Expensive power cables?

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Napalm

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #100 on: 2 Aug 2010, 01:52 am »
So is that who told you to buy the panamax conditioners ?....... ha

They work as advertised. I.e. they will disconnect your equipment when the mains power voltage goes out of a certain range.

Now what's the advertising for your gutwire and how does it meet it.

Nap.  :wine:

Laundrew

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #101 on: 2 Aug 2010, 01:56 am »
So is that who told you to buy the panamax conditioners ?....... ha

If you only knew what my voices want me to do....

Be well...

Napalm

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #102 on: 2 Aug 2010, 02:10 am »
If you only knew what my voices want me to do....

Be well...

As long as Mrs. Laundrew hears the same voices you guys are good  :icon_twisted:

Elizabeth

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #103 on: 2 Aug 2010, 03:08 am »
I have been in the process of adding a handmade AC cable from my 'special' audiophile 20 amp outlet (which I use now with two 100 ft extension cords)
The handmade cord group is going over the ceiling to shorten the path to 30 ft. The AC wire is made up of two sets of twisted starquad runs on 12 gauge Milspec teflon 12 gauge silver plated copper wrapped tight with teflon tape. The two 12 gauge ground wires are 12 gauge, cheap insulation.
So, at this point I have the bundle tightly wrapped and up on the walls and over the ceiling. The ends are not connected, as my voltmeter needs a battery.. and I have to find the voltmeter.... (I may need to buy a new one!)
Anyway! Once I have this package done, I can fool around with trying the amp from a 'good' AC wire source.
As for the Furman,
I could NOT put all my stuff to the Furman. I have ALL the Furman outlets full AND ALL the Monster outlets full as it is now.
As it is, the pure analog are on the Furman plus ALL the video stuff. All the digital (audio) stuff in on the Monster.
Why diss' the Monster? It's a decent conditioner. I have a PS Audio too.. but i am not using that at the moment. (it's sitting unplugged on top of the Monster.)
ADDED: I have abandoned the kitchen wall outlet, and am pulling power from the wall directly behind my stuff. I put in a new Pass & Seymour 20 amp outlet (a common $3.00 one)
I realize i could run the other wire, but is is a problem if the owners find out..etc. So i give up on uber cool wires skyward.
« Last Edit: 11 Aug 2010, 01:41 pm by Elizabeth »

werd

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #104 on: 2 Aug 2010, 03:51 pm »
They work as advertised. I.e. they will disconnect your equipment when the mains power voltage goes out of a certain range.

Now what's the advertising for your gutwire and how does it meet it.

Nap.  :wine:

I don't know i have never read it. I have told you what i like about it. Pure honest testimony of that cable. Who cares what the babble says on the website.

werd

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #105 on: 2 Aug 2010, 03:58 pm »
I have been in the process of adding a handmade AC cable from my 'special' audiophile 20 amp outlet (which I use now with two 100 ft extension cords)
The handmade cord group is going over the ceiling to shorten the path to 30 ft. The AC wire is made up of two sets of twisted starquad runs on 12 gauge Milspec teflon 12 gauge silver plated copper wrapped tight with teflon tape. The two 12 gauge ground wires are 12 gauge, cheap insulation.
So, at this point I have the bundle tightly wrapped and up on the walls and over the ceiling. The ends are not connected, as my voltmeter needs a battery.. and I have to find the voltmeter.... (I may need to buy a new one!)
Anyway! Once I have this package done, I can fool around with trying the amp from a 'good' AC wire source.
As for the Furman,
I could NOT put all my stuff to the Furman. I have ALL the Furman outlets full AND ALL the Monster outlets full as it is now.
As it is, the pure analog are on the Furman plus ALL the video stuff. All the digital (audio) stuff in on the Monster.
Why diss' the Monster? It's a decent conditioner. I have a PS Audio too.. but i am not using that at the moment. (it's sitting unplugged on top of the Monster.)

I wasn't dissing the Monster cable. I was only asking if you ever had just tried plugging your amp into the wall and your source, pre into the furman? I guess that would mean unplugging a lot of stuff right now but at some point in past maybe you had done that.

etcarroll

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #106 on: 2 Aug 2010, 04:59 pm »
Elizabeth -

Doesn't Bryston recommend running amp direct to outlet?

I put in a hospital grade outlet, run amp direct to it. Other socket has a PS Quintet plugged in. Rest of gear goes to Quintet.

Just got my Wattgate IEC, will be making/finishing a power card for the Quintet. (I ordered wrong IEC 1st time).

