Clearaudio MM -- AT-95E and beyond

sunnydaze · « **Reply #1520 on:** 29 Nov 2016, 07:26 pm »

Quote from: Folsom on 29 Nov 2016, 06:20 pm

I don't know what arm is on my table, it's a cheap MMF5.1 (although the sticker price isn't that cheap on them).

I believe Pro-Ject makes the arms included on Music Hall turntables.

neobop · « **Reply #1521 on:** 30 Nov 2016, 04:16 am »

Quote from: Folsom on 29 Nov 2016, 06:20 pm

The problem was that something within the magnet area got screwed up so it sounded like static all the time. Why and how I don't know. I'm actually sick of Goldring, and I do think it's overpriced. The cartridges cost nearly as much as turntables they come on.

I don't know what arm is on my table, it's a cheap MMF5.1 (although the sticker price isn't that cheap on them).

Can't say I have experience with them, but the 5.1 seems to be well received. Looks like a med mass arm and I think you could use any of a wide range of carts. Want to stick with high output? A replaceable stylus is usually a plus. Looking for a particular sound, detailed, mellow, bright, laid back ?
Hard to beat AT for bang for your buck. Have anything in mind, maybe price?
neo

Folsom · « **Reply #1522 on:** 30 Nov 2016, 07:34 am »

Well I decided to get a different turntable. I need to sell one or two more things before I can get it. I'll probably get an Ortofon Blue or AVA Grado.

neobop · « **Reply #1523 on:** 5 Dec 2016, 11:05 am »

Well, to catch up around here, Halcro wrote a review of the Palladian on Audiogon. You can find it about 10 posts down:
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/the-palladian-a-step-beyond

Since only a couple of people have heard the cart there's only so much to be said. The rest is speculation and of course, other related or unrelated things.
The discussion has turned to cantilever excursion and arm interaction. This leads me to something from about 8 years ago on VE. Thanks to Google I was able to locate this thread. I had forgotten its name and the original subject.

The OP is named Desktop. He is a retired industry pro who worked for a major speaker company. He did research about drivers and human perception.
Like the ancient Egyptians, VE edits its history and my posts have been deleted. Luckydog the physicist name was changed to guest. On page 3 he answers a question of mine and says the now forbidden name neo.

Anyway, check out the 2nd post:
http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=11676

That should keep you busy for awhile.
neo

Halcro · « **Reply #1524 on:** 5 Dec 2016, 11:39 am »

Thanks for that Neo,
The description of the movements of the cantilever are quite incredible but believable when you think about it

Really wish he included a Link to a video we could watch....
I'll try Google.....

Halcro · « **Reply #1525 on:** 5 Dec 2016, 11:45 am »

Ok....found an electron microscope video of a stylus in a groove and it doesn't seem to move the cantilever much at all....

https://youtu.be/GuCdsyCWmt8

GentleBender · « **Reply #1526 on:** 5 Dec 2016, 01:32 pm »

Not that I know much about this stuff. I do enjoy listening and learning when I have time though. You have to remember that the stylus in the video is not properly mounted on a cartridge. That may change quite a few parameters regarding stylus/cantilever movement.

Folsom · « **Reply #1527 on:** 5 Dec 2016, 04:49 pm »

Quote from: Halcro on 5 Dec 2016, 11:45 am

Ok....found an electron microscope video of a stylus in a groove and it doesn't seem to move the cantilever much at all....
https://youtu.be/GuCdsyCWmt8

That's what the RIAA network is for. You can see that some grooves are larger in the video.

neobop · « **Reply #1528 on:** 5 Dec 2016, 06:22 pm »

The video in question was probably made before there was an internet, or before its general use. It wouldn't be possible to make such a video with an electron microscope. This was a slow motion film of an entire cantilever in action using laser interferometry. This splits a laser beam and uses mirrors and phase of the beams to measure things like the ends (internally) of an optic fiber cable. Apparently there are different kinds of interferometers and that's about the extent of my knowledge about them. If you're interested, there are U-tube videos explaining how they work.

The description of the cantilever movement is nothing short of amazing and hard to believe. In another thread Desktop thought it was made by Dynavector, but wasn't sure. I believe he said this was circulated only in the industry and was not for general consumption. This makes sense to me. If a film like this was released it might possibly hurt sales, scaring people away. Companies tend to be protective, but if the film were to be released today, I'd bet it would increase sales. Get your crazy cantilever, entire cartridge for only $98.99. Deluxe model for only $10,299.00.

neo

Halcro · « **Reply #1529 on:** 6 Dec 2016, 05:28 am »

I think what surprised me most, is the scale of the diamond compared to groove 'ditch'...

I kinda had in my mind the stylus sort of 'buried' between the groove walls....

Folsom · « **Reply #1530 on:** 6 Dec 2016, 05:56 am »

Me too, but such is not... I guess.

ACHiPo · « **Reply #1531 on:** 6 Dec 2016, 01:21 pm »

Quote from: Halcro on 27 Nov 2016, 01:47 pm

You might also want to try raising the VTA just a smidgen at the pivot.....
This cartridge has great 'body'.....but it needs to be massaged 'just right'....
Regards
Henry

Henry,
Lifting the tail indeed seems to improve the musicality--no discernible difference in timbre, but music is more emotionally engaging.

