Panasonic listening session #2

Wayne1 · « **Reply #40 on:** 24 Feb 2004, 03:35 pm »

No Marbles, it does not.

The major benefit to the Panasonic design is that it is PURE digital from input to output.

The analog inputs go through A/D conversion. The headphone output goes through D/A conversion. This does reduce the sound quality of the unit slightly.

It is a $300.00 HT receiver in stock form. It was not designed to be the be all and end all of high end hi-fi. With the mods it does sound VERY good but it is not for everyone's system.

For a "simple" HT system it is really, really good. For a two channel system where you can passive bi-amp and use Redbook CDs as you main source, it is simply stellar. If you get more complex than this, I suggest you look else where.

azryan · « **Reply #41 on:** 24 Feb 2004, 06:12 pm »

Bubba,

It's pretty cool in my house. AZ gets VERY hot, but it's not at all warm this time 'o the year.
Got the heat set at about 66 (cheapskate).

PeteG,

"-What I don't understand, If you have to put your hand on the fan to see if it's on why are you concerned, it seems to be doing it's job when hot.-"

It doesn't come on when hot. It seems to work based on current and doesn't seem to have anything to tell temp at all.

In fact it doesn't come on at low levels which actually makes it run kinda warm/almost hot. At high levels the fan kicks on and the unit runs totally cool.

My confusion is that I do think mine is working as it should (3 units actually), BUT it obviously is NOT working at all the same as Wayne's... though his ALSO seems to be working fine.

I figured somehow we could get to the bottom of this. Thought Wayne might know exactly what triggers the fan having the plans for the unit and opening it up to mod it and all.

TIC · « **Reply #42 on:** 26 Feb 2004, 02:32 am »

Hey Guys,

I joined the club and have a '45 on the way. It should arrive tomorrow.

I read through the review "part deux" and must have missed something. There is mention of using the Mensa Dac and the M-Audio Dac. I thought the Panny was supposed to keep the signal in the digital domain all the way through. Were you using the DACs with the Panny or were you using the DACs with the AVA based system?

Lastly, what transport have folks used with the Panny? Are you guys using dedicated CD transports, CD players with digital outputs or DVD players with digital out? Has anyone tried budget transports like a $100-200 DVD player? Anyone using dedicated CD transport?

Enquiring minds want to know!!!

Enjoy,

TIC

Wayne1 · « **Reply #43 on:** 26 Feb 2004, 02:44 am »

The Mensa and SuperDac were first used with the AVA T7 preamp and the Audcom AP-120 preamp driving the AVA power amp. There were no DACs used with the Panasonic.

We used Tyson's nOrh CD-1 as the source for both the DACs and the SA-XR45.

I have used a modded Denon 2900, Sony NS-500 and a Cal Delta as a transport into the Panasonic. In comparison to the nOrh CD-1, the modded Denon sounded much better.

TIC · « **Reply #44 on:** 26 Feb 2004, 03:12 am »

Hey Wayne,

Thanks for the quick reply. I thought that would be the case that there was not an external DAC used with the Panny.

I just sold my (excellent) Resolution Audio Opus 21 CD player. Although it was the best I've ever heard in my system, I was getting concerned about having a $3500 ($2500 used) dedicated CD player as I'm a bit frugal and did not like the thought of its value plumeting as there are now lots of good cheap digital sources in the marketplace.

So, for now, my Panny and my 2-channel system will live with a JVC XV-SA602SL DVD/DVD-A/CD player as source. If it doesn't do the job, I may get something like the NEC CD rom drive or a dedicated transport like the Audio Note CDT-Zero and a DAC for the 2-channel system.

I'm gonna use the stock Panny in my HT system for a while to get to know it. If I like the functionality, etc., I may end up sending it to you for mods. Even with mods that are 2-3X the price of the unit, it still sounds like a good deal!

Thanks and Enjoy,

TIC

randog · « **Reply #45 on:** 26 Feb 2004, 05:27 am »

Quote from: TIC

Hey Guys,

I joined the club and have a '45 on the way. It should arrive tomorrow.

...

Hey TIC, where did you find the 45? I've been looking for weeks now.

Randog

TIC · « **Reply #46 on:** 26 Feb 2004, 12:31 pm »

Randog,

I got lucky and saw a used one pop up on AudiogoN. I jumped on it within 2-3 minutes of it being posted.

TIC

randog · « **Reply #47 on:** 27 Feb 2004, 01:08 am »

Quote from: Wayne1

The Mensa and SuperDac were first used with the AVA T7 preamp and the Audcom AP-120 preamp driving the AVA power amp. There were no DACs used with the Panasonic.

We used Tyson's nOrh CD-1 as the source for both the DACs and the SA-XR45.

I have used a modded Denon 2900, Sony NS-500 and a Cal Delta as a transport into the Panasonic. In comparison to the nOrh CD-1, the modded Denon sounded much better.

I have a question... if you use the digital out on the Norh CD-1, are you now bypassing the tubes?

