[richidoo]

Thanks Steve... just joshin ya!  Good weekend to you too!!

[jackman]

You guys may want to do some research on the "PLACEBO EFFECT"...

I believe speaker motors change slightly (okay, maybe some more than slightly) over the initial break-in period.  They are motors, and things like spiders and surrounds can loosen up with use, especially when drivers are new.  I don't think they continue to change in an audible way after hundreds of hours of use.  The "changes" you are hearing after this point (if you haven't changed other things in your system or room) are most likely taking place in your head as you get used to the sound of your system. 

Sometimes people hear what they want to hear.  If you are convinced those new caps will sound better after 1000 hours and you are at hour 500 or those new speakers will finally "bloom" or "refine" after 500 hours and you are currently at hour 200 or so, you may be experiencing the placebo effect, hearing what you THINK you should hear. 

Lots of BS and snake-oil in this hobby.  Thankfully, there are some good manufacturers (like many of the ones on this site) who are reasonable and not subscribers to the flim-flam side of audio.  If you believe you can hear subtle variances at specific frequency levels and have no measuring equipment (your Radio Shack meter is probably not going to cut it in this area) or means to verify your suspicion, and feel your system sounds noticeably better after hour 1000 (compared to hour 999), keep on dreaming and drinking the Kool-Aid.  Fortunately, you will never be alone because audioland has no shortage of people who share the delusion.  It's funny until you wake up one day and find the "CLEVER LITTLE CLOCK" resting your nightstand....



Cheers,

Jack

[neekomax]

You guys may want to do some research on the "PLACEBO EFFECT"...
If you believe you can hear subtle variances at specific frequency levels and have no measuring equipment (your Radio Shack meter is probably not going to cut it in this area) or means to verify your suspicion, and feel your system sounds noticeably better after hour 1000 (compared to hour 999), keep on dreaming and drinking the Kool-Aid.

Hmmm, ok, no problem with any of that except for a couple of things. It is not a big deal to hear more or less of a certain band of frequencies within a recording, and be able to roughly identify them. I'm positive you can do it as well  . You make it sound like people are claiming to walk on water or turn lead into gold, f'r chrissakes.

Also, I don't recall seeing anyone on this thread, or in the referenced material, insist that speakers changed significantly at 1000 hrs.

Your arguments are relatively sound; sounder still without the bombast and hyperbole, IMHO.   

[jackman]

Hey Neeko,

I'm not picking on anyone, just pointing out some of the BS you can expect to hear in this hobby.  Will stay on topic but keep your eye open for any post in which the amature guy modifies a piece of equipment, like when he replaces the caps with super expensive exotic ones (in an amp, speakers, preamp, etc.).  99.9% of the time the equipment is "completely transformed" to a whole new level and he is suddenly hearing instruments and separation of instruments in familiar songs he never heard before - in music pieces they have listened to for years.  Or, they call their wife into the room, a non-audiophile of course, and she is blown away by the improvement their new tweak or break-in helped them achieve.   Whenver I hear these stories, I kind've suspect the wife is just saying that because she doesn't want the dude to spend any more $$$ on $500 power cords or magic conditioners.  Just sayin...

Just keep in mind, there are ACTUAL people who are convinced the Clever Little Clock (or magic beans) from Machina Dynamica actually improves the sound of their system.  The mind is a powerful thing...

Cheers,

J

[decal]

Just keep in mind, there are ACTUAL people who are convinced the Clever Little Clock (or magic beans) from Machina Dynamica actually improves the sound of their system.

Surely you're not suggesting the good folks at MD are trying to deceive us,are you? 

[planet10]

...that speakers changed significantly at 1000 hrs ...

I don't know about significantly, but a designer of a number of notable speakers has said that some of the spiders he has designed take 1500 hrs to fully break-in.

dave

[Photon46]

Sometimes people hear what they want to hear.  If you are convinced those new caps will sound better after 1000 hours and you are at hour 500 or those new speakers will finally "bloom" or "refine" after 500 hours and you are currently at hour 200 or so, you may be experiencing the placebo effect, hearing what you THINK you should hear. 
n

One speaker I (and most other owners of same would agree I think) that does take hundreds, if not thousands of hours, to fully break in is a big Magneplanar. Those large panels of stretched mylar take many hours of flexing to settle down. I do understand you are referring to a greater level of change than I'm talking about here though.

[*Scotty*]

As far back as 1986 my Magnepan dealer told me that it would take 3 months of beating on the woofer panels in my MG IIIs with bass heavy music to loosen them up to the point that they would equal the sound of the floor models in the bass. I have had similar experiences with large planer magnetic tweeters like the RT2C_A used in my TETONS.
 I have observed an interesting phenomena in my TETON GS HTs concerning their bass drivers. Dayton Audio Titanic Mk II subwoofer drivers were used for the frequencies below 150Hz in the speakers. The system is efficient enough that the two 12in woofers per side don't use much of their excursion when playing music. The woofers are rated at 350watts each with a linear Xmax of 18.9mm, XMech of 24mm. and an Fs of 22.18Hz.
 The speaker system is a vented design and the box does most of the work below 30Hz. which limits the excursion required from the woofers at low frequencies.
 To maintain the speaker systems low frequency extension I have had to hit it with 20Hz sine waves at 95dB at the listening position for about 20 minutes every six months. The speaker sees around 2 watts RMS input on average program material.
I usually don't listen above 85dB on average. Peaks could be much louder depending on the material. Apparently the spider is designed to stand up to high power input at 20Hz and not wear out prematurely. It looks like I am not putting sufficient power into them on a regular enough basis to even keep them loosened up.
 About that never to be sufficiently damned "Clever Clock",the thing injects noise into the AC power line and radiates RF into the environment. It's a sad commentary on the state of things in this hobby when more contamination of your AC line is perceived to be a good thing. I damned sure wouldn't have it on my night stand irradiating my brain for a solid eight hours every night.
Scotty
 

[*Scotty*]

Off topic.
In direct response to Jackmans comment regarding capacitors transforming the sound of a loudspeaker. I first ran into this sort of improvement over twenty years ago when I helped a friend change out the stock caps in his MGIIs. We used some custom caps from a line a friend of mine was having built for him by Reliable Capacitor aka RelCap. They were tin foil and and polystyrene film construction at 150volts..
 It only took two of them so it wasn't a big investment in time or money. The RelCaps replaced a flattened oval metalized mylar cap with steel leads. Gains were had in dynamics, high frequency extension and transparency.
 They also imaged a lot better. The size of the sound stage increased. Lateral images now extended well past the edges of the loudspeakers. Image height reached above the tops of the speakers and the sensation of depth also showed a marked improvement reaching well back beyond the wall behind the speakers.
 The speakers were modded one at time and listening comparisons were made between the two loudspeakers. At that time my friend was having a number of different capacitor designs made, all of which sounded slightly different from one another. The object was to use a cap whose sound complimented my buddys system.
Scotty

[Steve]

Had a friend who put a kit together (approx $1500.00) using two Scanspeak carbon fiber 7" drivers and tweeter. Closed box design. I listened to it just assembled in my listening area and it sounded quite good. Very tight bass, nice transparency. He took the speakers home.

About a month later he called me and said the bass was not good. He brought them over and I again tested them in my test rig. Talk about change. The bass was so bloated, masking alot of musical information. Very poor sounding, very bass heavy/sloppy.

He tried filling the cabinet with fiberglass, no help. He then inserted lead sheets to the bottom/top/front/back, hoping to stop what might be wood resonant problems, no help. He then installed insulation as well and still no help. He finally put them in the closet and uses another speaker.

Cheers.

[*Scotty*]

Steve,the speakers might be salvaged by turning them into an aperiodic design. It is almost impossible to have the box volume off so far that it wouldn't work as an aperiodic enclosure. The bass can be tuned sound the way you want by varying the amount polyfill used in the variovent. I would start by setting up the box internally with the same amount damping in it that it had when it first sounded good and then start tuning the variovent for the best sounding bass.
Scotty

[Steve]

Steve,the speakers might be salvaged by turning them into an aperiodic design. It is almost impossible to have the box volume off so far that it wouldn't work as an aperiodic enclosure. The bass can be tuned sound the way you want by varying the amount polyfill used in the variovent. I would start by setting up the box internally with the same amount damping in it that it had when it first sounded good and then start tuning the variovent for the best sounding bass.
Scotty

The volume is that far off. There was also no damping material recommended, as far as I know. The Scanspeaks are controlled more by electrical parameters than mechanical parameters, so a lower output Z amp would probably be preferred, or better designed tube amp.  If I had my way I would redesign the speaker cabinets for that particular output Z. I would not mind a ported design.

I guess the real point of my story is that drivers do break in, some more than others. 

Cheers.   

[jackman]

Such as?

I'm not going to pick on anyone but I will say there are too many urban legends in this hobby and too much BS. 

A guy from a local audio society came to my house to audition some speakers I  had on loan, a few years ago.  He went on and on about how the local audiofool (not going to name them) group spent an afternoon evaluating the effects of putting bags of sand and buck-shot on their mega$$$ CDP.  He said the material in the bags made the CDP sound "drastically" different.  Each material had its own characteristic sound.  Sand had looser bass and lead buckshot had solid imaging but was sterile, etc.  He said a mixture of 50/50 sand/buckshot was ideal and sounded best.

I've never tried this test and do not intend to.  There is no sand-bag or bag of buckshot/sand on any of my gear, now or ever.  All I could think of when the guy was recounting the story is a room full of pathetic tossers who haven't been laid in a decade going off about the improvements their bag of mixed "stuff" was having on the sound they were hearing. 

To these guys, achieving good sound was a mixture of voodoo, mis-information and lots of $$$ to throw at a system.  Okay, sand and buckshot are cheap but the CDP was a very high end model in an expensive system.  Unfortunately, there are too many people like this in our hobby.  I'm not saying break in is complete crap.  It does technically occur but not to the extent many would have you believe.  I'll even agree that caps can sound different after a while (although I have not experienced this first hand).  I'm just saying the differences are not as great as many would have you believe and I've never heard speakers that sounded bad at 100 hours suddenly sound great at 1500 hours. 

The mind is a powerful thing and I would not discount the placebo effect.  People hear what they want to  hear or what they think they are hearing.  "Break-in" are happening, but it's most likely happening in the "ears" of the people or at least the way they perceive the sound.   Other things like room and system interaction have a much greater impact on sound. 

[*Scotty*]

jackman what gear are you using,and what if any tweaks have you tried that worked?
It's certainly reasonable to presume that a well engineered CDP wouldn't need added mass to control vibrations effect on the transport mechanism.
Scotty

[werd]

jackman what gear are you using,and what if any tweaks have you tried that worked?
It's certainly reasonable to presume that a well engineered CDP wouldn't need added mass to control vibrations effect on the transport mechanism.
Scotty

I know, he goes off about it and yet doesn't understand what they were doing?. Typical veteran response from those that are cemented in the limits of their low rez gear. They don't hear it so ergo its voodoo.

[srb]

Pathetic tossers.

[*Scotty*]

werd,you are making unwarranted assumptions. Until we KNOW what he has we can't put anything he says into context. We have no way knowing where he is coming from.
Scotty

[neekomax]

I know, he goes off about it and yet doesn't understand what they were doing?. Typical veteran response from those that are cemented in the limits of their low rez gear. They don't hear it so ergo its voodoo.

Does one's gear need to be of a certain caliber in order to have a valid opinion? In that case, mine's probably not worth much  .

OTOH,

Jack, you do allow that speaker break-in is a real thing, but you seem to be annoyed that people find it worth discussing and comparing experiences. Maybe you're right, maybe there's not much to it, but it sounds like other people are saying they have seen/heard otherwise.

I, for one, appreciate your perspective on it, because it's interesting to hear all sides. But you're probably better off taking issue with specific assertions that you disagree with, rather then dismissing folks as tossers pulling shennanigans. Just sayin'.

[jackman]

jackman what gear are you using,and what if any tweaks have you tried that worked?
It's certainly reasonable to presume that a well engineered CDP wouldn't need added mass to control vibrations effect on the transport mechanism.
Scotty

Did you read my comments?  I agree that a well engineered CDP wound not need a sand bag or bag or crap on top of it to sound good. My comments were meant to highlight some of the bs in this hobby.

These guys not only concluded a bag of stuff made their player sound better, they concluded a certain mix sounded superb. It like a wanker version of the three little pigs.

[werd]

werd,you are making unwarranted assumptions. Until we KNOW what he has we can't put anything he says into context. We have no way knowing where he is coming from.
Scotty

Well if this had been one post on it,but its been kind of a theme with him on this thread so i don't see how finding out his gear is going make any difference. His context is well established on the topic and what he thinks.