[2bigears]

   i did not see this coming one little bit.....started a new diggie front end with a mac mini, with Eric's DB-Tranguility  dac. all i can say is this little inexpensive system kicks real ass.i am not sure how or if 0 & 1 's can sound any better.i wanted a better sounding cd system for some time now and i really think this is the way to go.one side note is with 800 cd's loaded,your whole song list is in your hand with a ipod touch as a remote....all too cool and too easy.the sound blows me away to say the least.the better mastered cd's are mind-blowing....the fun has come back and it did not cost an arm and a leg......   the mac mini is cool,they[Apple] are making $325 million a day for a reason,they have some cool gear.Eric at DB is a super nice guy.wish i was as smart as he... system is  new to me,but i have to A-B the vinyl soon,will have to listen real close i can foresee.....vinyl is still cool....if you are not happy with your diggie world,try this stuff.........

[SteveRB]

I couldn't agree more.

i have a mac mini and a Fubar DAC... beats most mid-end cd players i've heard.

And i have about 400 movies on there already. And renting movies on iTunes is a breeze.

[TheChairGuy]

I'm pretty ecstatic over my digital system, too...but, it still doesn't measure up in realism and naturalness as my best vinyl system does.

It's refreshingly cheap, too.  Honestly, I haven't heard a truly bad digital player made in the past 5 years.  When you can buy something reasonably good for as little as $39 now (with remote!) - it's amazing.  The once-lowly CD has come a LONG way in 30 years...far further and cheaper than I ever thought possible.

I've got so little invested in my digital front end and I like it a lot.  Still, for truly satisfying events - vinyl still has it beat.  But, a lot of that is wholly cartridge dependent for me.  Only 3 of the 14 cartridges or so I have conclusively trounce my digital playback....and another 3 best it by a bit. 

There's a group of 5 more cartridges that sound fine...but, are debatable to me whether I'd rather be listening to digital or my vinyl

Hell, I never would've thought 5+ years ago that any digital system could beat any combination of TT/cartridge I have.  It's just great to have 2 quality sounding front ends at hand to play off at all times....that kind of luxury that didn't exist at all, in my opinion, 5+ years ago

John

[jsaliga]

For me it is not about the equipment or the formats, it's about the content.  Having both digital and vinyl gives me choices of content that I would never have if I stuck to just one or the other.

--Jerome

[BobM]

I felt the same way after my Ayre CX7-e came back from the "MP" upgrade. I really started thinking, if I heard this first I would have no desire for vinyl. Now, with some time behind me, I can appreciate the virtues of both, and for different reasons. Much of which amounts to all the records I own that I don't have duplicates of on CD, and I want to hear that music sometimes.

But yes, great digital can certainly approach great vinyl, although the super great vinyl ($$$$) still holds its own.

[woodsyi]

I keep both for mostly music as well.  There are tons of opera and classical recordings that are not available on digital.  For sheer musicality, I would go with analog if both formats were available.  OTOH, I go to digital when I am doing other things in the room because I just can't be bothered to flip the album frequently.  Redbook is good but not as good as 24/96.  I would imagine I would keep up with the hi-rez format for the future as I figure that is where we will go in the future.

[2bigears]

   John,you have the VPI Classic as your main spinner,?? right ? can you tell what 3 carts your ears like the best as i find that kinda info really good for all. Woodsyi,you bring up a point i too really wonder about,will diggie keep getting better ?? if the last while's improvements keep going,where will we be in 5 years ????  every 16 months diggie tech doubles,soooo how good will those 0's-1's sound.... also,are speakers being left behind,seems they are stuck in the mud,unless you have crazy cash....

[Letitroll98]

2bigears, I did the same thing a year or so ago, different equipment, but a DAC upgrade to my CDP.  I thought I had reached nirvana, sooo much better than the old CDP only system, surely putting my vinyl rig to shame.  And I posted same as well.  But in a short while when the euphoria wore off, I came down to earth and did some direct comparisons with identical selection of digital and vinyl, well as direct as one can get with the differing production in each, and vinyl won every time.  Albeit much closer than before, in some aspects the digital was better than vinyl now, but overall musicality couldn't be beat with vinyl.

I am still very happy with my digital upgrade, worth 10 times what I paid for it in sound quality improvements, but vinyl still rules on my estate.

[TheChairGuy]

  John,you have the VPI Classic as your main spinner,?? right ? can you tell what 3 carts your ears like the best as i find that kinda info really good for all. Woodsyi,you bring up a point i too really wonder about,will diggie keep getting better ?? if the last while's improvements keep going,where will we be in 5 years ????  every 16 months diggie tech doubles,soooo how good will those 0's-1's sound.... also,are speakers being left behind,seems they are stuck in the mud,unless you have crazy cash....

Actually, one of my JVC's DD's are my main spinners.  Tho I prefer the VPI Classic (slightly) for the HUGE soundstage and overall enjoyment....it's the convenience of auto functions and plenty good enough sonics on my JVC's that win out.

All of them come up with the same conclusion....3 cartridges stand tallest amongst the bunch. 3 after that are still better than my digi playback...the rest of the 14 after that it's a mostly subjective choice.

I'm not sure speakers have been left behind....I think to handle the increased dynamic range of digital (which starts at 96db and rises to 144db for DVD-A and Blu-ray now)....we need bigger rooms to accommodate the force.  Vinyl tends to sound best in small spaces...where their inherently lower dynamic range is less noticeable.   In an average sized room with above average equipment/cartridge...it's still the most musical choice around

John

[neobop]

For me it is not about the equipment or the formats, it's about the content.  Having both digital and vinyl gives me choices of content that I would never have if I stuck to just one or the other.

--Jerome

+1
I'm with you man. For me it's about the music. I gotta say though, digital wasn't too listenable, being relegated to the car or kitchen mostly, until Letitroll turned me on to an inexpensive DAC. What a difference!!!
neo

[Letitroll98]

Yeah neo, I'm sure there are much better DAC's than that little Chinese unit, but it's certainly the best bang for the buck I've yet encountered.  Apparently you can rip it open and mod up the analog stage and put a better power supply than the wall wart on it and significantly improve the sound, but I've been happy with stock so far.  For others reading the thread, it's the Beresford unit without the Beresford name or markup.

[TheChairGuy]

Yeah neo, I'm sure there are much better DAC's than that little Chinese unit, but it's certainly the best bang for the buck I've yet encountered.  Apparently you can rip it open and mod up the analog stage and put a better power supply than the wall wart on it and significantly improve the sound, but I've been happy with stock so far.  For others reading the thread, it's the Beresford unit without the Beresford name or markup.

Got a link on that overperforming/underpriced DAC, Letitroll?

I'm pretty smitten with what I have here....but I'm a sucka' for well priced gear that sounds great.

John

[Letitroll98]

Got a link on that overperforming/underpriced DAC, Letitroll?

I'm pretty smitten with what I have here....but I'm a sucka' for well priced gear that sounds great.

John

It's the JEC TC-7510 using the Crystal CS 8414 input receiver and a Burr-Brown PCM 1716 96kHz/24 bit converter.  These are two of my favorite sounding chips, a bit long in the tooth compared to the latest and greatest, but they still sound great.  Can't beat it for $109.95 US, Beresford shamelessly re-branded it as his own and sold it for I think about $250.00.

I can't swear to it, but I think I got it from this guy on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-S-PDIF-Analog-Stereo-Audio-Converter-TC-7510-/370399529838?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0

And the original link I saw it on was this one at MCM:
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/50-7774&CAWELAID=220554383

[2bigears]

   nothing better than a good buy......i know the drill on good sonics and the old vinyl-diggie battle.i really think the line in the sand is closer than ever with this Mac front end i have.you have your good mastered cd's and bad just like records,that makes a big dif.my tt is set up well with a value just south of 10 large.do the tt's next step up sound that much better as there are some smokin' deals these days like:::: the big Avid for 6 grand,with a used  tri-planar for 3 grand  and you got top-end near silly end of price-points if you bought new.also depends on what is in front of your diggie and vinyl,this is also very sound important.back ends for your front ends will make or break.i am tempted to take the next and last step in vinyl,but like always,a weeee bit on the cheap side.in the end,the black disc spinner rig will be 10 to 15 used,the diggie system will be 2.5k new,----there is that line in the sand again....

