Line Force?

JBELT01, Danny Richie and 2 Guests are viewing this topic. Read 14970 times.

emailtim

Re: Line Force?
« Reply #220 on: 18 May 2024, 05:44 pm »
It sure would be nice if it were just about the numbers.

Hi Danny,

They are a strong indicator if we are talking about purity of signal retention (straight copper) versus additive colorations (listening to equipment signatures).

Transducers are the weakest link in today's audio chain. 

I think you have some hands on experience with the newish Purifi drivers, but don't know what your thoughts are on them. 

They appear to have some quality at a steep price and boast low distortion.

Here is a blurb from one of their staffers.

"...  The PTT6.5X is at -80dB (1Amp peak, 1kHz), the new PTT8 is at -90dB and we have prototyped a 6.5 with -100dB.  ..."

Their best transducers (including latest prototypes) fall short of the the rest of the contemporary upstream audio components in a signal chain.  Nowhere near -[240-300]dB or even 130dB.

I would appreciate your honest feedback on all 128-bit and 64-bit up to your favorite DAC, but it would require multi-channels of your favorite DAC to do so. 

Most canned consumer hardware (e.g. DEQX, miniDSP, etc.) do not do this precision of math and are tap limited, thus are not representative of current potential.


NoahH

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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #221 on: 18 May 2024, 09:52 pm »
@emailtim - indeed it can be done. I fully believe that some folks who are smart enough and have spent enough time (decades) on it like Theoretica get there. And I would always be delighted to audition new implementations. But the reality is the DSP based gear I have heard has underperformed simplified electronics in controlled spaces. There is a reason that many of the most-belovee DACs are NOS. Ladder DACs dominate many of the rankings.

But *theory does not matter on this*. Trial different approaches and try for yourself. There is no replacement for experience, and trying different approaches is much of the fun of the hobby.

My best suggestion for anyone new is buy used gear that you can sell at a low loss and try different stuff for a long time.

jmimac351

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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #222 on: 18 May 2024, 10:14 pm »

My best suggestion for anyone new is buy used gear that you can sell at a low loss and try different stuff for a long time.

BINGO!  I did that with DACs (and preamps) and found out what I wanted to know. That issue, for me, is settled.

Now I play with speakers.



Below is how the preamp / DAC mental gymnastics got settled... but the little "secret" is that little black box, by itself, is almost as good.  I did it because I work hard and could, not because I needed to to be happy. 

Buy gear used.  The only "new" I buy are special speakers / speaker parts... if they can't be bought used.  If you buy good stuff, and buy it right... you haven't actually lost the money - it's just value in a different form to have fun with until it needs to change form... like turning it into track tires.

I will say it's important not to skimp on what kind of cardboard you use for housing a test crossover that you're anxious to hear.  :green:


NoahH

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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #223 on: 19 May 2024, 02:00 am »
@jmimac351 - I am also an Ayre guy now.

Danny Richie

Re: Line Force?
« Reply #224 on: Today at 05:18 pm »
Hi Danny,

They are a strong indicator if we are talking about purity of signal retention (straight copper) versus additive colorations (listening to equipment signatures).

Transducers are the weakest link in today's audio chain. 

I think you have some hands on experience with the newish Purifi drivers, but don't know what your thoughts are on them. 

They appear to have some quality at a steep price and boast low distortion.

Here is a blurb from one of their staffers.

"...  The PTT6.5X is at -80dB (1Amp peak, 1kHz), the new PTT8 is at -90dB and we have prototyped a 6.5 with -100dB.  ..."

Their best transducers (including latest prototypes) fall short of the the rest of the contemporary upstream audio components in a signal chain.  Nowhere near -[240-300]dB or even 130dB.

I have worked with their best 6.5" models. They are well made and do a lot well, but like all things there are compromises especially when trying to build one driver that does everything well.

For instance covering bass ranges well typically means a thicker and stiffer cone (more moving mass), longer X-Max capabilities, and a motor design that will maintain linearity over a long range. All of those things compromise performance higher up in frequency. The high moving mass typically means slow or longer settling times. So a woofer playing down low and playing it hard (even cleanly) is going to compromise midrange and higher ranges. This is why we have three way designs.

Our drivers of the same size, have a more limited X-Max, and use a lighter weight cone and have a lighter moving mass. This means they settle faster, sound cleaner, and have a better overall sound. However they will not do as well playing down low.

Quote
I would appreciate your honest feedback on all 128-bit and 64-bit up to your favorite DAC, but it would require multi-channels of your favorite DAC to do so. 

Most canned consumer hardware (e.g. DEQX, miniDSP, etc.) do not do this precision of math and are tap limited, thus are not representative of current potential.

Most of my music catalog involves music that was originally recorded in 16 bit 44.1. So often the best sound can be achieved by a DAC designed to play back at that original level. So higher bit rate DAC's may have little to no advantage. The conversion to analog involves a LOT of other factors. The same is true for higher bit rate DAC's. It isn't about the bit rate, or chip set used. It has MUCH more to do with a LOT of other factors.

