[Wayne1]

The DAM and friends got together today at Tyson's new place.

I brought a freshly modded Panasonic SA-XR45, a modded M-Audio SuperDac, and an Audcom AD-120 preamp.

First off, Tyson's new place is a major step up from his old apartment. Serious killer views. He is in some dire need of room treatment. I took a few photos and hopefully will get some time later to post them.

The SuperDAc does live up to it's name. I thought it was at least equal to Tyson's Mensa DI/O. It was a bit smoother and easier to listen to.

The Audcom preamp sounded really good for $330.00 including remote, phono pre-amp and headphone amp. A couple of people remarked on how good it looked. It was a little soft on the low end and a touch rolled off on the top end compared to Tyson's AVA, but really good for the price. With a few mods, it should be a super value.

For the "main" event, I hooked up the Panasonic with two pair of NITRO speaker wires to Tyson's RM-40s. The Panasonic was used in Party mode.
We used a few different discs and took a bit of time dialing in the 40s and the Panasonic to each other.

Once again the Panasonic had NO trouble driving these speakers. There was plenty of volume and LOTS of bass. The most dramatic change happened when I installed a pair of Speaker Level Purifiers with "Bybee Inside". They make a HUGE difference to the overall quality of the sound. We also compared the difference between a straight digital cable and one with a Bybee adaptor. There was an improcement, but not as great as with Bybee purifiers in the speaker lines.

After hearing this today, I will be making the Bybee Purifiers an option to be added to the upgraded internal speaker cables. They will cost $100.00 for each purifier added. These are the Large Purifiers. The new Slipstream Purifiers cannot handle the current requirements of full range speaker outputs.

We also compared a digital cable I made using the NextGen WBT connectors and Tyson's Cryo'ed Silver Bullet Digital. Jason felt that the WBT cable allowed far more definition and emotion through. I will also soon be making these connectors an option for all my cables.

I had to leave shorlty after this comparison. When I was leaving the group was starting to listen to PeteG's modded Carver ZR amp. Hopefully the rest of the guys will add their thoughts.

[bubba966]

So Wayne, were the Nextgen WBT's the copper or silver version?

And what do the silver Nextgen's cost compared to the silver Eichmann's?

Do you have a preference between them?

[Wayne1]

They were the Copper NextGen vs the Silver Bulet.The Silver NextGen I have not tried yet. The copper are $28.50 EACH and the Silver $48.50 EACH.

I will be ordering some of each this week.

[Wayne1]

Here are some photos from the session:



This is the view from Tyson's balcony looking south at the Denver Botanic Gardens



This is looking west towards the foothills.



Here is his new room arangment with some of the gear we listened to



Here is a little closer shot the the modded Panny, on top of Tyson's stock Panny, on top of the AVA power amp. The Audcom preamp is on the right on top of the nOrh CD-1 player. The M-Audio SuperDac is on top of the Audcom.

We had a very good turnout. Jerry (Turk) was there and enjoyed Scotch sampling from Tyson's stash. Mike Galusha, PeteG, Sean (Sunshinedawg), Gary (owner of a pair of The Excelarray), and the always special Jason (Pez).

I do hope that the others will add their comments to this thread. I do know that Tyson does not have internet access hooked up in his new digs yet and Jason has forgotten how to post

[sunshinedawg]

After the first session with the 45 at Tyson's old place,  I was 99% sure of how good it was(Wayne already has my panny ).  Now I am 100%.   Taking in to account all that you get, pre-amp, amp, tuner, dac and for me, HT, it is a no-brainer.  

I was really interested in how the panny would sound with, w/o the bybees.  I know that everybody doesn't believe they work.  Let me tell you that the panny likes the bybees, in fact it needs them.  Wayne tried all kinds of configs.  The best sounding by far was the coax with bybee adaptor AND the speaker level bybee purifiers.  I commented that the a/b with speaker level bybees sounded like a different component was inserted.  The music and sonics w/o the bybees were AWFUL and unacceptable.