Gene

brucek

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #107 on: 2 Aug 2010, 06:12 pm »
Elizabeth -

Hopefully, you realize you are not allowed to run a power cord or extension cord through a wall or over a ceiling. It must be approved fire resistent wiring that is either metal cased if run loose, or clamped every number of feet. It must be permanently installed and terminated in a box at both ends. Temporary (plugged in) wiring is not allowed in a wall.

brucek

KnowTalent

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #108 on: 2 Aug 2010, 07:20 pm »
I am a BIg power conditioner fan. I had several small, cheap units, then have had a Monster 7000SS for awhile. Recently aquired a used Furman REF 20i which is really great. The Furman is $3,500 new, I lucked out on a used one for $1,400. I use the Furman for all analog including amp, and the video stuff. The Monster is for all the Digital stuff.

You're on the right road with Furman :thumb:

They've been in business for almost 35 years now and have built an excellent reputation for the products they build for the professional music industry.  Engineering based upon sound principles, clearly stated measurements and total absence of marketing hype.

KnowTalent

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #109 on: 2 Aug 2010, 07:27 pm »
Elizabeth -

Doesn't Bryston recommend running amp direct to outlet?

I put in a hospital grade outlet, run amp direct to it. Other socket has a PS Quintet plugged in. Rest of gear goes to Quintet.

Just got my Wattgate IEC, will be making/finishing a power card for the Quintet. (I ordered wrong IEC 1st time).

Gene

Most power "conditioners" are going to serve as a bottleneck for any properly built amp therefore the amp manufacturer will recommend straight to the wall.  BUT if you take a lightning strike, it is much better to have some form of robust surge protection and live with any small sonic deficits imposed by the surge protection circuit.

sfraser

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #110 on: 4 Aug 2010, 01:46 pm »
Interesting thread.  :o. I trust the Bryston engineers with the cap's, transistors, and power supplies they have designed/chosen for their products. I think I will stick with the power cord they have chosen as well.

vegasdave

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #111 on: 5 Aug 2010, 02:39 am »
Same here.

werd

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #112 on: 5 Aug 2010, 03:11 am »
Interesting thread.  :o. I trust the Bryston engineers with the cap's, transistors, and power supplies they have designed/chosen for their products. I think I will stick with the power cord they have chosen as well.

How about trusting your own taste? No one says that you have to use anything but stock cables but try others and if you don't like them use the stock.  I love my 14B because it suits what i like not because its
made by Bryston.  Don't shortchange your enjoyment on blanket statements..

Berto

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #113 on: 5 Aug 2010, 03:12 am »
How about trusting your own taste? No one says that you have to use anything but stock cables but try others and if you don't like them use the stock.  I love my 14B because it suits what i like not because its
made by Bryston.  Don't shortchange your enjoyment on blanket statements..

Who put this thing together? Me, that's who! Who do I trust? Me!

sfraser

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #114 on: 5 Aug 2010, 05:49 am »
How about trusting your own taste? No one says that you have to use anything but stock cables but try others and if you don't like them use the stock.  I love my 14B because it suits what i like not because its
made by Bryston.  Don't shortchange your enjoyment on blanket statements..

I did trust my own taste, I bought a black amp, not silver. I chose one with handles, and I left the rubber feet on. If a power cable "catch's my eye, and drags it 15 feet" maybe I will try it. In the mean time I will let the power
supply do what was engineered to do.

Cheers and have fun! 

Moon Doggy

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #115 on: 5 Aug 2010, 06:28 am »


At the risk of sounding snobbish. I am really only trying to help people here. You will never get that kind of soundstage if you don't respect your AC in. And by that i mean no stock power cords and good  quality AC conditioned  delivery.

Especially on your source, power cords are paramount. Good cords will not antennae hash and they will improve  timing out your dac or cd over stock. Puting a stock cabled on the power amp nerfed it but it wasnt a noise issue.

I find it very sad that people miss out on this because they are so reliant on what they read on the net. All these posts rejecting power cords do nothing but wreck people's hobby. 

Its really sad to me that i hear  all these negative posts regarding power cords. They are so important !!!!

Agreed!! :thumb:

Here is an excerpt from an excellent post by Clay quoting a friend (who chooses to remain anonymous) on the problems of sources of noise on the typical home electrical circuits. Switching power supplies (computers, etc),fans, light dimmers, noise from other circuits spreading to the circuit your gear is on.

Dedicated circuits, power conditioners, cords, regenerators, etc are used.  Alan Maher has some products that make no sense at all ( at least to me) but work wonders on the soundstage, tone, and realism of the music.

Its all about the results.

Here's the excerpt from "AC Primer" post from CA:

"The power system in your house is really, really complicated. It may not look it, but it is. It is not only the delivery mechanism for 60 Hz power (50 Hz in many parts of the world), but also is an unwitting connection system between everything plugged into it.

For now, we’ll entirely ignore the radiative aspects of the home power system. By those I mean radiation of noise as well as capturing various undesirable signals that are already floating about, like radio signals, wireless signals, TV, and so on. These are real bona fide conditions that can be major PITA problems, but that goes way beyond Mac Mini power supplies.

Think about what happens in your house, after the breaker or fuse box. (Lots of badness takes place outside the house, but let’s skip this one, too.) You have cables of various lengths that often have non-linear loads attached along their way at various points. What’s a non-linear load? Anything that distorts the waveform of the 50/60 Hz voltage waveform. Unfortunately, almost every load in a modern home aside from incandescent lamps and electric heat is non-linear. If DC is used in the load, the AC must be converted to DC. This is usually a non-linear process. More on this in a bit.

Non-linear loads draw current in some way different from a pure sine wave. This causes harmonics of the line voltage to be placed on the line as well as various artifacts that are nominally secondary to the actual power process.

The reason these harmonics and artifacts are important is because audio equipment is imperfect with regard to “ignoring” impure AC supply voltages. The simple harmonics of the line frequency usually are not so much of a problem, since similar harmonics are generated within the audio equipment and are normally considered in the design and execution of the product. The ones that really are a problem are normally between 50 KHz and 5 MHz. Since these are outside of what is normally considered the frequency range of what people can hear and loudspeakers can reproduce, why do we care?

Audio amplifiers and processing equipment, even those “competently designed and manufactured so that they all sound the same,” often respond to higher frequencies. Yup – it’s true. Not only do they respond linearly at these frequencies, they also often respond non-linearly to higher frequencies. Even look at the data sheets for the most popular opamps. As a simple example, notice how even some simple amplifiers can detect and play back radio signals, sometimes even quite loudly. This is one of those situations where you’ll need to do your investigations as to why this may be – it’s a long explanation. For the moment, please just go along and accept that this is true.

The non-linearity of the amplifiers at these frequencies can cause problems in the audio band, even if the amplifier is essentially perfectly linear within the audio band itself. Not that any amplifier really is perfectly linear… For example, imagine that somehow two high frequency signals manage to find their way into your amplifier. Let’s assume that these two signals are at 211 and 212 KHz. Way outside the audio band, right? Well, if applied to an amplifier that isn’t especially linear at ~200 KHz, you’ll get harmonics of the 211 and 212 KHz signals at the output, which you can’t hear. You’ll also get an intermodulation product at the sum of the two (423 KHz) as well as at the difference of the two – 1 KHz. Even I can hear that – you probably can, too. That’s not even thinking about the higher order IMD products that fall into audio range as well as out. Nor is it considering the effect of these signals on the operating conditions of the devices within the audio band. ...

Of course, that was really a highly simplistic example. It’s more likely that the high frequency signals will not be simple sine waves, but rather complex signals that are likely additionally modulated by other complex waveforms and noise. The products of these that fall into the audio band are equally ugly and can sound like modulation of the noise floor or other nasty garbage that your auditory system will have a hard time processing. Simple harmonic structures occur in nature and even in your ears, so harmonics of the music are the least of your worries."


werd

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #116 on: 5 Aug 2010, 06:46 am »
^^^^^

Agreed back at ya.

The thing is this has nothing to do with taste and comparison. Its hard to develop what you like (taste in soundstage) if AC born  noise is the major contributor.

Here is an eg: Its like developing a food taste. In this case noise is ketchup. How will you know what food your really like if its completely drenched in ketchup?  You cant know unless you get rid of the ketchup(noise). 


skunark

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #117 on: 5 Aug 2010, 06:58 am »
Some parts of the world it's also consider rude to put ketchup, salt or pepper on your steak.

robb

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #118 on: 6 Aug 2010, 02:44 am »
Spot on. I don't know why manufactures won't supply or sell power cables that fully showcase their designs even if it results in a higher price. In my experience, even budget power cables from brands like Nordost and Transparent result in improvements.

rob

brucek

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #119 on: 6 Aug 2010, 12:03 pm »
Quote
I don't know why manufactures won't supply or sell power cables that fully showcase their designs even if it results in a higher price.

Manufacturers rely on their engineers to determine power cord specifications required to properly supply the amplifier design. Aftermarket power cords are marketing, and offer no valid scientific support for their claims. An engineering department will not recommend a power cord that doesn't offer a measureable benefit to the manufacturer. The audiophile may claim they hear a difference, and so have the right to substitute any cord they wish..

brucek