Sound stage?

neyloj2 · « **on:** 8 Sep 2010, 06:31 am »

Greetings all, newbie here. Why is that some of my jazz records sound as if the saxaphone sound is coming from behind my rack and some records the sound is coming directly from the speakers. Diana Kralls vocals come from behind the rack too. I sit near field, equalateral triangle 6ft. I have Jolida 801A with all the mods, Scoutmaster w Van den Hul mc10 and Quad IIL's toed in slighty. I have ATS 24x48 on wall behind speakers and some diy foam at first reflection. My room is dedicated 10x20x9 wood floor with throw rug. You can see my room in "Systems" under neyloj2. Penny for your thoughts.....John

FullRangeMan · « **Reply #1 on:** 8 Sep 2010, 06:42 am »

Quote from: neyloj2 on 8 Sep 2010, 06:31 am

Greetings all, newbie here. Why is that some of my jazz records sound as if the saxaphone sound is coming from behind my rack and some records the sound is coming directly from the speakers. Diana Kralls vocals come from behind the rack too. I sit near field, equalateral triangle 6ft. I have Jolida 801A with all the mods, Scoutmaster w Van den Hul mc10 and Quad IIL's toed in slighty. I have ATS 24x48 on wall behind speakers and some diy foam at first reflection. My room is dedicated 10x20x9 wood floor with throw rug. Penny for your thoughts.....John

Hi,
Some vinyl and SACDs really have deep soundstage. The sound engineer on the mixing desk can move the musical instruments sound on the virtual space between the two speakers and more far, with the panpot control (panoramic).
Iam sure there is experts on this subject on this site and they can explain more in detail.
Regards, Gustavo

>Never go to a psychiatrist, adopt a cat or dog from the street. On the streets they live only two years average.

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #2 on:** 8 Sep 2010, 06:55 am »

Ney, IME you're sitting pretty to get whatever is in your recordings and that's likely what you're getting. Tho you gotta understand that when an instrument is closely miked and panned a hard left or right, it will be forward. Classical music will normally give you a break from that, especially if it was made on location. So will live jazz, generally.

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #3 on:** 8 Sep 2010, 02:49 pm »

With even decent recordings your system should throw a wide, deep soundfield extending beyond the sides of the speaker placement and should seem to extend well beyond the rear wall in depth. How far forward beyond the speakers, on plane with the speakers, or slightly behind the speakers is a matter of taste and type of speaker. If you are not hearing this there is much room for improvement.

You don't need any new equipment, you have beyond excellent products there (although you don't mention cabling), your problem is one of speaker placement and possibly room treatment. I would suggest trying the Audio Physic method first, then the Cardas method, and there is a procedure called the Master Set detailed on this site that I haven't yet tried, but looks very intriguing. You may end up with a bit from every method, there's not one right way to achieve placement nirvana, but you clearly need to experiment some here.

Try these links:
http://www.immediasound.com/Speaker%20set-up%202009.pdf
http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=64321.0
http://www.nsmaudio.com/brochures/stereosetup.html
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/faq/audiophysic.html
http://www.soundstage.com/audiohell/audiohell200111.htm

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #4 on:** 8 Sep 2010, 04:05 pm »

Need to add something to my reply as I hadn't looked at your photo when I wrote it. Suggest you bring your speakers more into the room like 2 to 3 more times their cabinet depth from the wall behind them and bring them a little closer together. Bring the stands right up to where the red in your carpet meets the border for starters. Then adjust your chair so that you maintain your triangle. Toe them in to where you sit but not so much that you can't see the inside of your cabinets. This should create a larger 3D soundfield for your system to deliver the imagery and all the information in your recordings in to. As Leti has said and presumably provided links to (couldn't get them to open, dear), there are several schools of thought about this, one opposing. Your equipment is very capable, I agree. Cheers.

neyloj2 · « **Reply #5 on:** 8 Sep 2010, 05:37 pm »

Thank you for the suggestions, I will certainly apply these formulas tonight and see what works. I have VR33's on order so somewhat of a mute point here but experimenting to gain knowledge is always worth the effort. My ic's are garbage. I don't even know the brand. The guy I bought my tt from threw in a cheap set and the other ones I found in my garage.

Wayner · « **Reply #6 on:** 8 Sep 2010, 06:44 pm »

A whole bunch of percentage of soundstage comes from the recording itself. It just depends on how it was recorded and how much room or reverb ambiance was used. Screwing around with speaker placement or different ICs will not bring in the recovery you may be looking for.

However, I too listen in near field and your equilateral triangle for listening is perhaps suspect. I have my speakers about 9 feet apart and I'm about 7 feet away. Ok, yeah I'm probably listening more like in mid-field, but the toe-in angle you describe is too much, IMO.

I like to set the toe-in so that when I'm in front of the right speaker, I can hear the left speaker, almost as if it were stereo in that location, same for the other speaker. This leaves the speakers at about a 10 degree toe-in.

If you toe them in too much, they start "beaming", concentrating the delicate upper mid and high freqs and actually a case for cross-talk distortion. If the toe in angle is too small, there will be a gaping hole in the sound-stage. Things just wont transition nice from the left to the right speaker.

When you do your speaker set-up, use a source of material that has lots of panning. If you get this sounding awesome, your lesser spine-tingling records will improve.

Wayner

Mr Peabody · « **Reply #7 on:** 9 Sep 2010, 12:01 am »

All good info here. I tend to think speaker placement will help some but it is true it has much to do with the recording. For instance, some older recordings are true two channel and there isn't anything in the center stage. I have a couple LP's like that, some Beatles come to mind.

It has also been my experience that quality IC's and speaker cable help with overall sound quality. At the very least try some Bluejeans cable. There's better but BJC will allow you to hear improvement without breaking the bank. If you hear the advantage then maybe try better later.

timind · « **Reply #8 on:** 9 Sep 2010, 01:38 am »

I was going to make a suggestion until I read Jimdgoulding's second post. Exactly what I'd suggest.
One caveat. I owned the Quad 11Ls and had trouble getting what others describe as great sound. Don't mean to dis your speakers but they never got me there.

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #9 on:** 9 Sep 2010, 02:14 am »

Quote from: neyloj2 on 8 Sep 2010, 05:37 pm

My ic's are garbage. I don't even know the brand. The guy I bought my tt from threw in a cheap set and the other ones I found in my garage.

Replacing these will not only affect your soundstage, but will improve your system immensely in other areas like detail and impact. Speaker placement is of course foremost and will make the most difference. The links and all the info is great, definitely delve in when you have time it's great fun, but just pulling the speakers out into the room as Jim suggests will make a world of difference.

But do try some new IC's and speaker cables as funds permit. You don't have to spend tons to make dramatic improvements, I've heard great things about the inexpensive Morrow cables offered on this site, I like Zu Audio who run special sales on overstock on eBay all the time, even old standards like Kimber PBJ and Audioquest Type IV (these are not my favs) will be better than OEM garbage.

Steve · « **Reply #10 on:** 9 Sep 2010, 03:32 am »

Quote from: Letitroll98 on 9 Sep 2010, 02:14 am

Replacing these will not only affect your soundstage, but will improve your system immensely in other areas like detail and impact. Speaker placement is of course foremost and will make the most difference...
But do try some new IC's and speaker cables as funds permit.

I can certainly concur with Letit's comments. Several years ago Bob Smith (SP Technologies) and I met at Earlmarc's in South Bend. During testing we exchanged brands "X" and "Y" ICs (both were less than $200.00). (Both were simply connections with no resistors/capacitors built in.)

With "X" ics connected we could not perceive depth beyond the wall but when exchanged with "Y" ics we could perceive the music well behind the wall. Quite a difference in performance.

By the way, Stereophile test CD 3, track 10 is a great selection for testing depth and soundstage as a gentleman, is at the mic, moves over the stage and is also 50 feet from the stage/mic during a portion of the recording.

Cheers.

neyloj2 · « **Reply #11 on:** 9 Sep 2010, 03:35 pm »

I know I needed better ic's but when does the blood letting end. I just made an offer at agon for a pair of Van den Hul ic's. Its a $250 cable. I also bought a pair of Audio Quest Vipers on ebay.

neyloj2 · « **Reply #12 on:** 9 Sep 2010, 05:32 pm »

I think my sound stage is about to greatly improve. I just spoke with Von Schweikerts and my bi wire VR33's will be ready for pick up tomorrow at noon. Albert said these speakers can sit 3" from the rear wall if need be.

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #13 on:** 9 Sep 2010, 07:37 pm »

Well, yeah, they CAN. Suggest you give a try to what has been suggested with them, too. Congratulations.

raindance · « **Reply #14 on:** 9 Sep 2010, 08:31 pm »

Quote from: neyloj2 on 8 Sep 2010, 06:31 am

Greetings all, newbie here. Why is that some of my jazz records sound as if the saxaphone sound is coming from behind my rack and some records the sound is coming directly from the speakers. Diana Kralls vocals come from behind the rack too. I sit near field, equalateral triangle 6ft. I have Jolida 801A with all the mods, Scoutmaster w Van den Hul mc10 and Quad IIL's toed in slighty. I have ATS 24x48 on wall behind speakers and some diy foam at first reflection. My room is dedicated 10x20x9 wood floor with throw rug. You can see my room in "Systems" under neyloj2. Penny for your thoughts.....John

I assume you have verified that your speakers are in phase?

How did you determine first reflection point - did you use mirrors on the side wall and view the tweeter from the listening seat?

Interconnects, even "garbage" ones should not affect soundstaging to a large degree, slightly at best. I only use "garbage" interconnects, preferring to spend money on things that really make a difference.

My advice would be to get the speakers away from the rear wall at least a foot and make sure this distance is not equal to the distance from the side wall. Try your seating position at the equilateral position first and then try using the rule of thirds to make your listening distance a bit further. Any difference?

If this doesn't work, try an arrangement where your seat is against or very close to a wall and get the speakers well away from their wall. I messed around for a long time in my room and eventually found a good compromise using long wall placement, speakers away from the wall, seat near the other wall, listening position a bit further than the distance between the speakers. My system has great imaging even with cheap cables.

I'd be concerned that the VR33's would be way overpowering in such a small room. Plus they need a further listening point for good "driver integration". Bookshelves almost always do the disappearing act better than large floorstanders.

I wish you luck!

Steve · « **Reply #15 on:** 9 Sep 2010, 09:42 pm »

Quote from: neyloj2 on 9 Sep 2010, 05:32 pm

I think my sound stage is about to greatly. I just spoke with Von Schweikerts and my bi wire VR33's will be ready for pick up tomorrow at noon. Albert said these speakers can sit 3" from the rear wall if need be.

I am currently auditioning a pair on loan. One piece of advice I can give is do not be afraid to move them around. I have had them 12 inches to 18 inches, and even rotated them a little outward to get a feel for them. Get to know them in different circumstances if you can Neylo.

Cheers.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #16 on:** 9 Sep 2010, 10:20 pm »

neyloj2,

When you experiment with speaker placement as suggested above, be aware that there will be some tradeoffs. Just so you're not surprised :

You will loose some of the bass impact and dynamic liveliness that the back wall and corners reinforce. Having somewhat small speakers such as yours, you might loose quite a bit.

Many people try to recapture this loss of impact by adding a subwoofer or increasing their amplifier power. This can work but it can also complicate things further.

Not all recordings are made the same, so when we try to make them all have the same virtual sound stage, something's got to give. As you try to extract the perfect soundfield from every recording, you may end up with more of a hi-fi sound and less of an emotional sound. Homogenization.

There is no standard for stereo, no right nor wrong. On top of that, we all have different speakers, rooms, and taste.

When you move your speakers as suggested, try to live with it for a while before you move them again. Eventually you will find a spot for them that strikes a balance between a good sound field and good sound. Personally, I like your speakers where you have them. I would try to separate them further aparrt, getting them closer to the corners but still up against the wall., Then add more toe in to recapture the center image.

That's what works for me anyway.

neyloj2 · « **Reply #17 on:** 10 Sep 2010, 03:54 am »

Good advice I think. Its interesting how so many people that have done this for so long can have such different opinions. I also have some threads over at Agon. Some people say the best room is perfect rectangular, some like treatments and some none at all. I'm going to try my VR33's the way Albert told me to first. He's got to know best, right?. He said 8 feet apart 12 to 18 inches off rear wall and that I should sit 10 feet back. This will be my starting point. If I find my room too small I can move to one of the spare bedrooms that measures 12x15x9. Thanks for all the help with my new addiction.

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #18 on:** 10 Sep 2010, 04:26 am »

I feel the fun yer about to have. Heck, man, makes ME happy! I'm not about to contradict Alberto . . yet. I think Ouiet Earth's speakers were designed with corner placement in mind. Feel free to bust my chops, Quiet, if I'm mistaken. Albert's suggestion is gonna give you a full bodied and impressively big sound. And I'm sure you will be awash with glee. But, that's not exactly how I read your initial inquiry. If you want distinct instrumental placement in whatever or wherever the acoustic in your recordings may happen to be, try giving your new speakers some room to breathe as suggested pre Albert. At some point. Happy trails.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #19 on:** 10 Sep 2010, 04:48 am »

Yep. What Jim said :

Have fun experimenting.