The Stacked Baltic Birch N2X Ideas and Assembly Thread

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BrianH

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Re: The Stacked Baltic Birch N2X Ideas and Assembly Thread
« Reply #40 on: 8 Oct 2010, 11:43 pm »
Steve probably has a better idea than my cheap one. Though I have not tried the  91% myself.

All I use was the cheap stuff from the grocery/drug store first aid isle.

I am looking at the label it is 70% isopropyl rubbing alcohol and the rest is water according to the label. Manufacturer is Swan. Since there is nothing else in it there is no residue and for what I have used it on, the amount of water in it has not been a factor.

I also use it often just to check out what things are going to look like after I finish them, I use a lot of exotic woods and for many the change is quite dramatic once they are finished. I am partially color blind so pastel anything is pretty much lost on me.

I also use it sometimes to clean my glasses, no residue there either. :)

praedet

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Re: The Stacked Baltic Birch N2X Ideas and Assembly Thread
« Reply #41 on: 12 Oct 2010, 05:15 pm »
All right, so I am a good ways through the sanding process and I thought I would post up some pictures and ask some questions.  First the pictures.  I have gone up to 150 grit on all sides on one speaker, the one on top.  On the bottom one I have only worked on the the right side and the front.  The darker spots are the wet spots from wiping the speakers off.








And Last but not least, the help that wanted to be in a picture of his own :lol:



So, the questions.
1.  I have some "scratches" from the coarser sand paper that was used to smooth the differences between the layers.  I have used a hand block and the palm sander repeatedly to try and clean them up.  Any thoughts? 
2.  How fine should I sand before I start the finishing process with filling in any holes, clear grain filler, and then on to the poly...
3.  If I am going to veneer, do I put on the veneer before I start the poly application so I can do that on all sides?
4.  How should I attach the front baffle?  Screws, glue, my mind?  If screws, should I make a gasket to create an airtight seal?
5.  No Rez:
5a.  I have never used No-Rez.  Is it as simple as cutting the pieces and then peeling in the backing and sticking them in? 
5b.  Do I put on the top piece and then start cutting small pieces to fit in the various places from there, just making sure the pieces butt against each other, or do they literally need to overlap from top to side etc.
5c.  Does the No-Rez cover every wall on the inside of the speaker with the exception of where the cross-over will be, and the braces?
5d.  Is it all right for the No-Rez on the top and bottom to cover the flare on the back of the of the baffle for the drivers?

I know that is a lot for now, sorry ;)

dvenardos

Re: The Stacked Baltic Birch N2X Ideas and Assembly Thread
« Reply #42 on: 12 Oct 2010, 06:03 pm »
I can answer one, yes.  :green:
Now, let the experts chime in.

5a.  I have never used No-Rez.  Is it as simple as cutting the pieces and then peeling in the backing and sticking them in? 

ebag4

Re: The Stacked Baltic Birch N2X Ideas and Assembly Thread
« Reply #43 on: 12 Oct 2010, 06:17 pm »
Those are some stout good looking cabinets!

Best,
Ed

praedet

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Re: The Stacked Baltic Birch N2X Ideas and Assembly Thread
« Reply #44 on: 12 Oct 2010, 06:34 pm »
I can answer one, yes.  :green:
Now, let the experts chime in.
Thanks :lol:
Those are some stout good looking cabinets!

Best,
Ed
They are VERY stout :icon_twisted:

WGH

Re: The Stacked Baltic Birch N2X Ideas and Assembly Thread
« Reply #45 on: 12 Oct 2010, 08:31 pm »

1.  I have some "scratches" from the coarser sand paper that was used to smooth the differences between the layers.  I have used a hand block and the palm sander repeatedly to try and clean them up.  Any thoughts? 
2.  How fine should I sand before I start the finishing process with filling in any holes, clear grain filler, and then on to the poly...
3.  If I am going to veneer, do I put on the veneer before I start the poly application so I can do that on all sides?