And yes the D/A converstion in many of the most known digital filtering divices are fair to poor.

jmimac351

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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #225 on: Today at 09:40 pm »
I have worked with their best 6.5" models. They are well made and do a lot well, but like all things there are compromises especially when trying to build one driver that does everything well.

For instance covering bass ranges well typically means a thicker and stiffer cone (more moving mass), longer X-Max capabilities, and a motor design that will maintain linearity over a long range. All of those things compromise performance higher up in frequency. The high moving mass typically means slow or longer settling times. So a woofer playing down low and playing it hard (even cleanly) is going to compromise midrange and higher ranges. This is why we have three way designs.

Our drivers of the same size, have a more limited X-Max, and use a lighter weight cone and have a lighter moving mass. This means they settle faster, sound cleaner, and have a better overall sound. However they will not do as well playing down low.


I am experiencing what you are describing right now.  The Scan-Speak 8545 in my Merlin VSM plays low... makes great bass... what you did with the speaker made it sound better than it ever has.  As I think you know, as I have shared with Hobbs... just because I could, I put the M165NQ driver into the VSM. The baffle width between it and the NX-Studio is the same, the efficiency between the drivers is he same, etc.  It was worth a shot to learn something, and boy have I learned something.  The midrange clarity from the M165NQ is superior to the SS 8545 driver; however, the M165NQ does not play as low - just like you referenced in your example.  But the thing is, in the ported enclosure of the VSM (which I have not seen anyone else try / reference M165NQ in a ported application), the bass from the M165NQ is not "weak".  It makes good bass, although not as low as the 8545.

And then the choice between the 2... well, I have / can buy more low end for a speaker via a sub.  I cannot make the 8545 have the midrange clarity of the M165NQ.  For me, I'll take the clarity and add some low end, if needed.  What I am experiencing is why I'm bothering to even do it... to actually hear / experience the difference and more fully understand the "Why?".  There is no doubt in my mind the strategy you're using is the way to go... use the proper tool for the job whether "the job" is midrange or low end.  This little test has also helped me hear and anticipate the clarity I'd experience with the Studio, Otica, or NX-Treme in my room, with my gear.  It's one thing to hear your NX-Treme in your room / your gear, but now the experience has really been driven home.

I'll add this though, I think a lot of people could be very pleased with the M165NQ in a proper, floorstanding, ported enclosure.  Not everyone needs / wants response well into 20Hz.  People have different recipes for what their definition of "Fun" is, and I think by providing different options, but also educating the customer about what the "best" is, people can make choices that are best for their space, budget, goals.  As they learn / experience more, they can move up the line.  I'm going to continue playing with the enclosure of the VSM to get the volume / port alignment exactly to spec Hobbs provided for the M165NQ in ported cabinet (if there is enough space inside the VSM, which I don't know for sure yet). 

Bottom line, I'm experiencing your strategy for why the drivers are designed the way they are, and why the choices are made.  I am also hearing that the M165NQ is an absolutely exceptional driver.  My ears are telling me your entire strategy is right, but you already know that.   :green:

jmimac351

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Re: Line Force?
« Reply #226 on: Today at 09:52 pm »
@jmimac351 - I am also an Ayre guy now.

Cool!  I am an unapologetic fanboy.  A lot of people go thru this game buying / selling gear, only to still not find happiness / contentment, and never realize why they can't find satisfaction.  I think it's because they buy and sell gear that is essentially very similar in design.  I think the Ayre stuff is designed differently that most other gear in existence, and I happen to love what it does.  Anyone can feel free to reach out to me and I'll tell you what I think I know, and why I use it.  If you haven't already, call Ayre and speak to Jake.  He's a great guy and will lookup the history of whatever you own.

Besides Ayre, I'd like to hear Dartzeel stuff.  They also use the Diamond circuit / no feedback.  I've already spent more on equipment than I ever thought I would, so I doubt that will ever happen.  It's nice when you do and are completely satisfied, and content.  Being content is something I pray for all the time... it's a Blessing when it visits you.

Danny Richie

Re: Line Force?
« Reply #227 on: Today at 11:37 pm »
Quote
I am experiencing what you are describing right now.  The Scan-Speak 8545 in my Merlin VSM plays low... makes great bass... what you did with the speaker made it sound better than it ever has.  As I think you know, as I have shared with Hobbs... just because I could, I put the M165NQ driver into the VSM. The baffle width between it and the NX-Studio is the same, the efficiency between the drivers is he same, etc.  It was worth a shot to learn something, and boy have I learned something.  The midrange clarity from the M165NQ is superior to the SS 8545 driver; however, the M165NQ does not play as low - just like you referenced in your example.  But the thing is, in the ported enclosure of the VSM (which I have not seen anyone else try / reference M165NQ in a ported application), the bass from the M165NQ is not "weak".  It makes good bass, although not as low as the 8545.

Those two drivers also need very different crossovers. The 8545 needed a third order filter and a notch filter (six parts), while the M165NQ needs only a second order filter (two parts). :-)