Some of the music we listened to was Dianne Reeves.  She sounded silky smooth on the panny     I think the highlight of the day was when Wayne put on a drum track from a Burmeister sample disc.  I have NEVER heard bass like this b4!  It was tight, powerful and the panny had total control of it(Wayne took the cover off the 45 after this track and let us touch the amp section, it wasn't even warm!).  The hairs on the back of my neck were standing up.  I think everyone in the room was pretty much floored.  Someone mentioned that the dishes were rattling in the kitchen

Just for grins and giggles, I brought my panny xp-30 dvd player over to see how it would sound as a transport(it only has an optical out)  All I can say is it didn't suck!  I was pleasantly surpised, even using a cheap monster cable.  I definitely want to invest in a good transport and coax cable, but I know there are some people who are interested in using the optical input of the 45.

[PeteG]

I would like to say I had a very nice time at Tyson's place and as Wayne said he has a awesome view.
  I'll just touch on what I thought was the two pieces of equipment that stuck out too me and that was Wayne's M-Audio superdac and the amazing modded XR45. To me the M-Audio superDac compared to the Tyson's DI/O (don't know the modds done to it). Both had detail/resolution on par with each other but the SuperDac came across alot smoother/effortless and coherent a very nice dac.

  I was very sceptic of the modded XR45, I've owned a XR25 for 6 months now and although it's a nice amp it was far from a giant killer. It was apparent from the start the Bolder/XR45 was special, using the digtail input. The amp controled the RM40's with aggressiveness, all areas of good sound was there (PRaT),detail and midrange smoothest with no irritating qualities what so ever even the top end.

  So after listening a bit we all whated to know how the Bolder/XR45 could drive the RM40 with some good bass, and I had right disc for the job, Burmester CD III/Yim Hok-Man "Poem of Chinese Drums", and let me tell ya it got are attention real fast the bass coming
out of the RM40's was amazing to say the least, I don't know what the Xmax of the woofers are but they had to be close to it on this track.

So at the end of our session, I was a believer in Wayne's Modded XR45, a true giant killer he did a great job.
I would also recommend using Bolders Speaker Purifiers w/Bybees with the Bolder/XR45.

My 2ch System:

VPI 19 w/ TNT platter
Krell SACD player
AVA modded T7 preamp
Simaudio W-5 amp
Carver Modded ZR1600 amp
Gallo Nucleus Ref speakers
DIY stereo Adire DLP-12 subs
Balanced Power BP-1
DIY silver cables
Pics in gallery

[gme109]

The DAM and friends got together today at Tyson's new place.

I brought a freshly modded Panasonic SA-XR45, a modded M-Audio SuperDac, and an Audcom AD-120 preamp.


First off I'd like to say that  had a great time hanging out at Tyson's new apartment, sipping on scotch and meeting with some new audiophile's.

Well I was highly suspicious of the modded Panasonic  producing any kind of decent sound when I first saw it. Even though I was somewhat opened mined because I own a Spectron Musician II digital amp. But the Panny is a small 9 lb. box that really does not look all that impressive.   Well after getting acquainted with the sound of Tyson's set-up with his AVA preamp, amp and modded Dio, Wayne hooked up the Panny. My first thought after a few seconds had pasted was, this thing is not only decent, it's damn good! It really does kind of take you back at first, you hear this authoritative sound coming out of these large speakers  hooked up to this puny amp, it just does not compute. I was hearing a tighter, more authoritative bass, greater transparency and detail along with better image specificity. But after more listening I stated to become aware of a slightly forward and somewhat aggressive midrange on certain tracks. The Panny lost out to the AVA when it came to midrange smoothness, this was before the Bybee speaker filters were in place though. What everyone heard as well as myself when the Bybee speaker filters  were installed was nothing short of amazing! Not only did the midrange become a lot smoother and more nature sounding but the bass got a lot tighter. I've experienced this same kind of thing when using the Shakti stone and ERS sheet on my Spectron. Apparently all digital amps benefit greatly from tweaks that address RFI and EMI.  Actually I'm not sure what  the Bybee filters address but I intend on giving them a try in my set-up after hearing what they did for the Panny. Although I can't really give the Panny a thorough critique without hearing it in my own system first, I will say I was more than impressed.