1. The dreaded cross grain scratches always show up during finish sanding. The easiest solution is to go back to #80 grit and re-sand. I like orbital sanders, if you just need one for this job and the occasional home project then the Ryobi 5" for $40 at Home Depot will work.



2. Sand to #120, fill holes, sand again with #120 and then #150, #220, #320 and up to #400 grit is you want a swirl free finish. Finish with a clear poly.

3. Sand to #120, fill holes, re-sand with #120, veneer, then poly. If you poly before you veneer then the glue won't stick.

praedet

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Re: The Stacked Baltic Birch N2X Ideas and Assembly Thread
« Reply #46 on: 12 Oct 2010, 08:55 pm »
1. The dreaded cross grain scratches always show up during finish sanding. The easiest solution is to go back to #80 grit and re-sand. I like orbital sanders, if you just need one for this job and the occasional home project then the Ryobi 5" for $40 at Home Depot will work.

2. Sand to #120, fill holes, sand again with #120 and then #150, #220, #320 and up to #400 grit is you want a swirl free finish. Finish with a clear poly.

3. Sand to #120, fill holes, re-sand with #120, veneer, then poly. If you poly before you veneer then the glue won't stick.
Thank you!

The crazy part is I am using 80 grit in a Black & Decker Orbital Palm Sander and I haven't gotten them out yet  :scratch:

driguy

Re: The Stacked Baltic Birch N2X Ideas and Assembly Thread
« Reply #47 on: 12 Oct 2010, 09:17 pm »
All right, so I am a good ways through the sanding process and I thought I would post up some pictures and ask some questions.  First the pictures.  I have gone up to 150 grit on all sides on one speaker, the one on top.  On the bottom one I have only worked on the the right side and the front.  The darker spots are the wet spots from wiping the speakers off.








And Last but not least, the help that wanted to be in a picture of his own :lol:



So, the questions.
1.  I have some "scratches" from the coarser sand paper that was used to smooth the differences between the layers.  I have used a hand block and the palm sander repeatedly to try and clean them up.  Any thoughts? 
2.  How fine should I sand before I start the finishing process with filling in any holes, clear grain filler, and then on to the poly...
3.  If I am going to veneer, do I put on the veneer before I start the poly application so I can do that on all sides?
4.  How should I attach the front baffle?  Screws, glue, my mind?  If screws, should I make a gasket to create an airtight seal?
5.  No Rez:
5a.  I have never used No-Rez.  Is it as simple as cutting the pieces and then peeling in the backing and sticking them in? 
5b.  Do I put on the top piece and then start cutting small pieces to fit in the various places from there, just making sure the pieces butt against each other, or do they literally need to overlap from top to side etc.
5c.  Does the No-Rez cover every wall on the inside of the speaker with the exception of where the cross-over will be, and the braces?
5d.  Is it all right for the No-Rez on the top and bottom to cover the flare on the back of the of the baffle for the drivers?

