Expensive power cables?

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werd

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #80 on: 1 Aug 2010, 12:52 am »
Werd,

Do you connect your 14B to a power conditioner or straight to the wall?     

If you use a power conditioner between the outlet and your amp, do you use a gutwire there as well?    For either answer, what do you use between the house breaker box and the outlet?

No i plug my 14B right into the wall. I use the my rm20 (overkill) on a balance line for everthing else.  House wire is just 14 run of the mill to my amp but i use 10 gauge to my rm20. 

skunark

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #81 on: 1 Aug 2010, 01:00 am »
One way to look at the "last few feet" of the wire..
The very last few feet, the electricity changes in amazing ways: It stops being a continuous 60HZ 120volt signal, and becomes an incredibly complex waveform we call music. All that happens in the VERY last few feet of the electrical path.
So........
(not to fight.. just a comment..)
I think you mean alternating current, perhaps unfiltered, and maybe not as clean as one would like... continuous is direct current. 

Edited:

I should add the word "zing" to this to minimize the harshness after re-reading it lol..

skunark

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #82 on: 1 Aug 2010, 01:03 am »
I beleive that this would be the best route to go by far with a dedicated outlet :thumb: I would probably still purchase Argentum power cords for my amplifiers to match my audio cables - my vanity peeks out once again  :P

Be well...
Sadly I'm unable to find cheesy quotes from these guys other than "engineering truth"... but they do make a pretty cable...   

werd

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #83 on: 1 Aug 2010, 01:13 am »
My soundstage has come a long way from the days with my 4bsst. Right now i have excellent high freq control with nice air. The only treble information i hear is by the instruments. I do not have any high freq glare that smears right across the soundstage. I have really nice positioning of all instruments. When i hear treble i only hear it from the individual instruments. It does not smear at all. This is can be a bit of a shock to people as its not what they are use to.  I would imagine it would sound dark to some people but it really isnt. All the instruments really have strong treble response when you listen to it. Its just not smeared all over so it can be a shock to anyone not use to it.

I bring this up because when i put the stock cable back on my 14B  still had a nice treble but it didnt dazzle.. It was dark. Everything just shrunk a bit and all instruments just sort got sucked into each other. When i put my gutwire back on it all came back. Like i mentioned i have excellent high freq control. That gutwire just energizes it with no smear (or the best i have heard). It opened all back up to where i want to be.

so for me the stock cable makes zero sense. I am not going to nerf my soundstage by using something that is clearly inferior. Why would i do that?

Hello

At the risk of sounding snobbish. I am really only trying to help people here. You will never get that kind of soundstage if you don't respect your AC in. And by that i mean no stock power cords and good  quality AC conditioned  delivery.

Especially on your source, power cords are paramount. Good cords will not antennae hash and they will improve  timing out your dac or cd over stock. Puting a stock cabled on the power amp nerfed it but it wasnt a noise issue.

I find it very sad that people miss out on this because they are so reliant on what they read on the net. All these posts rejecting power cords do nothing but wreck people's hobby. 

Its really sad to me that i hear  all these negative posts regarding power cords. They are so important !!!!

skunark

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #84 on: 1 Aug 2010, 01:15 am »
In the spirit of potentially excessive habits... I have this strange desire, almost a zeal to have multiple power conditioners that will isolate each component group.. pre-amp, analog, digital, etc. sadly most if not all power conditioners only isolate at the plug vs at each outlet group.   Can you imaging that cost?   I have at least managed to keep the cd-player, separate from the dac, but the dac is shares the same power conditioner as the pre-amp, turn-table and tuner, which they are all off when not in use.

skunark

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #85 on: 1 Aug 2010, 02:07 am »
If any, perhaps a manufacture, a printed or online magazine, or even someone at AC would provide measurements that would demonstrate noise rejection, current flow, capacitance, and resistance or perhaps a more reasonable measurements for aftermarket power cables...I would still probably question their methods but I would be receptive of the need for a power cable.  I don't have a shielded chamber or the right test equipment to test current flow, but I do have a multimeter that can check capacitance and resistance.  I can even measure the noise on my AC lines... 

For good or bad, I do question everything, even my ears, and especially when spending a few hundred on copper cable.  I'm amazed that some days sound better than others and the only difference perhaps is my mood, my blood alcohol level or humidity.  I can easily spot a bad recording, differences between speakers and when my speakers have been moved.  But when I detect slight differences between sessions, i do question it, even when I replaced some aging cables, i questioned that I didn't notice a difference.

