[jimdgoulding]

  .  You, too, my friend.

[JLM]

I follow the Cardas formulas all the way (nearfield in a rectangular room) and am very satisfied.  As others have mentioned, I'd first pull the speakers/listening position at least 3 feet farther out into the room. 

IMO your room is problematic (lots of echo with length exactly twice the width and height/width nearly the same).  As the room is narrow anyway, I'd add lots of absorption to the side walls (to make them sound farther away).  This would help break up those bad room dimension ratios.

And get a more comfortable chair (that thing looks punishing, Ikea has comfortable chairs for $20).   

[werd]

Hello

I like your system. You have also made the perfect choice in monitor size  for your room imo. But what you are no doubt hearing is your gear and rack config. I don't mean the quality or brand but how you have a single audio rack and gear stacked up. IMO you need to lower the height of your gear, get the gear close to the ground so it doesn't show up as reflection in your sound stage. You can buy cheap HT racks that are 2 shelves high and 3 wide. Or some how single shelf your gear off the ground around the back of your room.
That and bringing your speakers a little more forward into your room i think will help.

I like your setup, it has a real nice quaint dedicated look to it.

[wywires]

I agree with werd in that your rack and gear are obscuring the center image and causing significant blurr. Spreading out the gear in a lower configuration will help. When the VR-33s arrive, they should be at least 3 feet from the back wall and 2 feet from the side walls leaving 5' between the speakers Your rack should be as close to the back wall as possible. You can experiment with toe-in which will have a significant effect. I don't think that biwiring will make any difference in your setup, IMO. Also, what is the distance between you listening position and the speakers?

[neyloj2]

Wow, thats alot of suggestions. First of all, I have a new chair on order, that one is punishing. I was wondering why people have their rigs so close to the ground, now I get it. I can make two short racks with mine and I will. My chair is in the equalateral triangle, that seems to get me the biggest sound stage. Sometimes I scoot back about a foot. Of course I'm picking up my VR33's today so all this prep is out the window.

[Quiet Earth]

True, the point about the rack desturbing the image, but you may not have to lower it if you move your speakers further apart. (Although it doesn't hurt to try since it won't cost you anything but your time. Plus you can clean all your connectors while it's apart.  )

One more placement option to explore in a narrow room like yours. Use the side walls. You can move each speaker very close to it's respective side wall, and then toe the pair in to fire directly in front of you. Keep the back of each speaker about 12 to 18 inches out from the rear wall. This will get the front baffles in front of the plane of your rack and eliminate that problem. This placement will provide a very wide and tall stereo effect with less depth than the cardas method (speakers out in the room with you). It also gives you the sense that the music is happening in one end of the room and you're sitting in front of it. There is still a stereo image, but you're not engulfed in it, if that makes any sense. Some people like this kind of sound, and others don't.

It's something to try while you're at it anyway.

(BTW, that's exactly how my speakers are set up, but like Jim already pointed out, they were designed with that in mind. I have used the side wall placement with narrow baffle speakers too, and the general idea still works.)

Don't wrench your back too much this weekend. 

[Letitroll98]

And there's nothing wrong with any of the suggestions made here, including the ones made by your speaker manufacturer, all will work at different levels (except the guy who uses garbage cables because it doesn't make a difference, but that's another circle and another thread).  You'd almost need a degree in the field to understand everything mentioned here fully, but some simple rule of thumbs can be applied, to wit: 

Closer to room boundaries increases bass.  If closer to two room boundaries, e.g. corners, bass increases squared.  If you then put your woofer near the floor, bass increases cubed.  Further out into the room and away from room boundaries and early arrival reflections increases imaging, but decreases bass output.  Therefore you can re-enforce bass and improve imaging by moving the speakers closer to room boundaries that are treated with sound absorbing and/or diffusing materials.  You can fix bass resonance problems to some degree by speaker placement, wider or narrower for mid-bass, closer or further to adjust low bass.   

Thus the different opinions on what matters most and how to arrive at each goal.  You said imaging in the OP, so I and others addressed that first.  Then as is the norm in these forums, everyone chips in with their own special agenda and opinions (me included here) and the whole thing gets clouded and goes off in a zillion different directions.  Just try moving the speakers out from the rear wall and either wider or narrower in spread till you hear something you like, experiment, it's free and non destructive.  Then you can read up on things and form your own opinions to inflict on some other newbie on this or other forums.   

[Quiet Earth]

That's a good explanation on the room boundaries. I think everyone can understand that.

I hope I didn't cloud things too much by discussing other options for imaging. Or what can happen when you put your speakers in the middle of the room. Sorry about that. 

FWIW, I am getting a stereo image over here, it's just not the same 3D holographic image that you get doing it that way. I still consider it a respectable image though, and thought it was worth exploring.

[neyloj2]

These speakers are HUGE in my little room. I only had an hour to play with them before I had to go to work. Twelve inches from rear wall, way too much bass. I'm not a big bass kinda guy. Now I'm 52 inches in and 22 from sides sitting near field, real nice sound stage here. My amp, Jolida 801A with all the mods, needs an hour to make these speakers happy. I'm gonna stay here for a few days before I move them again. I'm getting the wow factor now at 11pm with my ipod John Lee Hooker. when I get up tomorrow morning its gonna be Eva Cassidy until I'm happy. I definetely need more side wall treatment.

[raindance]

PS: my comment on using "garbage" interconnects was somewhat tongue in cheek. I use decent quality cables, just not "high end" as I don't believe the hype. After many many years in the audio industry I have come to the belief that sound staging is related to four factors:

- speaker/room interaction
- phase coherency of the system
- speaker placement
- having a balance control to change the sound engineers taste to suit your taste in placement

[werd]

Hi

By just looking at your room, and hearing your comments about bass. Those speakers might be too large for your tastes.

these might have been more to your liking and more logical upgrade path.

http://www.reference3a.com/mmdecapo.htm.

But it takes timeto get use to stuff so give those speakers are good chance....

[Letitroll98]

Now I'm 52 inches in and 22 from sides sitting near field, real nice sound stage here........................I'm getting the wow factor now at 11pm............. I definitely need more side wall treatment.

Congrats on getting to what I assume you're saying is 95% of the way there, good job.  Without any room treatment, you can get relief from early reflections by using the long wall behind the speakers instead of the short wall, then place your listening chair directly hard against the rear wall, e.g. no gap at all.  This keeps reflections from side and rear walls either so close or so far removed in time from first arrival from the speakers that your ear/brain ignores them.  This placement is sometimes more inconvenient than purchasing or building room treatment, it's just an option for you to consider.

After many many years in the audio industry I have come to the belief that sound staging is related to four factors:

- speaker/room interaction
- phase coherency of the system
- speaker placement
- having a balance control to change the sound engineers taste to suit your taste in placement

I agree with you on the above statement raindance.  The only rub is that you would need a couple of hundred pages to fully explain it.  And we can have a grand fight about cables on some other thread, we should stay away from it on this nice person's thread.

[Steve]

I agree with you on the above statement raindance.  The only rub is that you would need a couple of hundred pages to fully explain it.  And we can have a grand fight about cables on some other thread, we should stay away from it on this nice person's thread.

Yes, and masking distortion from different causes (such as frequency response abnormalities etc), which limits the perception of inner detail and affects soundstaging. As mentioned earlier, Stereophile CD3, track 10 is a nice test for this form of distortion.

Cheers.

[neyloj2]

Werd, you do understand that I drove 95 miles yesterday to pick up these beauties the drove home and had the wifey help me carry them into the house after I darn near drained our checking account buying them and NOW you send a link for speakers that may be more suitable.

I have on order more room treatment and some decent ic's. Cardas. I have considered long wall placement as well, however, there are more people who think your chair should never be that close to rear wall, treated or not.

I think when I install the spikes I'll hear a degree of improvement right? I can't install them now, too hard to move around.

After break in, 200 hours, Alberts son told me I can tune bass by filling the bass compartment with pillow stuffing through the rear baffle.

[jimdgoulding]

Werd MEANS well.

[werd]

Werd, you do understand that I drove 95 miles yesterday to pick up these beauties the drove home and had the wifey help me carry them into the house after I darn near drained our checking account buying them and NOW you send a link for speakers that may be more suitable.

I have on order more room treatment and some decent ic's. Cardas. I have considered long wall placement as well, however, there are more people who think your chair should never be that close to rear wall, treated or not.

I think when I install the spikes I'll hear a degree of improvement right? I can't install them now, too hard to move around.

After break in, 200 hours, Alberts son told me I can tune bass by filling the bass compartment with pillow stuffing through the rear baffle.

Hi

Sorry my bad.... yes spikes will help. I consider them more room treatment than speaker add on. They will stop any mechanical energy (bass) from building up around the bottom of your speaker cabinets. IOW energy will move away from the bottom of your speakers. Thats a good thing.

[eclein]

neyloj2- Congrats on the new speakers!!!! Sit, relax, enjoy the sound....its always fun getting new gear in the house.

[neyloj2]

Just kidding around Werd. I fear my spikes won't be attatched for some time as I'm waiting for more treatment to arrive and still moving these monsters around. I think I'm close though. I definitely need more side wall treatment.

I updated my picture in systems.

[Quiet Earth]

Whoa! Those are some big speakers. That's quite a difference from the stand mounted mini monitors in the first post. Guess I shoulda googled Von Schweikert VR33  .

I retract my comment about losing bass impact. It ain't gonna be a problem for you now. Have fun!

[timind]

Whoa! Those are some big speakers. That's quite a difference from the stand mounted mini monitors in the first post.

 Have fun!

You can say that again.
I'd wait until they are well broken in before listening too loudly. They will fill that room with sound.