I know that is a lot for now, sorry ;)
OK,
First off, I am assuming that when you are talking about applying veneer you mean just the top like the birds-eye maple units pictured.
If you have not filled in the holes yet you need to do so before going any further. The color of the filler will change a lot from what you see in the can once you apply a finish to it so test on a scrap piece first to make sure you are happy with the color. It will tend to get pretty dark but since the plywood has varying colors it is not too critical.
Get everything smooth down to 150 grit and pretty flat on the sides. If you cannot get out the coarser scratches from previous grits of paper you have made a common error. ALL of the scratches from the previous grit must be gone before moving up in grit. If you try to get out 80 grit scratches with 150 grit paper you have a lot of frustration in front of you. Sorry, but the end grain of the plywood is extremely hard stuff. Be sure not to focus too much on one area with the palm sander. Because of their size you can make a divot in the wood before you know it. The more gloss on your finish the more you will notice imperfections. The joint line from the top to the sides is critical. It must be pretty clean. If not the irregularities will show after you trim the veneer.
Apply the veneer and ensure that the bond at the edges is very good. Trim the excess with a flush trim router bit. Do not make the bit cut off too much extra veneer. It may catch and rip off a piece ruining the effort. Cut the veneer close to the edge using good scissors or some other SHARP cutting tool. After you have trimmed the veneer you are now ready to finish your sanding. You can use power tools for the 180 +/or 220 grit paper but for such a small piece you may not want to risk it especially for the top veneer. The sides should be OK but watch the joint line at the top where it meets the veneer. After you get to 220 grit you will still have to hand sand with the grain. No matter how fine you get the finish will show the swirl marks from an orbital sander. Besides, there is still some satisfaction when doing the last bit of sanding by hand and you make mistakes a lot slower. At that point it should only take a couple of minutes. If you are having trouble following the contour you can glue the sandpaper to thin strips of wood (so that it acts like bender board) to follow the curve. Go easy on the veneer.
I agree 100% about the shellac. Just be sure to mix it in something the it will not react with. Glass is best IMO. You can build up a few coats and use poly on top if you wish for more resistance to life forces like water stains and general scratches.
Regarding the attachment of the baffle. I have used the ball and plastic cup fasteners a lot but they require precise alignment. I used magnets on my last build and I am very happy with the results. (See my sub cabinet post). Four will do fine on your size grill. I used 5 minute epoxy to mount the magnets. Be very sure you have the poles of the magnets aligned when you glue them up.
NO-Rez: I would not get too worked up about covering every single inch of the interior. Those things are really built!! Personally I would cut the NR into strips narrow enough to fit along the sides between the horizontal baffles. The horizontal braces could use some but be careful not to change the design by plugging any holes unless Danny thinks that would be OK. Of course, top and bottom surfaces as well. I think the greatest potential for vibration comes right at the source, the driver mounting baffle. Reducing the vibration there will really get things going in the right direction. It comes with a very sticky adhesive so try and line it up right the first time. Also, make sure that your surfaces are dust free and that you press down on it to ensure good contact. Leaving small gaps will not kill the intent of the product if I am not mistaken. It's main purpose is to stop (actually to change) resonances. Larger unsupported structures (surfaces) and ones with holes in them have more easily excited resonances. By applying the NR you reduce the amplitude and frequency of the resonant frequency not only of the speaker as a whole but of each surface it is applied to. Again, if I am not mistaken the NR also takes the vibration and dissipates it through it's layering as heat.
By building the cabinet out of multi-layered plywood you avoid some resonances as well as some vibrations get changed as they meet the glue layer of each ply. Perhaps I am getting a bit too into it but there you are.
A last note about the No-Rez. If you have some left over you can apply it to the webs of the driver reducing vibrations there as well. If it is too bulky, you can trim the foam part down. BTW, when cutting the NR, I measure and cut on the back side. I cut through just the hard layer from the back with a utility knife with a new blade. Then I took a torch and heated up the utility knife (blade extended) blade to hot cut the foam layer. Works very well.
Hope this helps.
Tony

WGH

Re: The Stacked Baltic Birch N2X Ideas and Assembly Thread
« Reply #48 on: 12 Oct 2010, 09:51 pm »
Thank you!

The crazy part is I am using 80 grit in a Black & Decker Orbital Palm Sander and I haven't gotten them out yet  :scratch:

The glue in the plywood and end grain will dull the sandpaper pretty fast so you will have to change often. I suppose you can go to #60 and grind the scratches out.

Some brands do not hold up well, I use Klingspor, you may have to order:
http://www.woodworkingshop.com/ or
http://klingspor.com/Retail/finddealer.htm

The best type of sandpaper for sanding plywood uses ALUMINA ZIRCONIA, it will last forever. The Alumina Zirconia grains work great for dimensioning of wood, the grinding of stainless steel and other hard steels, the sanding of body fillers, and other hard to sand materials.
http://www.woodworkingshop.com/cgi-bin/837BE989/mac/qryitems.mac/itemDisplay?qryType=STYLE&itemSt=SD5000AZ


Peter J

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Re: The Stacked Baltic Birch N2X Ideas and Assembly Thread
« Reply #49 on: 12 Oct 2010, 11:36 pm »
A couple of things about sanding may be helpful. A random orbit sander is much better at removing stock quickly...better than a standard orbital. Sometimes called a DA or dual action sander, common usage in body shops for years, more recently marketed to woodworkers.  My fav is air powered but have Porter Cable electric too.