I also understand there are different cables with specifications that one has to manufacture to, mostly for adequate shielding, correct termination, etc, and almost always required for digital signals (sata, cat5,6, arinc, hdmi, etc).  It's not hard to measure this stuff...

Also, If someone wanted to spend some cash on a power cable like Laundrew to match his interconnects, I would consider it expensive, but that's cool he's going for a look.  I don't see that as any different then someone tricking out their car or truck.   I don't think it makes any since to lower a four-wheel drive SUV, or raise a two-wheel drive trunk, but more power to them.   


Phil A

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #86 on: 1 Aug 2010, 02:59 am »
In the spirit of potentially excessive habits... I have this strange desire, almost a zeal to have multiple power conditioners that will isolate each component group.. pre-amp, analog, digital, etc. sadly most if not all power conditioners only isolate at the plug vs at each outlet group.   Can you imaging that cost?   I have at least managed to keep the cd-player, separate from the dac, but the dac is shares the same power conditioner as the pre-amp, turn-table and tuner, which they are all off when not in use.

I could be wrong but from memory the discontinued Van Severs Model 85 reference did have capability of isolating in banks of two.  You were also able to get it configured for digital equipment too.  I have one in secondary basement system (which doesn't see tons of use).  I have a Torus and a couple of Richard Gray units in the main system

Phil A

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #87 on: 1 Aug 2010, 03:06 am »
In the spirit of potentially excessive habits... I have this strange desire, almost a zeal to have multiple power conditioners that will isolate each component group.. pre-amp, analog, digital, etc. sadly most if not all power conditioners only isolate at the plug vs at each outlet group.   Can you imaging that cost?   I have at least managed to keep the cd-player, separate from the dac, but the dac is shares the same power conditioner as the pre-amp, turn-table and tuner, which they are all off when not in use.

There's some info here down the page a bit on the Model 85 -  http://www.soundstage.com/noisy15.htm

My unit was configure for digital equipment.

skunark

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #88 on: 1 Aug 2010, 06:04 am »
Thanks Phil.  I can't seem to find a website for them.   Perhaps Torus will provide this in the future...

I guess though my point was perhaps I will get excessive on something based on a reason when infact it might not even matter in the end.   

Elizabeth

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #89 on: 1 Aug 2010, 06:10 am »
I am a BIg power conditioner fan. I had several small, cheap units, then have had a Monster 7000SS for awhile. Recently aquired a used Furman REF 20i which is really great. The Furman is $3,500 new, I lucked out on a used one for $1,400. I use the Furman for all analog including amp, and the video stuff. The Monster is for all the Digital stuff.

Phil A

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #90 on: 1 Aug 2010, 12:03 pm »
Thanks Phil.  I can't seem to find a website for them.   Perhaps Torus will provide this in the future...

I guess though my point was perhaps I will get excessive on something based on a reason when infact it might not even matter in the end.

They are out of business (although I believe Mike Vansevers is still around) probably 2-3 years.  When I got the Torus, I and listened for a bit, I decided to move it to the basement (I have the 2 Richard Gray units anyway and a PS Audio Ultimate Outlet for the projector on the other side of the room).  It was a few weeks before I got to hook it up in the basement and I noticed that the LED on the front was out (but didn't bother to test the unit as it would have been no big deal as it is hidden in the unfinished part of the basement behind the rack recessed into the wall) and I went to their website which was still up and took about a week to get the box in the garage attic to ship it off.  I then called and the line was not active and a day or two later the website was gone.  I paid to have it repaired (although I wouldn't have bothered as was only cosmetic on front and you can't see it - when I flipped on the switch and the LED didn't work I could not see the front of the equipment I had plugged into it as it is facing into the room and I assumed it didn't work) and I pretty much shift stuff to the basement rather than sell it as long as it is better than what I am using.

Napalm

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #91 on: 1 Aug 2010, 12:12 pm »
Werd, have you considered moving to Pickering and wiring the whole house with gutwire? You won't believe the improvements......

