[BobRex]

Spot on. I don't know why manufactures won't supply or sell power cables that fully showcase their designs even if it results in a higher price. In my experience, even budget power cables from brands like Nordost and Transparent result in improvements.
rob

With the larger manufacturers I think it's a case on not wanting to get involved in:
1) the liability - few if any aftermarket power cords are UL listed.  This brings too many legal issues into the fray.
2) playing favorites - for the same reason most manufactureres won't recommend specific interconnects or speaker wires. 

[werd]

With the larger manufacturers I think it's a case on not wanting to get involved in:
1) the liability - few if any aftermarket power cords are UL listed.  This brings too many legal issues into the fray.
2) playing favorites - for the same reason most manufactureres won't recommend specific interconnects or speaker wires.

  Its pure audiophile politics, they do not want to alienate any potential buyers by endorsing a particular product plugged into their gear. Its that simple. It has nothing to do with an engineering stand point.

[sfraser]

Its pure audiophile politics, they do not want to alienate any potential buyers by endorsing a particular product plugged into their gear. Its that simple. It has nothing to do with an engineering stand point.

Or perhaps they feel they already equip the product with a fully functional cable   And don't feel there is any reason to "accessorize"?

Cheers and have a great weekend everyone.

[werd]

Or perhaps they feel they already equip the product with a fully functional cable ?

Of course it works..... it fits into the back of the amp with a good tight fit too. But it also shuts down part of the soundstage that i like when compared to different cords. So why bother?

[Berto]

Or perhaps they feel they already equip the product with a fully functional cable ?

Functional yes, but like anything that is tweak'able in life, aftermarket parts have the potential to add as well as subtract from the equation.

I too was a non-believer for a while. I was told by very accomplished, educated people who of course never tried after market cables , don't waste your time , they won't measure any differently.  Now that I've actually exprimented with three different PC's , I can now wholeheartedly conclude, in my system, they make a HUGE difference.

[BrystonFan]

Hi Everyone,

I thought I would contribute to this already started topic - in order to keep all the conversations related to this 'touchy' topic together.

Please, no tar & feathering the reporter.

I was back at Audio One in Concord on Saturday: "B&W/Rotel/Krell" dealer day.

I usually attend their annual Bryston & B&W days, and I found myself listening to the power cord demonstration put on by a Krell VP from Connecticut (Sorry, I'm terrible with names).
He was demonstarting their new Krell Vector HC power cable.
Each conductor in the cable is terminated with a gold-plated pure copper spade lug before insertion into the Furutech connectors. Final connection to AC power is made using Rhodium-plated pure copper blade terminals.

He was using the new Bowers & Wilkins 802 Diamonds  connected via Audioquest XXXX (I don't recall the name) speaker cable to a Krell Evolution series amp.

He played a Jennifer Warnes cut from a Krell CD player, first with the stock power cord and then with their new Vector power cable.

What's the motto, "Hearing is believing", I sure heard the difference. More spacious and detailed soundstage. I've never put much stock into fancy power cables, but this one sure was evident.

FYI: The 3 foot cable (15amp) version runs about $1,500 MSRP.

For that price, I think I'll start with a Torus unit first!

BrystonFan

[Elizabeth]

Going back to question asked about my trying 4B-SST2 in wall vs.Furman.
Yes, I have tried it.
As for why I chose Furman, I bought a Denon 4806 Receiver a few years ago and tried it with a cheaper Furman (with the cap booster) and it really was a magical sound. Without the Furman the sound was good, but with it was perfect. i returned THAT new furman and started watching for a used one that would be better. Luck had it i found THE BIG Furman within driving distance for $1,400. ($3,500. retail)
The Furman adds a warmth to the midrange in my Denon 4806 receiver (to Canton 300, 360 speakers,(which tend to be very accurate, but a bit dry sounding)) and makes them sound absolutely glorious!
And mostly creates a smoother upper frequency from Bryston 4B=SST2 (this may be due to cheaper DACetc, where I might enjoy the Bryston via wall more,, IF the digital I own were state of the art..??
Anyway, I use the Bryston via the Furman REF 20i (and for those who do not know, the Furman has a huge 'stiffening capacitor' ((the size of the BIG automotive market ones)) inside it to handle any voltage sagging.)
Also,(in reference to another question/response previously posted): both the Monster and the Furman have individual filtering for each duplex outlet, so the only issue is to worry about the 'pair' of items in each A/C duplex.. and for the Furman to have the Amps in the amp outlets, and on the Monster, to choose which level of filtering for the various items plugged in, as the Monster has several forms/levels of filtering in it. (two amp, two digital, one video, and one preamp)
======================
Asidefrom all this. The one thing clear is a vast gulf lies between the "Power cords make a difference" and the "Powercords are all the same" camps.
I agree that the majority (but not all) of the naysayers do so based on theory, and the aftermarket users based on experience.
I have stated before that i was a naysayer, until i tried the Pangea, which made a noticable difference in my prior amp. (Forte' 4a)
So keep it up, the battle may never end.. but the journey is fun too.

