BC about quality and parts...no regrets.

EP

[Danny Richie]

Many of you guys have had valid complaints about my comments in my physical assessment of the speakers.

Even though I was quite surprised by what I found and felt that my views would only be given privately to a few people that were interest in an upgrade, I should have keep my own impressions out of it.

Editing has been made to the uploaded information omitting personal comments.

My apologies to any or all that I may have offended.

I had no intention that this info be made public or be posted on various forums.

I can't believe this has been made into such a big issue and that so many people have responded.

Let's end this personal debate and see if what I do with these is worth the effort.

On to one of the few real questions. Thank you Marbles.

Just curious, since I like having the adjustability that these variable L-pads
provide, can you recommend any others that you feel are better?

There are high quality selector switches available that can be used. You can then put high quality resistors on each leg. It will shift the impedance around though. Slight changes may be fine.

I will avoid the personal issues and not get drawn into the mud, but this comment is not about me, and I take issue with it.

And the passive aggressive apologizing guy sounds like a real car wreck in so many ways.

Chris is as nice a guy as you will ever meet. He is well educated (two masters degrees), and has a very good ear for music. Don't let his post fool you if it has. He's a sharp guy.

[tkp]

"There are high quality selector switches available that can be used. You can then put high quality resistors on each leg. It will shift the impedance around though. Slight changes may be fine. "

Danny,

How many position will the high quality switch needs for proper adjustment?  I had the thought of doing the same thing on my pair of RM40s for awhile but I don't know how many positions would require to keep the increment small enough so I can hit the desired value just like with a continuous pots.

[Andrikos]

"There are high quality selector switches available that can be used. You can then put high quality resistors on each leg. It will shift the impedance around though. Slight changes may be fine. "

Danny,

How many position will the high quality switch needs for proper adjustment?  I had the thought of doing the same thing on my pair of RM40s for awhile but I don't know how many positions would require to keep the increment small enough so I can hit the desired value just like with a continuous pots.

Pots are going the way of the Dodo bird as well as leaky, noisy capacitors and coils for passive crossovers.
The future is active and the future is now!

[Marbles]

"There are high quality selector switches available that can be used. You can then put high quality resistors on each leg. It will shift the impedance around though. Slight changes may be fine. "

Danny,

How many position will the high quality switch needs for proper adjustment?  I had the thought of doing the same thing on my pair of RM40s for awhile but I don't know how many positions would require to keep the increment small enough so I can hit the desired value just like with a continuous pots.

TKP, at least 24 you would think, more would be better.  As a complete new "B"  my first thought would be to use something like mono Elma or Seiden volume controls.  Then I thought that even with the cheaper Elma's it would still be about $500/pair with 4 switches at $100 each and the 96 resisters, not to mention the time for all that soldering.

Danny do you have any specific switches you would use and starting and stopping values for the resisters?  Thanks

[Danny Richie]

tpk, Thanks for asking a good question.

How many position will the high quality switch needs for proper adjustment? I had the thought of doing the same thing on my pair of RM40s for awhile but I don't know how many positions would require to keep the increment small enough so I can hit the desired value just like with a continuous pots.

I have some pretty nice Omit switches here that have Silver plated contacts and a 5 position selector. I don't sell them. I have a few here to use.

Using something like this I would figure out what values are needed to get the desired output level first.

Then use a fixed first leg (series) of the L-pad with a high quality resistor. A Mills would be my choice.

Then set the needed value resistor in the center position of the switch for the paralleled leg of the L-pad. Use slightly smaller and slightly larger values to either side of it.

You then have a five position selector switch that will allow output adjustment.

[John B]

Amazing...even more re-design ideas for Brian's speakers.   I'll tell you what, once you guys have got the 626R model all redesigned, with the cabinet just the way you want it, that fancy 5 selector switch and the sophisticated new crossover, please do bring it by my place.  We'll do a little a/b shootout.   Better that then all this posturing going on here.   I've got a group of audiophiles who'll be glad to sit in and give their evalution of the GR-Research modified 626R's vs the real deal.

[Marbles]

Thanks Danny, how much are those switches? Are Mills resisters about $1 each?  5 positions seems kind of few to me, but I've been wrong before.

John, MLS has made the 626R cabinets visually more appealing and better braced.  This SHOULD take care of FUTURE purchases, but I have 4 626R's and am always looking for easy, cheap and noticeable tweaks to my system.  

If we can get some current 626 owners to try this stuff and report back their results, good or bad, I don't see how this could be a bad thing.