Randog

PS: I, too, can be quick as a tic! Thanks to Scott, I am now the proud owner of an XR-45.

randog · « **Reply #48 on:** 27 Feb 2004, 01:11 am »

Quote from: Tyson

Then Wayne informs us that there were no Speaker level Bybee's inserted. So, in they go, and it was a revelation. Honky-ness was gone, everything smoothed out considerable, bass got signifigantly tighter. You could hear the suprise/shock reactions rippling through the room. Everyone was amazed. So was I. But I wanted to do some more A-B comparisons. So, back in goes the AVA gear. More listening commences. Back in goes the modded Panny for even more listening....

Another question...

Did you guys try the bybees with the stock unit?

Wayne1 · « **Reply #49 on:** 27 Feb 2004, 03:42 am »

Randy,

There are no tubes in the digital circuit of the CD-1.

Tyson always has the Bybees in circuit with his RM-40s. The only time they were not hooked up was when I first installed the modded SA-XR45.

Tyson · « **Reply #50 on:** 27 Feb 2004, 04:46 pm »

The stock unit with bybees on the speakers and the digital input was. . . underwhelming. The modded unit with bybee on the digital input but not the speakers was much better than the stock unit w/all bybees, but it was still not up to the level of my main system (ava T7 and 550ex w/Mensa DIO). The modded panny with bybees on the digital input AND the speakers was the real magic. Only then did I feel it was worth considering replacing all of my main gear.

randog · « **Reply #51 on:** 27 Feb 2004, 05:01 pm »

Two clear, concise, and to the point answers. Thank you, I appreciate that.

Wayne, I'm going to burn my unit in a bit then contact you about your HT mods.

Randog

sunshinedawg · « **Reply #52 on:** 27 Feb 2004, 07:40 pm »

Quote from: randog

Two clear, concise, and to the point answers. Thank you, I appreciate that.

Wayne, I'm going to burn my unit in a bit then contact you about your HT mods.

Randog

You might take into consideration that you will have to burn it in again once the mods are complete.

maxwalrath · « **Reply #53 on:** 27 Feb 2004, 08:21 pm »

Quote from: Tyson

The stock unit with bybees on the speakers and the digital input was. . . underwhelming. The modded unit with bybee on the digital input but not the speakers was much better than the stock unit w/all bybees, but it was still not up to the level of my main system (ava T7 and 550ex w/Mensa DIO). The modded panny with bybees on the digital input AND the speakers was the real magic. Only then did I feel it was worth considering replacing all of my main gear.

Any opinion on how your past gear with all those bybees would compare?

Another question...I was trying to explain this digital revolution to a friend of mine, and he seemed to think there has to be a d/a conversion at some point before the signal goes to the speakers. I didn't think there was a d/a conversion anywhere (I thought that skipping the d/a step was where 90% of the benefit of digital came from), but I couldn't explain the state of the signal when it reached the speakers. Can anyone chime in with a quick explanation?

Thanks,
Max

Tyson · « **Reply #54 on:** 27 Feb 2004, 09:45 pm »

Well, its not "past gear" yet, the AVA and Mensa stuff is still my current gear. And the Bybees are all mine and have been in use with the AVA and Mensa stuff for about a year, maybe a little less.

zybar · « **Reply #55 on:** 27 Feb 2004, 09:47 pm »

So are you selling and going with the Panny?

Sorry to put you on the spot, but I am sure ithers are curious as well.

GW

zybar · « **Reply #56 on:** 27 Feb 2004, 09:53 pm »

Max,

Of course there is a D/A conversion before the speakers - there must be unless your speakers can turn digital into music.

Here is what Wayne sent to me when I asked a similar question (Wayne hope you don't mind me printing this):

Quote

One of the reasons I fell it sounds so good is the elimination of connectors and different mechanical interfaces. You have the connection to a digital input. circutry there, wire to bring it to the D/A section, more wire to bring it to the audio section, connectors to bring it to the preamp, more wire and connectors to bring it to the switch, mechnanical switches to wire to mecnamachical balance to wir to mechanical volume to wire to circuit board to cap and resistors to wire to mechanical etc.

With the Panny the signal doe not change state. It is kept digital the entire way. My mods ensure the signal path is kept short and eliminates most of the mechanical connections. That is where the future of Audio Electronics lies the KISS principle.

Hope this helps.

GW

maxwalrath · « **Reply #57 on:** 27 Feb 2004, 10:21 pm »

Quote from: zybar

Max,

Of course there is a D/A conversion before the speakers - there must be unless your speakers can turn digital into music.

I figured as much George, but everywhere I read people were posting about the advantage of skipping the D/A section. I just didn't know how to explain this to my friend, thanks for the reply it helps.
Max

Wayne1 · « **Reply #58 on:** 27 Feb 2004, 11:01 pm »

There is no D/A convertor. The Equibit chip changes the PCM signal from the CD player into a PWM signal. The signal is kept "digital" all the way through the amplifier. Right before the speaker connectors are second order passive low pass filters that remove the switching frequency from the signal.

Here is a link to a .pdf file from TI that explains how the Equibit chipset works:
http://focus.ti.com/lit/an/slaa117a/slaa117a.pdf

zybar · « **Reply #59 on:** 27 Feb 2004, 11:08 pm »

OOps.

Thanks for clarifying Wayne.

GW