On said sander, for what you're doing, I'd suggest a "hard'' pad. The pad is what the sandpaper attaches to. With a cushiony pad, the paper tends to form around irregularities. A hard pad will tend to plane irregularities because its skating only on the high spots. A hard thing to describe, but very evident when you're working at stock removal.

With a hard pad and 60 or 80 grit good paper, you should be able to get these rough sanded in an hour or less...sounds like you're slaving at it.

praedet

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Re: The Stacked Baltic Birch N2X Ideas and Assembly Thread
« Reply #50 on: 13 Oct 2010, 11:53 pm »
Thanks for the reponses folks, this is awesome!

Tony, I was actually asking about attaching the baffle, not the grill.

I am trying to figure out if I will ever need to take off the baffle again, or if I can glue it on permanently...

driguy

Re: The Stacked Baltic Birch N2X Ideas and Assembly Thread
« Reply #51 on: 15 Oct 2010, 08:56 pm »
Thanks for the reponses folks, this is awesome!

Tony, I was actually asking about attaching the baffle, not the grill.

I am trying to figure out if I will ever need to take off the baffle again, or if I can glue it on permanently...
If you are mounting the drivers to the outside face, go ahead and glue the baffle on. It will be very strong and not prone to vibrations quite as much. If you do wish or need to make it removable then try the following:
Clamp the baffle into position the best way possible. Not that easy but still do-able.
Carefully mark exactly where you want the mounting fasteners to go. I would recommend using 1/4-20 inserts made for MDF. Link here;  http://woodworker.com/8-32x10mm-type-d-zinc-insert-mssu-812-452.asp?search=threaded%20inserts&searchmode=2
Get the type "D" style as the flange keeps them from flaring out while you are torquing them into place.
Drill a 1/16" guide hole through the baffle and into the enclosure. You cannot use the bit for the insert to go through the baffle as it is too large. I still use 5 minute epoxy to ensure the inserts will not come loose over time. The construction of the enclosures should allow for very good holding power for these inserts. You can try the brass type but installing them has always been a hassle for me as they are more difficult to keep in alignment.
You can use 1/4 -20 flat head screws to attach the baffle for a very smooth look. Use a real countersink bit, not just a large drill bit like some of my buddies do.
If you choose to glue it on you can still use the inserts (smaller size perhaps) to mount the drivers instead of screwing them down. The larger driver especially may benefit from this. You could bolt it down using inserts or by using through bolts and ny-lock nuts (self retaining) which would allow setting them using proper torque as the ny-locks will hold their setting without coming loose. That way you don't have to torque them like crazy possibly distorting the flange or the basket. The smaller driver would be mounted second in a more conventional way but I would assume the weight and vibration would be less on that unit.
Ny-lock nuts look like this but are available locally most likely: http://www.nylocknut.com/

eclein

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Re: The Stacked Baltic Birch N2X Ideas and Assembly Thread
« Reply #52 on: 16 Oct 2010, 07:04 pm »
I bet they will sound sweeeet!!!! :thumb:

Norman Tracy

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Re: The Stacked Baltic Birch N2X Ideas and Assembly Thread
« Reply #53 on: 21 Oct 2010, 05:02 am »
Praedet asked for me to comment further on my experiences working with Baltic birch plywood in the context of this thread specifically stacked laminations designs. For years now I have built several designs using the transverse lamination technique, often referred to as ‘translam’ on the web audio forums. My goal is to arrive at a set of techniques that will allow ACG to offer speakers using the translam feature in the ‘expensive but not crazy money’ category. From a commercial standpoint what I have learned tends to justify the crazy money prices charged as translam is very material, labor and/or CNC machine intensive to build and especially finish to high end standards.  The good news for the DIYers reading this is the end result of all your sweat equity will be worth it both sonically and visually. I am convinced a well designed translam box beats one made from flat stock by a wide margin.