Thanks!
Evan

Halcro · « **Reply #1532 on:** 6 Dec 2016, 01:38 pm »

Quote from: ACHiPo on 6 Dec 2016, 01:21 pm

Henry,
Lifting the tail indeed seems to improve the musicality--no discernible difference in timbre, but music is more emotionally engaging.

Thanks!
Evan

Glad it works for you Evan....
For the final curtain, if you have a phonostage that can easily change loading....the FR-6SE is one cartridge that sounds better loaded above 47K Ohms.
I run mine at 60K...

It sure is one sweet cartridge.
As Neo would say.....errs on the side of 'omission. But so easy to listen to

Cheers
Henry

neobop · « **Reply #1533 on:** 7 Dec 2016, 12:58 pm »

Check out these electron microscope photos.
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/295971006731097497/

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/237213105346660717/

Click on a photo in the link and you get more. An electron scope isn't suited for an "in action" video. If you watch the rest of the one Halcro linked to, you'll see what the guy had to do to make it. Only conductive surfaces show up so every insulator must be coated or plated. The scope he used took one frame every 20 seconds (I think he said) so the movement had to be recreated - moved 50 microns at a time.

The reason you need an electron scope for these views, is lack of perspective with optics. You can get 1000X with an optical scope, but the focal length is so short the lens is practically touching the object.
neo

Halcro · « **Reply #1534 on:** 7 Dec 2016, 01:11 pm »

The shot in the second Link (and also second photo in your post) still shows the relationship of the stylus to the groove which is the same as the YouTube video where only the very tip of the stylus navigates the groove.
Impossible to visualise the previously described "tortuous twisting" and "gymnastic convolutions" manifested upon the hapless cantilever....

neobop · « **Reply #1535 on:** 7 Dec 2016, 01:24 pm »

I wonder if laser interferometry might exaggerate the gyrations of the cantilever.

It uses mirrors and they tend to create distortion when used at an angle.

Still, the description said at one point the cantilever seemed to fold up on itself and almost looked like it was in 2 places at the same time.

neo

Halcro · « **Reply #1536 on:** 7 Dec 2016, 01:33 pm »

Quote from: neobop on 7 Dec 2016, 01:24 pm

I wonder if laser interferometry might exaggerate the gyrations of the cantilever.

It uses mirrors and they tend to create distortion when used at an angle.

Still, the description said at one point the cantilever seemed to fold up on itself and almost looked like it was in 2 places at the same time.
neo

Yeh......I just don't see that happening

neobop · « **Reply #1537 on:** 7 Dec 2016, 02:46 pm »

Quote from: Halcro on 7 Dec 2016, 01:33 pm

Yeh......I just don't see that happening

Even if the motions in the video were exaggerated, I'd bet the real gyrations would blow your mind. On paper, the physics of a record player indicate it should not work. "They" used to say a record player is like a bumble bee. According to the laws of aerodynamics, it should not fly. More recently they discovered they underestimated how fast those wings flap.

Desktop was a very interesting poster on VE. As part of his research on speaker drivers, he discovered that midrange drivers produced a more real sound of the human voice if they were no more than about 2.5" in diameter. This was the result of double blind testing, not lab measurements.
neo

neobop · « **Reply #1538 on:** 7 Dec 2016, 03:52 pm »

To change the subject, so far everyone who tried Palladian seems to love it. It must be seductive, so much so that the latest comment was almost obscene - kind of disgusting. I'm assuming not everyone is following the thread. At this point I'm losing interest. The same subjective comments are repeated. Maybe Stereoplay will get one to review and publish a lab report.

My previous comments about UNI DIN alignment might be incorrect. Brakemeier claims Analog Planet nulls are wrong. My comments are based on Fremer's published information or misinformation as the case may be. Maybe his friend Wally Whatisname screwed up?

I'll cut to the chase. Although Brakemeier claims that one null can not be calculated from the other and they don't conform to traditional geometry, I think he's full of it. This is a smoke screen. If there is one null, there has to be another or the alignment would be unlistenable. I suspect the point of alignment on his template is not actually the null and that's why Mikey screwed up, if in fact he did.

Brakemeier is a cleaver fellow and he claims intellectual property for this alignment. Good luck with that one Mr. Brakemeier. I think you might have delusions of grandeur.
Anyway, the giant table looks awesome and I suspect Acoustical Systems will sell a bunch of their carts at $10K/pop, maybe some arms and alignment devices. They will have to settle for that.
neo

smctigue · « **Reply #1539 on:** 24 Dec 2016, 11:53 am »

Over the weekend I found what appears to be a NOS Signet TK7LCa. Installed it on my Townshend yesterday, it sounds very much like my AT20SS - a bit sweeter. It may evolve with more hours on the stylus but I'll probably let it go as I have a bunch of exra stylii for the AT20SS. I've been enjoying a M20E Super for the last few months - a very organic cartridge, excellent synergy with my Pilot 232 and Cornwalls.

If anybody is interested in inspecting the Signet let me know.