I would also like to comment on the modded M Audio dac. I must have been standing in the other room when Wayne swapped out the Dio for the M Audio dac . I  was not aware of an equipment change when I reentered the room but my ears quickly picked up on  a much more refined , natural and relaxed sound. I soon discovered the M Audio dac had replaced the Dio. For all those who considered the modded Dio a giant killer, you should check out the modded M Audio dac. I also understand that  M Audio has a USB dac. What do you think Wayne, could this dac be modded as well?

[Mathew_M]

Actually I think those Radii tube amps would look right at home in that fireplace.

[Mathew_M]

So for those of us who own the XR25 will the bybees have the same effect on eliminating the forward glare on the top end?  This is my only real problem with the unit.

[ekovalsky]

Yikes, a brick wall in between the speakers  

http://www.acousticsfirst.com

http://www.foambymail.com

http://www.realtraps.com


The view will be great once things start greening up!  Spoiled here in Phoenix, got the new pool filled today and palm trees and hibiscus to be planted this week  

[Carlman]

Was the Audcom preamp used or compared to the Panny?
Any comments on it?

[Pez]

I'll add my comments. I hate Tyson for getting so lucky in THE ABSOLUTELY BEST VIEW OF DENVER YOU COULD POSSIBLY IMAGINE.  Now that I got that out of the way I will get to the down and dirty.  I truely believe the bolder modded panny unit is revolutionary.  I couldnt believe that such a small, shitty, laugable looking unit could sound so incredible. I simply can not say enough about this unit.  This really changes things for newbies and veterans in the hobby.  Smooth from top to bottom, powerful (they drove the RM40s for crying out loud), and wonderful.  They only thing it lacked for me was that tubey warmth that of course not solid state unit I have heard can obtain (errrr in this case I guess I mean digital or solid state )  I strongly believe that this unit is cause for a lot of commotion.  For me though..... I doubt it will work for my system due to the active crossover and subs   .The rest of the stuff was interesting. The DAC sounded awesome, the new nexgens were very nice, but overall the Bolder mod panny overshadowed everything else.

Thanks for the scotch Tyson.

[Jay S]

Excellent stuff, guys!

The digital revolution is here.  I am actually entertaining thoughts of selling my dacs + Joule tube pre + eAR digital amp in favor of a modded Panny w/ Bybee's on the speaker outputs.

[Wayne1]

The Audcom preamp was used and I commented on it:

The Audcom preamp sounded really good for $330.00 including remote, phono pre-amp and headphone amp. A couple of people remarked on how good it looked. It was a little soft on the low end and a touch rolled off on the top end compared to Tyson's AVA, but really good for the price. With a few mods, it should be a super value.

I have never heard a Panasonic SA-XR25 so I cannot say that using Bybee Purifiers on the speaker connections would remove your objections to it. I can say that in every system I have heard Bybee Purifiers in , I felt they improved the overall sound quality more than enough to justify their price. This includes VMPS 626Rs being driven by tube amps, pro audio amps and digital amps.

Using a Speaker Level Purifier with "Bybee Inside" (I have to use this wording to make sure no one confuses product I make with that made by Jack Bybee ) will smooth out a lot of the rough edges from the Panasonic digital receivers. I have found in the course of my mods to the SA-XR45, that the speaker connectors, wiring and power supply all contribute to the "harshness".

It is possible that just using a pair of purifiers will make the sound of the Panasonic digital receivers more acceptable. I can build a set using a pair of bananas or Eichmann Bayonets to fit the stock binding posts and terminate them with a very good pair of direct gold plated binding posts. That way you can use any of your present speaker wire that may be terminated with spades.

I do not feel that this will come even slightly close to the modded unit, but it will give some folks a chance to see how good the Panasonic can sound. If anyone wishes to go ahead and get their SA-XR45 modded after trying out the purifiers, I can build them into the Panny.

BTW when we first listened to Tyson's system with the AVA gear, he had a pair of jumpers installed on his RM-40s that have Bybee Purifiers built into them. When I installed the second set of speaker wire, I removed the jumpers. So the first listening to the Panny was in comparison to "Bybee'd" AVA gear.

[Tyson]

Well, now that I'm at work with internet access, I can add my comments.  I'm lucky to have moved in to a new place with a much better listening area than my old place, that alone has given the sound of my system a boost.  As has been noted it does need some room treatment, and my wife is ammenable to letting me do it too, so we all know what my next purchase is going to be.