We will start with a question Praedet asked me then onto more general suggestions.

“Yours did not have a separate baffle, but what would you have done to the baffle if they had?  Do you think a satin black painted baffle would match with the rest of the finish?” He also asked: “Any hints, exact directions, and/or specific tools/brands you used to do your speakers that you might want to share?  I have been looking to duplicate your speakers from the beginning and I would love to know how you did the veneer and how you finished the speakers.”

My opinion is black on a hi-fi speaker has reached the same status it enjoys on formal attire, i.e. it’s the go-to color of choice. No doubt this is aided by the fact that 90% of the time the drivers we are mounting on the baffle are black or silver. In the specific case of translam enclosures Magico (www.magico.net) has established the black baffle + clear coated stacked birch ply look.

The other comment I will make about the baffles is to consider making them removable. The sides of this design look thick enough to accept threaded inserts for countersunk machine screws to hold the baffle on.* I recommend removable both to allow reusing the enclosure with other drivers in the future and so that the finishing operations on the birch ply enclosure and MDF baffle can be separately optimized and completed. As you are in the process of finding out there will be many hours of work into these by the time you complete the gluing, sanding, and finishing. The flexibility of a removable baffle will look good as the hours pile up. I make removable baffles by using ½” MDF to make a template the exact size of the baffle into which I carefully layout and drill pilot holes for the mounting screws. The template is then used to transfer the hole locations to both the baffle and the enclosure so everything lines up.  I write the project name on the template and save it for use when the upgrade bug hits and I am wanting to try different drivers then the template has both the mounting hole locations and the baffle dimension all ready to go.

*As I wrote the above paragraph it occurred to me with the curved sides of the design for baffle mounting hole locations another option is glue four 1”x1”oak blocks in the corners of the enclosure opening. The flat top and bottom panels will provide surfaces to which the blocks will glue. Using something like oak will accept the threaded insert and be very strong. I suggest the blocks hidden inside the enclosure because they give us an out in case something goes wrong. If you are drilling into the sides of the enclosure into the CNC machined parts and the drill breaks through or an insert splits the wood that makes for a very bad day in the shop. If one of these blocks get buggered up just cut it out and try again.

We are getting bogged down in this baffle issue, let’s get back to translam tips. If you want to glue on the baffle I can offer some hints there as well.

The disclaimer before we start is what follows has worked for me. Others will have methods and materials that work for them. Where one ends up on a process like this is related to both what one has tried and the cost vs. time tradeoff.  I tend to prefer materials that are re-workable because I often do one of a kind projects, the trade off is more hours and days until we are done. If I were setting up a factory to pump these out in even moderate quantities I would switch to materials like epoxies and sprayed polyester finishes. These are much quicker but when something goes wrong scrapping the item and go onto the next is the cost effective way.

Recipe for this enclosure’s construction and finish.










The shapes for individual layers were laser cut. That was a failed experiment looking for a quicker and therefore less expensive alternative to CNC milling/router. Any cost saving on the CNC side was lost to the fact laser cutting of thick materials results in an edge that is not exactly at a right angle. This is because the laser beam is ever so slightly cone shaped. Also the edges are blackened because after all the wood is being burned to cut it. Therefore after the glue up MASSIVE amounts of sanding went into getting the result seen here, I was warned but had to try anyway.

Speaking of the glue up I always use Titebond II wood glue and it has yet to let me down. I have considered using epoxy but with costs of materials and machining time always high I am loath to use the several time more expensive epoxies given we will use it by the quart or liter. I also like the water cleanup of wood glues. A hint is to get one of the small disposable paint rollers to apply the glue. I like to get a thin layer completely covering the wood surfaces to be joined and rolling it on is quicker and more precise then squirting it on out of a squeeze bottle or with a brush. Clean the roller in water and its good for a few applications.