Don't forget, tweaks come from everywhere, from Ribbonspeakers removing the toggle switch, as well as other tweaks, to John Casler for his sonic directors et al., to even BC himself and his vitrification tweak.

I DO understand there could be a perception problem because Danny is the messenger, but I'm trying to keep an open mind to all this.

In fact I doubt I will mod my 626's as they are side and surround speakers in my HT, but some of this carries over to the RM40's, like these variable L-pads.  There is a decent chance I could mod the RM40's if people have success modding the 626's.

[azryan]

Marbles,

Do you actually use 24 diff. setting on your L-pads? I’d think you’d mainly have one starting point setting and then maybe slightly change from that one point?

You may not have the SAME starting point as someone else though. That makes this all much trickier.

But what if you were given the ‘starting point’ as the ‘measurably flattest output’ and then if it could be shown that say ~5 steps (using a better signal path) would still make subtle steps in the speakers measured output -even while the steps are more coarse than an L-pad can make?

I'm just thinking out loud, NOT speaking for Danny of course.

I'm feeling if there was a redesign x-over showing a much flatter overall response (as Danny seems to be showing he's in fact just done for the 626R's) that it'd be best to just use the correct resistance to set that output.

No L-pads or switches of any level of quality. Just the correct resistance.

Why would someone want adjustments?

Many of us already know this answer (and certainly not answers I just dismiss at all)...

1). Inevitable room problems.

2). Electronics creating their own ‘sound’

3). The desire to tweak the output to taste (IMO much like how we pick electronics to fit our taste).
               
Now this can get into a big debate over the actual freq. response of the speakers and I want to avoid that.
   
IMO, if you want to counter or alter the output from your electronics (to taste) at the speaker level it might be a better idea to look into electronics that tilt to the sound you’re looking to get.

This subject really comes down I think to the idea of using the L-pads to counter the effects of a room.

If you had a measurably flat speaker and in your room with your equip. you felt you wanted to adjust some element of it's output... don't you feel that while the stock L-pads offer VERY small and LOTS of steps of adjustment.... that the actual VERY broad range they're adjusting is far too coarse to do that?

For example.... the mid planar plays ~166Hz-7kHz.... nothing a room can do no matter how crazy or bad the damage could evenly be countered by adjusting the level of that whole range -as the stock pads do.



If anything, I'd think the best idea might be to just level match the woofer and mid panel and then if anything... add a few settings in addition to a ‘flat output’ for the super tweeter to liven or deaden the very most top end to maybe counter a bit of your room’s and/or your electronic’s live/deadness.

Specific and severe room peaks and dips will only be fixed by treating the room causing that prob. (or the use of a digital room correction program).

Why degrade the speakers trying to counter what they just can’t ever counter?

I’d think correcting the really big dip in the cross between mid planar and super tweeter in the 626's would do so much more than leaving that dip there and trying to adjust a very unflat output with the stock L-pad.

I feel this might very well obviate the need to adjust the super tweeter’s level at all?

I’ve seen many DIY speaker designers that have slightly adjusted the very top end output of their designs due to a request by a rare customer here and there.

I’d think that’d be a good route to go rather than having each and every speaker with a huge adjustment range in both broad midrange and top tweeter octave and a half.

I really hope that's not too harsh what I said. I really want to just keep this about technical issues/opinions relating. Nothing personal.

I just think it all relates to what’s being discussed and to possibly steer or understand the goals of one x-over design vs. another.

[azryan]

John Casler,

In your quote you took from my post you intentionally omitted the rest of my sentence where I wrote "(and not meant to be posted anywhere public)."

That was of course 'key' to my point. I wasn't pleased to see that at all.

[John Casler]

John Casler,

In your quote you took from my post you intentionally omitted the rest of my sentence where I wrote "(and not meant to be posted anywhere public)."

That was of course 'key' to my point. I wasn't pleased to see that at all.

Sorry AZ,

I have edited my post to transmit your complete intent

[Marbles]

Ryan, having a flat FR with a new XO and having the ability to taylor the speaker with a variable L-pad is what I'm going for.

As far as more than 5 resister selections are concerned, the problem is one of increments, obviously the more, the better.  I can't predict what I will have in my system and when I will have it.  A perfect example is when Robert Schult of Ridge Street Audio came by with his new cables.  It sounded a bit bright at first and we could turn the tweeter pot down just a tad and get it to sound better within seconds.

With only two resister choices up, and two down, it really takes luck to get it right quickly and without an operation on the L-pad to change resisters, defeating the whole purpose of it.