[kingdeezie]

This topic made me smile.

I keep going back and forth between selling my vinyl setup or not. 

It has the capacity to sound really good, but I just can't get it to ever do so consistently. I get a bunch of static all the time, and I can't figure out how to stomp it.

I bought a VPI Record cleaning machine that doesn't help. I have used steam cleaning, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. Its a PITA.

Even past all the trouble with the static, I can't get it to have the same presence as my digital setup currently; not the same dynamics or detail either.

I bought a PS Audio Perfect Wave and fitted it with a Synergistic Research Tesla T3 PC, and I can't say that I can complain too much about the sound. Its not as open (resolved) as the TT, but its more detailed and dynamic.

Theorectically, my analog should easily better the PS combo, but I can't say it does so anymore. Plus, the digital is so much easier to use.

I haven't turned my turn table on in months. 

[TheChairGuy]

Hey kingdeezie...yeah, we haven't heard from you in a while 

Here's a few things I found that keeps me clearly in front of digital...and I suspect, always will be (at least with Redbook).  For me, too, there's a snap/dynamics missing in most vinyl systems I hear...here's how I get around it:

* Use full functioned preamp:  Adding extra junctions is adding noise and degrading already weak signal quantity and quality.  The extra length of IC adds capacitance...reducing high frequency content with at least most moving magnets.

* Use a solid state full functioned preamp:  Add whatever flavor of sound you want at the amp stage (tube, SS, Tripath or 'Digital'), but the preamp stage should be solid state to provide the quietest amplification possible. If you choose a tube preamp, it's got to be strictly voltage regulated and only should be with the highest output (4mv and above) cartridges to keep noise at a minimum.

* Dual-Mono: Preamp and amps to your two stereo speakers.  Vinyl is inherent inferior to digital in stereo separation...preserving as much as you can of that is a tremendous way to hang with digital.  'Essentially' dual-mono (thru multiple stages of voltage regulation in your full functioned preamp and or amp) isn't the same as truly dual mono: defined as separate signal traces or paths with different voltage regulation on each stage or, going the distance now, entirely two separate transformers (truly, in this case, dual mono).  Everything else short of dual mono is potentially keeping your analog from sounding as good as your digital.

* Direct Drive or a tightly regulated speed controlled Belt Drive:  There's just no way around it...without pitch stability, vinyl sounds vapid next to Redbook.  The least one can do is skinny up the inherent difference between the technologies.

Note - I've not heard an Idler in my listening room, but these should be considered, too.

* Choose cartridges carefully:  The only cartridge I have found sounds fully unrestrained in dynamics are Grados (with Longhorns). Close seconds, with more finesse are Denon's and Stanton/Pickerings.  The London's may be in that place, too, but are frustrating to work with like the Grados.  This is very subjective.

* Fluid damping: Most cartridges that are lightly damped will benefit from fluid damping (Grados most of all).  You can control the tautness of the transient attack with fluid damping; a cartridge that is pre-damped heavily from the factory is doomed from the start. I have found for lightly damped cartridges fluid damping trumps electrical damping for benefiting sound. 

* Critical accessories: A Record Cleaning Machine and an Outer Ring Clamp.  Clear a good path for your needle to run in with an RCM.  Damp energies stores in the vinyl itself with an outer record clamp...while reducing warp induced wow that allows your cartridge to perform at a higher level.

* Longer than 9" arm:  Each extra inch tracks 10% better...that's the simple math of it.  Better tracking = less tracing distortion = clearer sound.  I'm not denigrating 9" arms, but you are a leg up on good sound using longer arms. 