I have yet to discover a method to align and glue the layers precisely enough that the sanding step can be only for finishing as in a typical wood work process. For translam we can think of the initial sanding as a secondary machining process to level out the layers.  I use both sanding blocks and the indispensable powered orbital sanders. I have also tried belt sanding so let us go there for a bit.

I actually built two pairs of the laser cut translam enclosures. After all the work sanding the first pair using blocks and orbital sander I bought a belt sander looking to speed the process on the second. I advise you not to use a belt sander or if you must do so with great caution. The good and bad/dangerous things about belt sanders is the same thing, that is they can remove a lot of material quickly. In these translam projects we have paid good money to have lovely curves CNC machined into the layers. If one lets a belt sander ‘get away’ and have its way that curve will quickly be a different shape flattened out. It can be done, it just takes intense unbroken concentration.
When using manual sanding blocks and powered orbital sanders the first step is to clamp the speaker down on a stout work surface. Cradle and protect the opposite side with something like an old beach towel and clamp that sucker down. Movement of the enclosure while you are sanding robs the energy you want applied to cutting down the wood and glue. Sorry if this is too obvious but early in my haste I would just hold the part on the bench with one hand and sand with the other. Twice the muscles involved for half the work. Self taught woodworker mistake, but it does make for excellent isometric exercise!

So with the work piece clamped down I prefer to start with a 100 grit and work to finer 180 and 220. I won’t say I never used 80 grit especially getting past the charred edges on the laser cut units but my experience is time saved using 80 grit I end up spending using 100 grit to cut off the scratches left by the 80. Reading the thread above it seems Praedet may be there now. On the other hand Wayne (WGH) who I believe is a true professional wood craftsman of the 1st order suggests using 80 grit so again I will repeat this is what worked for me not the only way. My emphasis is get it right the first time as I have no units to scrap and if it takes more time and sheets of 100 grit so be it. Looking at the photos of Praedet’s work in progress above judging from the still visible glue I would say you have some more sanding at 100 grit ahead of you. After the 100 sanding I go to just a little 180 &/or 220 to get the surface nice and smooth. Not too much time at finer than 100 because as soon as we start with the polyurethane it will raise the grain and we will be knocking that down. Of course from here on dust control is task one so clean up the work space and buy some tack cloths along with the sandpaper and polyurethane. Wipe off dust with a tack cloth before every finish coat in the process detailed below.

Now I am assuming you are heading toward a clear finish over the natural Birch plywood layers. I have some experience to share staining these but this is already getting quite long so that will go in a later post. If you are staining stop here until I get that written up. For a DIY friendly clear finish I use Minwax Wipe-on Poly for both sealing and topcoats. As has already been pointed out there are sealers and topcoats that will build up faster but I know this works and keeps it simple. The tradeoffs are a downside of a more time intensive process with an upside of easy and hard to screw up. Apply the Wipe-On with a brush or I use a lint free cloth held in a gloved hand. For now just apply to the end grain sides/back as the top and bottom will require fewer coats. After all the real work of the sanding applying the first coat of finish is for me always a special milestone. Seeing the wood surface pop out as the finish enhances it is a real payoff. This is a temporary effect as the first few applications will just seem to disappear into the wood as they dry, because that is where it is going as especially the end grain layers just drink it in. Depending on the plywood your working with after 2 to 6 applications of the Wipe-on Poly the grain will fill and the polyurethane film start to build on the surface.