Having everyone over was great, all the toys were great to look at, and I got to listen to a few of them, but a lot of the time I was in the other room, either shooting the shit or putting together the lunch order for hungry audiophiles (no mean feat, let me tell you).  The only comparisons I really sat in the sweet spot for were the Bolder modded Panny 45 and my AVA gear, which was my main goal for the listening session.

I've done this same comparison a few weeks ago when Wayne and Sean were over at my last place, but I wanted to get together again because the last time I was so shocked and caught off guard that the Panny did so well, that I couldn't be entirely certain afterwards if the modded Panny really beat my AVA gear, or it was merely cognitive dissonance brought on by such a small/cheap piece of even being in the same league as the AVA stuff.

And, throw on top of that that I had a stock Panny 45 for the past few weeks and I have been very underwhelmed by its performance (it lacks refinement and "life" to its sound, more like an X-Ray of the music than a flesh and blood presentation).  So, as time went by my skepticism that the Bolder modded Panny really was as good as I had heard.

So, I sit in the sweet spot after the modded Panny is inserted, and it is absolutely without question better than the stock unit.  More and better everything.  But, compared to how I know my system sounds with the AVA gear, it was still thin and a bit honky in the midrange.  Although very impressive in many respects, it was not long-term livable.  Which I thought was too bad, cause I wanted to like the modded Panny.  

Then Wayne informs us that there were no Speaker level Bybee's inserted.  So, in they go, and it was a revelation.  Honky-ness was gone, everything smoothed out considerable, bass got signifigantly tighter.  You could hear the suprise/shock reactions rippling through the room.  Everyone was amazed.  So was I.  But I wanted to do some more A-B comparisons.  So, back in goes the AVA gear.  More listening commences.  Back in goes the modded Panny for even more listening.

My conclusion is that there is not a single area that the modded Panny didn't equal or better the AVA stuff.  The only place I would give the AVA gear a slight nod would be in midrange warmth, but I know from past experience that this lack of warmth was due to the RM-40's were overdamped for the modded Panny.  Pull off a bit of putty, adjust the pots, and the mid-warmth is very easy to equal out.  I know this for a fact based on past experience.

Now, for the biggest jaw dropping moment of the day was when we put on the Master of Chinese Percussion track off of the Burmeister Sample CD.  BIG drums being hit HARD.  I had the volume of the Panny cranked up to almost max just to see if it would choke or clip or otherwise fall apart driving my 40's.  No it did not.  Not a hint of distortion, or any sign that the Panny was struggling anyway to drive very loud very low bass to my 40's.  My couch was shaking.  The dishes were vibrating.  A couple of times the dynamics actually scared me (and a few other people).  Damn.

Not long after that, Wayne had to take off (taking my stock panny with him, to do the mods on it).  Everyone else except Mike and Pete left with him.  The 3 of us hooked up the Carver to do a bit of listening.  It reminded me a lot of the Panny, but not quite as refined, with still a bit of that midrange shoutiness.  But Pete has not modded the unit as extensively as the Panny had been, so there is room for improvement still.  Overall I thought it sounded good.

And that pretty much wraps it up for me.  It was great to have a room full of other ears to either confirm or deny what I was hearing.  In this case they all confirmed it, and my Panny is on it's way to get the magic mod treatment.

[azryan]

Crap, looks like I've gotta pay for Bybees now! Oh well... still looking to be a deal compared to what alternatives are.

I know that Chinese Drum track very well and used it as a ref. track when I went to Eric's to heard his X's.
IMO the stock 45 Pannie played louder than we played it at his place (which was too loud in his opinion) on my Alphas, and with as much control but I think his bass is still not broken in and/or overdamped.

It was interesting to see on his PS Audio that at those loud levels we were only sending brief spikes of ~100W into each speaker. Though the X is more sensitive than the 40's I'd think it's pretty similar and shows you don't ness. need hundreds of Watts to hammer out high level bass.

At about -25 that track's very loud on my Alphas on -15 it's VEERRYY LOOUUDD.
That's single amps too, not bi-amp Party mode.

You said you cranked up the Panny to about the max? Meaning near -0db right (It's max vol. setting)?

Did you notice the fan between the pauses between many of the drum hits. It's not a big deal to me but I assume you guys must have heard them?

