[DanTheMan]

I got mine from zzounds for $152/pair after finding a cheaper price on the web and having them beat their advertised price.

I told PE they had their PDF wrong.  I thought they changed it after I asked.

Dan

[sts9fan]

This whole thing has got me thinking about upgrading the xover on my speakers (GedLee).  I have been wanting to change my binding post to cardas patented (not for sound) but will have to replace the whole rear plate which has the crossover.  Maybe I could build a new external xover and add a switch between the old and new.  The old by the way many would consider a nasty thing with an iron croe inductor and a few sand resistors.  I think my main reason to want to do this is to get tightly matched caps and such. 

[dvenardos]

Dan,
I guess I don't really see your point (I didn't read your other thread). It seems like you are taking testing to hyper critical extremes. Insisting that the same speaker be used with switches for the crossover or you won't participate? If the differences are as big as Danny says then it is more than any variation in drivers. If it doesn't make a big difference in the sound then you can say the upgraded components are just a waste of money. There are lots of things that we don't understand about human hearing and how the brain processes information, so insisting that any differences in the sound of a speaker be proven comes off as a bit extreme.

What exactly are you saying?

Don

Dvenardos, I don't think anyone doubt that Danny makes great speakers.  Well, some people might, but that's not what the threads really dealing.  There are no implications of otherwise as some seem to think I am implying.

The blind testing has already been done.  The specs are known as to what people like.  Danny actually uses those metrics to design his speakers and even goes further into the unknown--or rather unconfirmed or not researched and published.

I've gotten some pretty nasty PMs about these things that are just so far off base it's craziness. 

The biggest difference I see in my thinking vs. Danny's is that even though he designs to the research he doesn't to acknowledge it as valid.  Actually states strongly that it is wrong. 

Dan

[DanTheMan]

I'm saying that a listening test that isn't controlled won't tell us anything.  If the tested device isn't the only variable, then there would be still reason to suspect another cause if a change is noticed for better or worse.  Since driver variability is quite large in comparison, changing the drivers would automatically destroy any hopes of getting anything useful from the experiment.  So if Danny's mods one pair of speakers, and I bring another unmodded, we listen, my unmodded speakers win the test, do you think that the upgraded crossover is then why?  So then what, we do another test?  These things take a long time to set up.  It's much easier to just get it right the first time and leave no doubts.  Or perhaps less doubts.  No test is perfect.

Dan

[ebag4]

I'm sorry Dan, I am having difficulty in following this logic.  On one hand it is being stated that the quality of components in the crossover will make no difference in the sound quality (hence the test to verify it one way or the other).  On the other hand it is being said that the difference between components and drivers on the manufacturing line that is designed to make each of the speakers that come off that line as close to the same as possible will invalidate the test if two different speakers of the same model are used because of differences between the speakers???? Which is it, it seems to me that these two things are saying are in direct conflict with each other, what am I missing?

Best,
Ed

[sts9fan]

Its very basic scientific method.

Rule 1: Only change one thing at a time.

If you use two sets of speakers you have the variation associated with the cheap manufacturing. 
On that note I am sure these speakers can be made better by precise parts matching.   

[DanTheMan]

Yes, the variance between the speakers are larger than the capacitors and in multiple ways.  I have dozens of graphs that show it and it's well known by anyone who measures speakers or capacitors.  Therefor, you should just read the thread and you'll understand. 

Nice try Ed,

Dan

[ebag4]

Its very basic scientific method.

Rule 1: Only change one thing at a time.

If you use two sets of speakers you have the variation associated with the cheap manufacturing. 
On that note I am sure these speakers can be made better by precise parts matching.   

Yes Kris, I get the scientific method.  That is not the question, the question is how can one believe both points, that differences on a manufacturing line can make a difference but replacing crossover components with equal values but different types/brands/quality will make no difference.

Best,
Ed

[ebag4]

Yes, the variance between the speakers are larger than the capacitors and in multiple ways.  I have dozens of graphs that show it and it's well known by anyone who measures speakers or capacitors.  Therefor, you should just read the thread and you'll understand. 

Nice try Ed,

Dan

I don't know, did you publish a paper? j/k

Best,
Ed

[dwk]

Yes Kris, I get the scientific method.  That is not the question, the question is how can one believe both points, that differences on a manufacturing line can make a difference but replacing crossover components with equal values but different types/brands/quality will make no difference.

Best,
Ed

Well, your specific question can be answered by pointing out that in one case you're talking about component *tolerances* while in the other you're talking about component *quality*.  I don't see a particular contradiction if someone says that component values have an influence on sound but component quality doesn't *once you control for value variation*.  I"m not saying that I agree with that, but it doesn't strike me as a contradiction.

[DanTheMan]

OK, the evidence--the first positive to be produced--is out.  Capacitors CAN make an audible difference--of course musicians already knew this.  At this point it's more of a question as to what degree(read the thread for more detail).  That's why I said you should read the thread. It was clear you hadn't.  I linked a commentary on the AES paper a few pages back.

These threads often get like this--a bunch of repeating d/t people not reading.  Many people get emotional and just post on gut RXNs and it tends to make things confusing and circular.  Linear discussion is then obscured by repeating discussion that already took place.  That's why I didn't just want to give away the answers again.  Give a man a fish--teach a man to fish. 

Please Ed know that I mean no offense to you(which I'm sure YOU do, but others are highly inclined to think I'm some sort of asshole--some think that b/c I sign my name to each post ).  Uh oh Ed, looks like you might be one too.

You can't please them all.

Dan 

[sts9fan]

the question is how can one believe both points, that differences on a manufacturing line can make a difference but replacing crossover components with equal values but different types/brands/quality will make no difference.

Values and types are different things are they not?  VALUES will for sure make a difference.  Type on the other hand is where this debate lies.  I personally don't know.  I find most of these experiments boring.  I do plan on fixing up the crossover on my main rig.  I say I will AB but I know I will not.   

[ebag4]

Values and types are different things are they not?  VALUES will for sure make a difference.  Type on the other hand is where this debate lies.  I personally don't know.  I find most of these experiments boring.  I do plan on fixing up the crossover on my main rig.  I say I will AB but I know I will not.

Agreed, values and types are different things.  With that said I find it hard to believe the values coming off an assembly line will be off more than a few microfarads (for caps) in general, likely not worth mentioning otherwise we would all be testing our speakers out of the box to verify the pair we purchased are match close enough to be a stereo pair.

Best,
Ed

[DanTheMan]

You should probably test your speakers Ed, or just look at the stereomojo tests.   The matched pairs of the Behringers look pretty good, but the one pair sound and measure different than the other pair.

Dan

[Rclark]

It's very clear that Dan is simply trying to have the absolute last last last word here and nothing more. He's not going to agree to post photos of his room and gear, he's not going to agree to a test. Its clear he came into this actually believing he knew more  than Danny and that he was going to teach everyone something. His "research" that Danny, again, World Class Designer, was supposed to read and suddenly become enlightened by, was some links to some white papers on Harmon Kardon's website  . If you read each post as I have, you see that he truly believes he's on to something and knows more than everyone here because he's read all the "research".  

What's apparent is Dan "The Man" is learning on the fly, is suddenly now bending his views against new information about caps, yet is trying to exit the thread some sort of "victor" so he can go back to the lab in glory. But it's impossible. This thread is now going in circles and everyone's time has been wasted except for the sheer entertainment value. He's going to hold out until some EE genius comes up with a way to measure sonic improvements with a Radio Shack device. He simply doesn't get it  Anyway, there's the corner, keep painting.

[sts9fan]

Yeah that guy at Harmon is a hack.

[arthurs]

I really wish you could say something to my face.  Where do you live?

What's the intent here?

[jsaliga]

What's the intent here?

I was wondering the same thing, since it's the second time I've seen him ask someone that.  It's completely inappropriate no matter the intent, IMO.

--Jerome

[DanTheMan]

Nothing I see as inappropriate.

Dan

[Danny Richie]

OK, the evidence--the first positive to be produced--is out.  Capacitors CAN make an audible difference--of course musicians already knew this.

Ah, first they make no difference. They went from "fancy and boutique" to something musicians already knew...

These threads often get like this--a bunch of repeating d/t people not reading.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I already posted a link about tolerances and how small the differences are in amplitude from capacitor variation. Yet people still keep coming back to tolerances.

Let me repeat. Tolerance variances between components or drivers do NOT account for changes in resolution, detail, noise floor, space between notes, changes in dynamics, imaging, sound stage size, etc. They acount for changes in level (amplitude changes) in a given area only.

Woooo, I just caught this new one.

Small mind RClark.  Sad.  Aren't you a teacher?  I really wish you could say something to my face.  Where do you live.

Okay Dan. Here the deal. Rclark has called it like he sees it. Many may agree with how he interpreted what he has seen here.

Now here is the really bad part. You can't respond in such a way that it is seen as a physical threat.

So I once again ask, is there something that any of you have posted that you would like to edit for yourself before things get too out of hand and requires further action?