Let’s take a break while another coat of poly dries and talk about veneering. Here I am assuming you may want to veneer the top and perhaps bottom end cap as I have in the units shown above. I have never veneered over the edges of a translam project so no comment on that (well maybe to ask WHY!?!??). I bring up veneering at this point because I apply the veneer after sanding and initial sealing of the edge and before final finishing. My thinking is experience teaches with translam part of the big sanding task is getting the glue squeeze out left from gluing the layers together off the end grain sides. With veneering comes the danger of more glue getting on the end grain. One could veneer before starting the sanding, the downside of that is the veneer sits there in harms way while I am wailing away on the end grain sanding. My preference is to get the edges sanded and sealed then if any glue gets past the masking tape onto the edge grain it is sitting on top of the poly rather than soaking into the end grain and hardening in the wood. The speakers shown above have the tops veneered with birds eye maple. I used un-backed veneer. This has the advantage of no paper backing showing along the edges. One does have to be careful that the glue does not go through the veneer. I used my trusty Titebond II wood glue because my experiences with contact cement have ranged from mild disappointment to total two weeks of reworking disasters. On the speakers above I wet glued the veneer clamping the entire surface with a flat call of MDF or plywood. With the call down, then veneer, then speaker upside down on top extra glue won’t run down the speaker sides.  In one case I had to veneer that speaker twice as I applied too much glue and it came through the veneer. Second try I used less glue and it went A-OK. I have read a coat of shellac applied and dried on the veneer before glue up will prevent the glue soaking through. I have not tried that because for recent veneering projects I have switched to the endlessly discussed iron on method using, how did you guess, Titebond II. Instructions abound on the web for doing veneering with the iron on method so I will not repeat those here beyond this hint. When using general purpose wood glue like Titebond be aware of its phases of chemical cure. In the case of Titebond II the period after it tacks up (30 minutes to an hour after application to the veneer and surface being veneered) and before a several hour cure is when it can be re-softened with heat to fuse veneer to substrate. After an overnight cure Titebond II undergoes a chemical reaction and can no longer be softened with heat. So do not get interrupted during veneering OR look into the types of glues know as ‘hide glue’ as used by luthiers for musical instrument assembly.  Hide glues remain in a chemical state where they soften whenever heat is applied.

However I get the veneer on after the glue sets I trim it using a bearing equipted flush trim router bit carefully setup in my plunge router. Router or hand trimming my goal is to get the veneer almost flush with the sides so I can finish it up with careful hand sanding using 100 grit on a block.

Ok, that turned into quite the diversion, back to finishing with Wipe-on Poly. With the end grain layers sealed a couple of coats on the ends get them started, from here on we are finishing all sides. The first coats of poly also function as a primer. By that I am referring to the fact we only really see the exact nature of a surface’s state after we begin to coat it. It is essentially 100% certain at this stage you will find imperfections, fixing them now is part of the process, NOT a sign the project is going south!  If you missed some glue that need to be sanded off go to it. Some little voids in the plywood may show up (or some not so little voids if the false economy of using Chinese over Euro/USA plywood was selected). Fill these with wood filler designed to match light woods like birch and maple that takes stain and the filler will disappear into the random layering of the plywood end grain/long grain pattern. Don’t get obsessive about filling small imperfections say under 1/8” (2mm) as we will fill these using the poly as we work the surface smooth. Finish the priming stage with another coat of poly and sanding with 220 grit paper.

Once we have the surface filled and sealed we come to the step I find great fun and frustration all wrapped together (that statement betraying my borderline OCD tendencies). That is working to the final finish. As the plywood grain stops soaking up the poly it will begin to build up on the surface. At this point I switch to a routine of applying a coat of poly, let it cure for several hours/overnight, wet sand with 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper, clean surface, and repeat. This process is advancing by taking one step forward (another coat of poly) and half-step back (sanding part of it off). What it buys us is twofold; first removing any imperfections before they get imbedded in the poly, second flattening the surface. When you are wet sanding the water should sit on the poly’s surface otherwise apply more poly to seal the wood. Use a sanding block, I spray both the paper and surface. Sand gently as always being careful near any edges lest you sand through the building finish. Use an old towel or paper towels to wipe off the water and cut off finish slurry to judge your progress. At first you will see after sanding a mottled pattern of shiny low spots and dull cut down high spots. As you repeat the coat/wet-sand cycle and the surface builds and flattens a little sanding will yield a flat dull surface telling you it is getting there, nice and flat.