[redbook]

I can say that changing the cables has been an improvement on all 3 of my components. I have the BP25 and 4B ST amps. The cd player is my much loved BCD-1. The cables are Nordost's  Vishnus. Wider sound stage, a bit tighter base and some finer micro details have been realize.  No  regrets in the investment made.Redbook.

[robb]

Ditto. I have finally finished replacing the power cords in my system with two Nordost Vishnu, and the rest Nordost Magus. Improvents everywhere, but most especially has given my Thiels 2.4s more controlled output at their supposed bottom limit of 30 cps.

Rob

[redbook]

Yes, Robb, that base control is more pronounced through my JBL Ti's. with the Vishnus

[budt]

     What I would like to know is:
 1) if differences( in properly made cables) can't be measured then how do they decide on design criteria?
 2) what makes  these after market cables so darn expensive ie. $200- 20 grand for a 5 foot piece of copper?

  I can understand a few hundred bucks cause some of them just look cool but when we are talking thousands it just seems like a scam at that point( at least to me).

[S Clark]

After making a 7 wire weave PC, I can easily see why a manufacturer charges several hundred- it took me most of a day to put it together! However, after you get past $3-400, I suspect that you are buying reputation and prestige.

[konut]

     What I would like to know is:
 1) if differences can't be measured then how do they decide on design criteria?
 2) what makes  these after market cables so darn expensive ie. $200- 20 grand for a 5 foot piece of copper?

  I can understand a few hundred bucks cause some of them just look cool but when we are talking thousands it just seems like a scam at that point( at least to me).

Both great questions. The first question assumes that all a power cord does is transfer AC from the wall to the component on the other end. That assumption is flawed. As with any piece of wire, it will have measurable characteristics such as resistance, capacitance and inductance. Some will insist that those values are irrelevant for power cords. That would be wrong. I am not an engineer, nor pretend to be one. For the best explanation of why the electrical characteristics can influence the sound emanating from ones speakers I will have to link to a thread at the Squeezebox forum. I had not been given permission to quote the author, John Swenson.
 http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78938&page=3
The relevant posts are 21-35. The inference is that a cheaper PC can be better than a more expensive one depending on the construction of the power supply in the component. No way to predict in advance.
   I believe the 2nd question has already been answered by S Clark.

FWIW, I tried a Shunyata Venom 3 on my BDA-1 and hardly noticed any difference, and then tried a Mojo Audio Helix which, to me, was an audible improvement. As usual, YMM, or MN, V. Both those cords are under $200.

[turkey]

Both great questions. The first question assumes that all a power cord does is transfer AC from the wall to the component on the other end. That assumption is flawed. As with any piece of wire, it will have measurable characteristics such as resistance, capacitance and inductance. Some will insist that those values are irrelevant for power cords. That would be wrong. I am not an engineer, nor pretend to be one. For the best explanation of why the electrical characteristics can influence the sound emanating from ones speakers I will have to link to a thread at the Squeezebox forum. I had not been given permission to quote the author, John Swenson.
 http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78938&page=3

I saw jneutron take a stab at it too over on another forum. His argument was that a power cord with significantly different impedance than your house wiring could reflect RFI back into said house wiring, instead of allowing it into your equipment.

Perhaps he will comment further?

(Note that I remain skeptical about the audibility of such things, and also note that the fancy wire vendors don't give you real specs, so you won't know whether or not their product is going to be beneficial, or possibly even detrimental.)

The relevant posts are 21-35. The inference is that a cheaper PC can be better than a more expensive one depending on the construction of the power supply in the component. No way to predict in advance.

What I inferred from John Swenson's post is that the proper place to fix the problem is at the x-former, and not at the power cord. Swapping power cords will just be a crapshoot for the majority of consumers.

(Once again, I haven't seen any proof whether this effect is audible or not.)

[John Casler]

Both great questions. The first question assumes that all a power cord does is transfer AC from the wall to the component on the other end. That assumption is flawed. As with any piece of wire, it will have measurable characteristics such as resistance, capacitance and inductance. Some will insist that those values are irrelevant for power cords. That would be wrong. I am not an engineer, nor pretend to be one. For the best explanation of why the electrical characteristics can influence the sound emanating from ones speakers I will have to link to a thread at the Squeezebox forum. I had not been given permission to quote the author, John Swenson.
 http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=78938&page=3
The relevant posts are 21-35. The inference is that a cheaper PC can be better than a more expensive one depending on the construction of the power supply in the component. No way to predict in advance.
   I believe the 2nd question has already been answered by S Clark.

FWIW, I tried a Shunyata Venom 3 on my BDA-1 and hardly noticed any difference, and then tried a Mojo Audio Helix which, to me, was an audible improvement. As usual, YMM, or MN, V. Both those cords are under $200.

Good comments, and I have also been led to beleive that any time an electrical current is passed through a cable, it both transmits EMI and RFI, and receives EMI and RFI.

This then (if true) adds a potential sonically affected electical component to both the Power Cord, and any cords or cables near them, as well as any EMI or RFI from the connected components.  This then gets into shielding and dielectric charges and any number of affecting factors.

In all my years of listening, the most dramatic and to me startling differences have been when swapping power cords.  This is not what I would have thought, and it is purely subjective sampling and non-blind expereiments with friends and other serious audiophiles.

[konut]

I saw jneutron take a stab at it too over on another forum. His argument was that a power cord with significantly different impedance than your house wiring could reflect RFI back into said house wiring, instead of allowing it into your equipment.

Perhaps he will comment further?

(Note that I remain skeptical about the audibility of such things, and also note that the fancy wire vendors don't give you real specs, so you won't know whether or not their product is going to be beneficial, or possibly even detrimental.)

What I inferred from John Swenson's post is that the proper place to fix the problem is at the x-former, and not at the power cord. Swapping power cords will just be a crapshoot for the majority of consumers.

(Once again, I haven't seen any proof whether this effect is audible or not.)

All good points. jneutron is another highly respected engineer who allows for the possibility of PC audibility. Absolutely a crapshoot due to the differing design of various components power supplies, differing equipment interactions between individuals setups, and power grid peculiarities dependant on location. Another reason why specs, in this case, are irrelevant.

 "The proof of the pudding is the eating."
Or in this case, in the hearing. If you don't trust your own hearing no proof is possible. If you do, no proof is necessary, other than the hearing.

[turkey]

All good points. jneutron is another highly respected engineer who allows for the possibility of PC audibility. Absolutely a crapshoot due to the differing design of various components power supplies, differing equipment interactions between individuals setups, and power grid peculiarities dependant on location. Another reason why specs, in this case, are irrelevant.

No, I think specs and measurements in this case are quite relevant. Without them we're throwing dice and hoping for a winner. (And without controlled testing, we're not even trying to make sure the table isn't crooked.)

[GaryArthur]

Back in July reply #74 Skunard provided the following link:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html

Everything after that looks like looks like testimonials. I feel like I'm reading Sinclair Lewis' "Elmer Gantry". 

[John Casler]

While it is often fun (for some) to debate the "measured" versus "percieved" possibilities in audio gear, we have to understand that:

1) All things are not measurable

2) All things are not perceivable

3) All things perceived may not be measurable

4) All things measurable may not be perceived

You cannot measure a "thought" but you can perceive it

You can measure a brainwave from a thought, but cannot know what thought it represented, but you may have clearly perceived that thought. (or maybe didn't  which is ALSO not measureable)

You can measure something as simple as an EMG (Electromylograph) that tells that the brain sent a message to a muscle or muscles to act, but you cannot know how much muscle force was created, or exactly what the action was by looking at the measurements.

You can create and percieve that you caused a muscular force to lift or move something, but have no idea what EMG level was created.

A thermometer will tell you the precise temperature, but it will not tell you if you are feeling too cold or too warm.

You can know if you feel cold or warm, but not know the precise temperature.

Strangely enough extreme heat and cold "feel" the same, but we can clearly measure them.

Point being the debate regarding measurments and perceptions is interesting, but it will not be solved by any of the points presented. (including my own)

[GaryArthur]

TAS has just released their "Products of the Year" for 2010 and the co-winners in the power cord category are:

1. Shunyata Venom 3 at $95 each.
2. Wireworld Electra 5.2 at $360 each.

Just another opinion?

Gary