My 25 and 45 both kick on the fan when current is pushing and you guys seemed to be pushing a lot more than I have and on a ~4 Ohm speaker.

Also did you test single amped vs. bi-amp? Mostly I'm interested if you noticed what I 'think' I find... that in bi-amp Party mode I have to turn the volume up about 6db louder to hit the same level as single amped.

If you're going from 100W to 200W but losing 6db of gain then the max output in Party mode is less than single amped? No?

Anyone confirm that I'm missing something in that theory?

Does matter though IMO really when it's clear the the Panny has 'enough' power which is technically all anyone needs no matter what that Wattage rating ends up being.

Eric,

I'm suprised you're looking into this Panny. You didn't seem interested in it before -not wanting to hear mine?

Suprised you mentioned room treatments in Tyson's 'brand new' place. Give him a couple days. hehe

I recall 'someone' mentioning the same thing to you in the room you'd been in for at least a year.

You're a hard guy to figure out.

[Wayne1]

The level we listened to the drum track at was -7 on the SA-XR45.

At no time did the fan come on. The outer case was cool to the touch and when I pulled the cover off, all of the heatsinks were just slightly warm.

We did not try it single amp vs bi-amp on this go round. All listening to the SA-XR45 was in Party mode.

There will be a pair of RM/Xs coming to Denver in the near future. The gentleman who ordered them has expressed an interest in listening to a modded SA-XR45.

[azryan]

Wayne,

Do you have any idea why my fan comes kicks on here and there and apparently never on yours??

I just don't get it. It seems to be triggered by current and I never have it at the levels you do.

My speakers are ~8 Ohm load which I'd think would make them all the less chance of the fan to run.

It's at really low levels where my Pannies (both my 25's and new 45) get pretty warm 'cuz there seems to be so little current that the fan never runs.

When I' play it louder the fan kicks on here and there and keeps it nice and cool no prob.

When I play that drum track, as you know, there's a lot of spots where a single drum hit hammers and then decays to silence. It's here where I can hear the Pannie's fan right after the 'beat'. It stops right away though 'cuz it's not pushing hardly any power during the decay of the sound.

I'd really like to figure this out. Obviously I don't have 3 defective Pannies that all work the same, and obviously my speakers are higher sens. and higher Ohm and I'm running at lower levels that you guys did.

WTF??? I'm totally confused.

[PeteG]

Azryan
I use my XR25 daily, DVD/CD but mostly the tuner. And once out of 6 months I've heard the fan come on, and it wasn't quiet either it stayed on for about 5sec and that was it, and at the time the unit was barely audible.

[TheeeChosenOne]

Interesting thread.

I'm sitting on the fence seeing how this unit plays out with the experienced folk on this forum.

I'm sitting here, though, scratching my head trying to get a handle on this unit in its stock form based on different, somewhat conflicting reviews.

According to this review:
http://google1-cnet.com.com/Panasonic_SA_XR45/4505-6466_7-20794867.html?tag=dir

it says:  

"...don't expect it to rock with the same authority as similarly priced full-size models.......to complete our listening sessions, we compared the XR45 with the full-size Onkyo TX-SR601, using a Philips 963SA DVD player as a source. The bigger box produced more life and detail; the XR45 mellowed out the sound. When we pushed the volume fairly high, we detected some dynamic shrinkage from the XR45, but its audio improved once we backed down to moderate levels. The Panasonic's 100-watt-per-channel rating is a tad optimistic (the Onkyo claims 85 watts), so don't expect this skinny receiver to pump out the oomph of a full-size model."

Of course I very much respect the golden ears of people on this forum...I just wonder why this guy at Cnet was rather underwhelmed.  After all, the stock form should still be pretty damn good in driving speakers of all types--at least from what I've read.  The Cnet reviewer didn't think it had enough "oomph," however.  If this unit is such a dynamic powerhouse, shouldn't this guy have immediately noted the same in this stock Panny?

........Yet it was able to drive the RM40's (which I also own) at "over-the-top" levels at this get-together, correct?

Can anyone please elaborate/make sense of the Panny's ability to dynamically run hard-to-drive speakers of all kinds with the disparity (at least what I read) of the Cnet review?..............