For some projects I have pushed it by only sanding between ever other coat of poly to get a faster build. In my constantly multiplexing life this was accomplished by getting up a little early so I could apply a coat in the morning to dry while I am at work. Another coat after work early in the evening that is dry enough to sand before I go to bed that night. This works but does not yield quite as fine a finish.

How far to take this is strictly up to you. Lots of fine woodworking projects are finished with thin finishes that let the wood grain texture show through. A little deeper build and the grain disappear under the finish where it just serves to catch the light. The deepest builds with polishing and we get the French polish a.k.a. ‘piano gloss’ finishes. As the build approaches the look I want I switch to 800 then 1000 grit wet sandpaper and/or polishing compound to literally get to a final polish. This gets us to a rich semi-gloss finish which in my opinion is the optimum end point for this process using Minwax Wipe-on Poly. For higher gloss let the final coats cure longer and you can polish it more aggressively.

However regarding very high gloss I have two warnings. If your heart is set on a very high gloss finish there is a limit to how much you can polish Minwax’s Wipe-on Poly. The issue here is polyurethane finishes build up in discreet layers. Really aggressive polishing and you can cut though the top layer and see the banding. This typically (always?) happens to the edges as we try and get then as glossy as the broad inner surfaces. This is discouraging to the max because we have the finish line in sight and now its repair time and back to the coat/sand cycle loop we go. So my advice is if you want really high gloss look into the processes like French polish shellac or lacquer for DIY or pay a sympathetic & adventuresome auto painter or cabinet builder to spray them in a dust controlled professional booth. Shellacs and lacquers melt their layers into each other as they are built up so you have to polish right through to the wood to jack that up. The finish is not a tuff and mar resistant as poly but more repairable. Always the trade-offs! The second point of going for deep high gloss with Minwax’s Wipe-on Poly is that it is nor a water clear finish. Built up to thick films we get a yellow gold tint. For many wood or stain colors this is an enhancement looking similar to amber tint shellacs. If your heart is set on something like light blond maple a water clear product is what you want.

Well, that’s a lot of info; Word says I am up to 5 pages and closing in on 3,300 words. We'll get this posted and let the discussions and progress reports continue. Questions welcomed.

Happy listening

Norman Tracy
Audio Crafters Guild

Outofthewoods

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  • Fallen Enclosures, Inc. Crafted with Passion
Re: The Stacked Baltic Birch N2X Ideas and Assembly Thread
« Reply #54 on: 21 Oct 2010, 05:48 am »
Speaking of the glue up I always use Titebond II wood glue and it has yet to let me down.

Any particular reason you don't use regular Titebond? Having the ability to remove the glue with a damp cloth (even after it has cured) would be ideal in these lamination builds. The water resistance which Titebond II offers is of no benefit in a speaker build.

Great post BTW! That would have taken me DAYS to write!!! :o

Ruben

praedet

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Re: The Stacked Baltic Birch N2X Ideas and Assembly Thread
« Reply #55 on: 22 Oct 2010, 12:54 am »
Thanks Norman, that is awesome!

jeffh

Re: The Stacked Baltic Birch N2X Ideas and Assembly Thread
« Reply #56 on: 22 Oct 2010, 03:04 am »
Thanks Norman, that is awesome!

I agree.  Thanks for posting. :thumb:

praedet

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Re: The Stacked Baltic Birch N2X Ideas and Assembly Thread
« Reply #57 on: 9 Jan 2011, 06:11 pm »
Man it has been a long time since I have done anything!!!!

Finished up 1 of the cross-overs today.  Too cold to do the cabinet work right now!  Sorry, these pics are from my phone...



Danny Richie

Re: The Stacked Baltic Birch N2X Ideas and Assembly Thread
« Reply #58 on: 9 Jan 2011, 06:13 pm »
Good work on the network. It looks very clean.

praedet

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Re: The Stacked Baltic Birch N2X Ideas and Assembly Thread
« Reply #59 on: 9 Jan 2011, 07:04 pm »
Thanks!  I looked at Sean's pictures of his Ninja Master Networks for the N2x for inspiration!