Nap.  :P

Waker

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #92 on: 1 Aug 2010, 08:01 pm »
It's interesting to read how we arrive at our beliefs about cables, outlets, wiring, cords, conditioners.  We are usually confident in our decisions in having purchased better amps, speakers, players, etc, because we easily hear the improvements.  We are convinced empirically, that is, not by prior knowledge, but by experience and observation.  We did not have to be electrical engineers to hear and enjoy those improvements.  But the cable and cord naysayers throw up this wall of defense by insisting on bench measurements that are quantifiable, when most of us base our audio opinions on qualitative measurements-- on what we experience.    

With that said, here are my findings over 12 years of listening to several levels of gear in the same room.  Dealing with the AC power supply that comes into your home is an absolute necessity. That current is unstable and noisy for audio/visual purposes.  It is fine for your air conditioner, furnace, washer and dryer, range and garage door opener, ceiling fans and the dozens of other plug-ins you have.   But all of those devices and appliances cause voltage drops and switching noise in your circuits, so a dedicated circuit for your system is paramount, and it should be robust, preferably 240 volts in terms of the North American, 120 volt standard. Then one needs a stand-alone product, such as a Torus or Richard Gray isolation transformer that plugs into that 240v receptacle and converts back to 120V.  I only mention these based on my experience and because Torus is endorsed/used by Bryston, and my dealer here only offers "best in class" products, including Richard Gray and Bryston.  Now you have your own private, plentiful power supply that is stable and protected against surge.  This a fundamental requirement in high-end audio/visual. Amps and other high-demand components plug directly into the transformer.  You also must further remove noise from your front-end equipment with a large conditioner designed to serve those pre-amps turntables, players, dacs, TVs, and computers. I happen to use a Richard Gray 1200, again plugged directly into a 240/120V transformer.  Torus appears to offers all-in-one models that both isolate and condition--I have not tried them--cannot speak from experience there--someone please verify. 

Forget about cheap power strips and conditioning receptacles and cryogenics, lamp cord, stock speaker cable sold by the foot. Power cords should be large.  Cable terminations should be soldered and have generous, large, gold spades or pins--lots of contact surface there.  Interconnects should be balanced for further noise rejection. Speaker cables must be overbuilt, well-insulated.  Any cheap cable or interconnect between any of your components is at some point going to be of a length to act as an antenna for some segment of the transmission band.  You can count on that.  No part of your system should be ordinary, Ok?  Unless you are a DIYer, you have to spend some money on these things, sorry to say.  If you want a BMW or an Audi, you have to buy one.  If you want to truly take high-end to its potential, you must attend to these less glorious, but fundamental rules.  I don't want to come off as a snob or a know-it-all--what I know is what I have learned through experience and by listening to my high-end retailer, who has offered and auditioned much of the finest gear made over the past 30 years. (And I drive a Saturn.)                   

vegasdave

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #93 on: 1 Aug 2010, 08:09 pm »
Cool. Thanks for the info.

Berto

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #94 on: 1 Aug 2010, 08:17 pm »
Not everything that is measureable can be heard and not everything that is heard can be measured. 

werd

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #95 on: 2 Aug 2010, 12:37 am »
I am a BIg power conditioner fan. I had several small, cheap units, then have had a Monster 7000SS for awhile. Recently aquired a used Furman REF 20i which is really great. The Furman is $3,500 new, I lucked out on a used one for $1,400. I use the Furman for all analog including amp, and the video stuff. The Monster is for all the Digital stuff.

He Elizabeth

Have you ever tried plugging your 4B into the wall and everything else into the furman and not using the Monstercable?

vegasdave

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Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #96 on: 2 Aug 2010, 12:57 am »
Good question...

Napalm

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #97 on: 2 Aug 2010, 01:40 am »
Not everything that is measureable can be heard and not everything that is heard can be measured.

Sometimes I hear voices that I cannot measure, quantify or record. However They tell me what to do and I trust Them.

Whahahahaha.

Vicious Nap.  :icon_twisted:

werd

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #98 on: 2 Aug 2010, 01:48 am »
Sometimes I hear voices that I cannot measure, quantify or record. However They tell me what to do and I trust Them.

Whahahahaha.

Vicious Nap.  :icon_twisted:

So is that who told you to buy the panamax conditioners ?....... ha

Napalm

Re: Expensive power cables?
« Reply #99 on: 2 Aug 2010, 01:48 am »
^^^ Sorry guys too much  :smoke::wine: this long weekend.

Nap.  :oops: