Panasonic SA-XR50

Grayson73 · « **Reply #60 on:** 20 Apr 2004, 10:08 pm »

Quote from: dwk

It's done differently in different units, and is the main difference between the 25 and 45 (I though this had all been covered before....). The XR10 and XR45 appear to have variable-output switch-mode supplies, which provide about ~20dB of level control. These units reduce volume by lowering the output voltage of the PS. Once the PS is at it's lowest output, the units then use digital attenuation on the input word to achieve volume control. On the 25, there is only a fixed power supply, so all volume control is done in the digital domain.[/code]

How does this affect sound quality? Also, do you know whether the XR50 has variable or fixed?

armstrg3 · « **Reply #61 on:** 20 Apr 2004, 10:18 pm »

Anyone interested in the SA XR10? I know where there are at least three available for sale. Brand New.

ABEX · « **Reply #62 on:** 20 Apr 2004, 11:26 pm »

I am wondering weather we are seeing the pormotional outlook of ,hey it has less but gives more or better sound which is what Klipsch did after taking over Aragon.

I know it is a different scenerio ,but It always makes me watch to see what cos. do when it comes to promoting their products.

I would have liked to have seen a better PS and other things which the 45 unit fell short on. Sharp is now promoting their new Digital amps as being on par with SOTA amps.

I do not think I would pay over $1K for a digital amp in stock form unless it had a good analog section and had good audiophile\grade parts.It is one of the reasons these things are so affordable.The manfs are able to put them out for very little cost.

Just thinking!

AphileEarlyAdopter · « **Reply #63 on:** 20 Apr 2004, 11:30 pm »

dwk..sorry you had to repeat the volume control specifics..I do remember now. I just breezed through the 5076 specs..it has 8 bits for volume control and I did not see anything on the power supply. Probably Wayne can confirm whether the power supply has variable out.
I dont want to bias Wayne's opinion on this so I will not take a guess on how this should sound sonically vs xr25 or xr45.
I will wait for him to come out with judgement soon

Grayson is the one who is having fun now

..while I deliberate on the purchase of this over the xr70 !!

dwk · « **Reply #64 on:** 20 Apr 2004, 11:49 pm »

Quote from: Wayne1

The SA-XR50 does use the TAS5076.

The SA-XR45 uses the TAS5036A not the 5012. I do not know for certain what the SA-XR25 or 10 uses.

Argh, that's what I get for posting from work. I think the 5012 is a 2-channel modulator, and I think that's used in the XR10. The 5036 is a 6-channel unit, and is in the 25 and 45 - substitute '5036' for all occurences of '5012' in my previous post.....

Grayson73 · « **Reply #65 on:** 21 Apr 2004, 03:38 pm »

Quote from: Wayne1

The SA-XR50 does use the TAS5076.

The SA-XR45 uses the TAS5036A not the 5012. I do not know for certain what the SA-XR25 or 10 uses.

How do these chips compare and how do they affect sound quality?

BenF · « **Reply #66 on:** 21 Apr 2004, 04:37 pm »

http://focus.ti.com/docs/search/paramsearch.jhtml?tfsection=param_table&templateId=5275&showAssociated=false&familyId=519

BenF · « **Reply #67 on:** 21 Apr 2004, 04:45 pm »

I hope everyone who reads this has by now understood that better specs do not equal better sound quality. There is a lot to get right in any recorded music playback device. Not only that, but taste varies as well.

I expect that TI wants to constantly improve the quality of their chips, as long as they can make money to stay in business while they do this and while there is a market for the new stuff. Panasonic has the same tradeoff in building these amplifiers and all their products as well.

The proof is in the listening by discerning ears. Then, do you like it? That's why there are so many products on the market - so many different tastes, preferences, needs, ears, etc.

Thanks. Ben

AphileEarlyAdopter · « **Reply #68 on:** 21 Apr 2004, 05:34 pm »

Ben,
How did you come to this conclusion, based on the above URL ?
From the URL, it looks like cost is decreasing and specs are improving.
And the Panasonic seems to be using the chips with a good price/performance value.
Not just TI, the pursuit of technology, is to make things affordable for everybody (unlike high-end audio

). I think this is a very good idea, nothing wrong there. They do need to make profits to stay in business. You and me are also engaged in a similar activity.
Panasonic might have cut some corners in their design. I think, they reduce the parts/partnering circuitry as soon as they get a better chip set. But what can you expect when something retails for less than $300 ?
It is only companies like TI which are pursuing the progress of technology .High-end audio is only going around in circles, with various 'flavor of the month' amp/preamp/player. Maybe, some push the limits of available technology with better materials/execution.
Digital amplification like Equibit from TI and Tripath are real progress in Audio Technology.

hardwired · « **Reply #69 on:** 21 Apr 2004, 06:47 pm »

Quote

The SA-XR25 and 45 use 3) TI TAS5182X1 chips in the audio section to supply the switching mosfets. The SA-XR50 only uses 2 of the TI TAS5182 chips. For the front channels there are quite a few small chips and surface mounted components in place of a single TAS5182. The switching mosfets are the same in all channels as are the output filters.

So one would surmise that Panasonic thought there was a performance gain by going to discrete H-bridge drivers for the front channels, otherwise if it was cost they would have used the discrete implementation for the surround channels rather than the 5182's.

Or possibly it was necessary or beneficial for A/B switching of the fronts. Can the XR50 drive both A & B speaker outputs simultaneously?

Beatles, can you get your Panny engineer buddy to comment on the reason(s) why the different output stage on the fronts. And what exactly was compromised on the XR50 vs the XR45 and XR10 beside the power supply?

Can we expect the XR70 not to have these cost cutting measures. One would think the XR70 would be performance oriented to showcase DVD-Audio over their new HDMI interface - no?

groovetube66 · « **Reply #70 on:** 21 Apr 2004, 06:49 pm »

Quote from: Beatles

DBX???????? Remastering??????? You really DON'T have good ears do you. Jesus aren't there "audiophiles' here?

Actually my ears work fine, and my brain does too in that I can tell when something sounds better without letting emotion or nostalgia interfere. I used a nice Fisher stereo tube amp for years before recently discovering the Panasonic XR series receivers. Anyway...

When you consider the lousy dynamic range of some albums the DBX 3BX does a nice job of bringing out some detail IF you use it judiciously (lightly). On an old Tony Bennett album on CBS (from the 60s) with the DBX unit in the loop ol' Tony's voice and the nice horn punches are lifted out of the muddle of the mix - you can understand the lyrics better and hear that brassy detail.

Remaster Mode 4 might be a nice substitute for having another thing in the signal path.

Beatles · « **Reply #71 on:** 21 Apr 2004, 07:43 pm »

Quote from: groovetube66

Actually my ears work fine, and my brain does too in that I can tell when something sounds better without letting emotion or nostalgia interfere. I used a nice Fisher stereo tube amp for years before recently discovering the Panasonic XR series receivers. Anyway...

When you consider the lousy dynamic range of some albums the DBX 3BX does a nice job of bringing out some detail IF you use it judiciously (lightly). On an old Tony Bennett album on CBS (from the 60s) with the DBX unit in the loop ol ...

No the DBX completely OBSCURES detail Good God man.

groovetube66 · « **Reply #72 on:** 21 Apr 2004, 08:35 pm »

Actually if you understand the settings and use it very conservatively it can work nicely. I don't disagree it can sound bad when overused - subtle detail can get lost. But sometimes just a little expansion can work wonders. If you don't like the 3BX then that's fine -- just lay off judging other people's experiences, ears, or whatever.

groovetube66 · « **Reply #73 on:** 21 Apr 2004, 08:48 pm »

But it is there... In the mastering process of an LP the quiet passages are boosted to get them above groove noise and the loud passages are reduced to allow proper tracking by the stylus. Units like the 3BX just make an attempt to push the ends back out to approximate original dynamic range. It ain't perfect, and as I said you can overdue it, but the information IS there. 'Nuff said.

AphileEarlyAdopter · « **Reply #74 on:** 21 Apr 2004, 09:48 pm »

Now Beatles..okay DBX is bad..people who use that are not real audiophiles

(just kidding guys). I asked you earlier as well - did you really account for the breakin of XR50, when you rated it below the xr45 and xr25 ? Were they using the same digital coax, power supply, power cords ? I am thinking it should sound better than xr25 and probably not beat xr45, but since I dont have any of them, I am just speculating. Since you own all the equipment, you could be a useful resource to this board, if you could provide valuable and detailed insights on the performance of these various devices.

Beatles · « **Reply #75 on:** 21 Apr 2004, 10:03 pm »

Quote from: groovetube66

But it is there... In the mastering process of an LP the quiet passages are boosted to get them above groove noise and the loud passages are reduced to allow proper tracking by the stylus. Units like the 3BX just make an attempt to push the ends back out to approximate original dynamic range. It ain't perfect, and as I said you can overdue it, but the information IS there. 'Nuff said.

I've mixed and mastered albums for 25 years. Some that are in your collection. Thanks for the lesson on how vinyl is done.

Beatles · « **Reply #76 on:** 21 Apr 2004, 10:53 pm »

Quote from: armstrg3

Sounds like "Beatles is a self proclaimed expect on ....let's say everything?! Let's focus on more substance and less egoism, out of consideration for the rest of the members.

No let's say sound quality. And also let's say I find people debating 0.09 versus 0.3% THD to be highly amusing.

Grayson73 · « **Reply #77 on:** 22 Apr 2004, 02:22 pm »

I got this response from Panasonic UK:

Dear Mr Ang,

Thank you for your e-mail enquiry.

In response, I would explain that the SA-XR50 would be a replacement for
SA-XR25. The SA-XR45 is still a current model and available for purchase.

I trust that the above information will be of assistance to you. However,
of course, if you should have any further queries, please do not hesitate
to contact us on 08705 357357 or customer.care@panasonic.co.uk and we will
endeavour to assist.

Simon Bird

Customer Support

Richard U · « **Reply #78 on:** 22 Apr 2004, 03:50 pm »

Someone from Panasonic called me yesterday in response to my inquires about the 50 and 70. They told that due to possible changes, they could not give me any info about the power supply,etc. on the 70. They also said the70 will not be out until the end of June.

Richard

Grayson73 · « **Reply #79 on:** 22 Apr 2004, 08:55 pm »

Any further updates on the SA-XR50 and its performance compared to the XR25 and XR45?

I'm also still wondering whether the new chips in the XR50 are superior.

Panasonic SA-XR50

BenF

BenF