There's a ton of little nuances that matter, too - proper stylus overhand, azimuth, a level and non-resonant playing surface, cleaning your stylus every few plays for crud and dust bunny build up...but these are things that get you in the game.  What I've written helps me to exceed the welcomed advance in good sonics now offered in today's digital technologies at increasingly attractive price points.

The above is my list - things I have found thru years of experimentation.  Not all agree and that's okay 

John

[Charles Calkins]

John:
 Fluid damping????????

  Please help this dumdum and explain it to me.

                              Cheers
                             Charlie

[TheChairGuy]

John:
 Fluid damping????????

  Please help this dumdum and explain it to me.

                              Cheers
                             Charlie

Ohhh stop Charlie...it's not that anyone is a dumb-dumb here...there's a lot to potentially absorb to milk the best from vinyl playback.  Which is why it'll always be the bastion of a few and not the many ever again. 

Despite that it can sound better than digital (trounces it in some cases), it takes knowledge to get you there.

With so few dealers around now to do the set up and guide on on your vinyl front end....it's an increasingly difficult task keeping folks informed.  The internet and this little vinyl outpost called The Vinyl Circle at AudioCircle, I hope, fills the void a little.

I cannot for the life of me remember what deck you are using now ...but if your maker doesn't offer fluid damping along with your tonearm, then you won't have access to it.

Except those with Technics SL-1200's....KAB makes a fluid damped trough one can add easily to any SL-1200.  It is this one (below) - and further explanation is there on KAB's website:


There is another type of fluid damping called pivot damping.  It is application of the same type of silicone gel to the arm pillar of tonearms so equipped.  If find it less effective than the other type with a damping trough.

Regards, John

[Charles Calkins]

John:
 Looks like my Rega P3-24 doesn't require fluid dampning. I'm trying to get back into a decent LP playback system. The Rega I have is not the answer. It's just okay. I tried a Grado Platinum 1 for a while and it had a better sound but still not to my liking. I'll keep trying. Maybe I'll get a good combination together someday that sounds good to me.

                                       Cheers
                                     Charlie

[TheChairGuy]

John:
 Looks like my Rega P3-24 doesn't require fluid dampning. I'm trying to get back into a decent LP playback system. The Rega I have is not the answer. It's just okay. I tried a Grado Platinum 1 for a while and it had a better sound but still not to my liking. I'll keep trying. Maybe I'll get a good combination together someday that sounds good to me.

                                       Cheers
                                     Charlie

Charlie,

I have little doubt that the P3-24 is a nice sounding deck...but, Rega's are among the very worst turntables to pair with Grados I've found.

I assume you experienced the dreaded hum when playing your Rega with the Grado?  That's because neither the Grado nor Rega motor is shielded...so the stray electromagnetic output of the Rega motors affects the Grado coils with bad results...that dreaded hum

It doesn't cost much for Rega to shield their motors - and this would not cause sonic degradation - but, there seems to be some case for sonic degradation of cartridge motors. 

Yes, the RB-251 tonearm has no fluid damping option...essential for Grados. The Rega tonearm is just a simple metal tube...not filled or damped internally even...about the only damping on is the black powder coat paint.  It's really a horrible combination for a Grado cartridge for this reason alone.

Not either makers fault actually....just one of the worst pairings of cartridge and tonearm out there for reasons overlooked by many.  A knowledgeable dealer that sold turntables as they did 30 years ago would likely know not to sell the two together...but, today there is a lack of vinyl knowledge in general..as it's such a small following today.

If you're looking to hear your Rega at it's best without spending a wad of cash - go buy at Denon DL-110 ($139 list) or Denon DL-160 ($179 list).  These are really hardy cartridges, easy to mount (clear color coded pins on the back) and sound excellent.  You don't need to change anything else in your system to enjoy them (they might sound a tad weaker in output than the Grado...just twiddle up your volume control)

Tho they cost far less than you paid for your Grado....they will sound altogether better on your particular turntable.

John