[KnowTalent]

Has anyone, anywhere, ever done a blind test between speaker wire and been able to tell the difference?

For example $2000 speaker wires vs $10 Monoprice 12 AWG.

I would love to be convinced that speaker wire makes a difference (I'm currently considering upgrading my Monoprice wire to something nicer (~$100), though at this point it's purely for aesthetic reasons). Seems like it wouldn't be that hard to do the test. If a speaker wire has certain sonic characteristics shouldn't it be easily identifiable by just listening?

The best way to combat this is to have a manufacturer/reseller pony up a pair of Nordost Odin and blindly compare them to a set of bare ended 10ga Belden from BlueJeansCables....and let the hillarity ensue 

[coke]

Without listing percentages, I feel that speakers have the biggest impact on how a sytem sounds.  I have noticed dramatic improvements when changing amps, preamps, and DACs, but overall, the biggest improvements usually come from speakers (in my experience).

I'm an Electrical Engineer (if that matters) and understand both sides of the argument in this thread, but personal experience has shown speakers to be the most important component.

I wouldn't put a $10,000 amp on $1,000 speakers, and I most likely wouldn't power $10,000 speakers with a $1,000 amp. Ignoring sound treatment, I like to have somewhat of a balanced system, dedicating half of my budget to speakers and the other half to source, DAC, preamp, and amp. 

[floresjc]

Wow.

Werd you kind of went from no point with almost zero evidence to completely off your rocker. Do you even have speakers and the associated electronics? Or just a modified squeezebox? Maybe a pile of linear power supplies and a tin cup?

If you hadn't noticed, most people posting on this board are already Salk owners or owners of other high end systems, Jim's not exactly making a killing by talking with us all about a hobby we've already geared up for. And had you actually talked to the man, you know he could care less about selling you something than helping you along in your hobby. Its not uncommon for a person who selects Salk to come on here and say "I was ready to splurge for 6K HT3's but Jim sold me on some 3K HT1-TLs."

Whereas other people have at least made an effort to have an argument and back it up, you have completely held the highest standards of Nuance's charge.

[floresjc]

Without listing percentages, I feel that speakers have the biggest impact on how a sytem sounds.  I have noticed dramatic improvements when changing amps, preamps, and DACs, but overall, the biggest improvements usually come from speakers (in my experience).

I'm an Electrical Engineer (if that matters) and understand both sides of the argument in this thread, but personal experience has shown speakers to be the most important component.

I wouldn't put a $10,000 amp on $1,000 speakers, and I most likely wouldn't power $10,000 speakers with a $1,000 amp. Ignoring sound treatment, I like to have somewhat of a balanced system, dedicating half of my budget to speakers and the other half to source, DAC, preamp, and amp.

Well said Coke. Perhaps you should duck for claims of you starting a lair of misinformation.

[cacophony777]

Its not uncommon for a person who selects Salk to come on here and say "I was ready to splurge for 6K HT3's but Jim sold me on some 3K HT1-TLs."

Jim also helps facilitate the sale of his speakers on the used market! (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=67175.0) This is the opposite of what a company wants to do if the goal is to maximize profit, and shows that Jim just wants his speakers to find good homes and happy owners.

[Big Red Machine]

You do have an agenda, and thats to sell your speakers to anybody that stumbles into the lair of your misinformation on the whole hobby. I guess the whole scheme is to get people to spend all their money on your speaks. Hey all the power to you. But in all fairness your scheme sits right in the face many people who take this hobby seriousily. So if you don't mind, sources, cables and anything other than speakers do play a big role, a much bigger role than you will let your potential buyers in on...

Well before I thought you were baiting everyone just for your own enjoyment, but now I am questioning your intent and manners - wow.

[floresjc]

cacophony -

I've been watching the AC forums for several years now, Salk/AVA in particular with some of the other more generalized ones, and I've come across nothing but praise for him. I'm actually kind of surprised there's not a "Why did you choose Salk" thread going like some customers on the AVA board got going. But we wouldn't want to make Jim blush

He and Frank are certainly cut from the same customer satisfaction cloth. At least in my case, he invested probably more phone time than normal as I tried to conduct all my business from Afghanistan (at weird hours of the night for me at least). And he put up with at least one cancellation, helped me figure out some used HT3's, which were destroyed by UPS (and he spent a fair amount of time dealing with from a repair angle), and eventually gave me the same deal on the new speaks I had cancelled 6 weeks before when they were determined unsalvageable. Can't ask for more than that, the guy went to the moon and back for me (at no cost) on a product he didn't sell me.

[Nuance]

Everybody just ignore Nuance....... not only is he a troll but he's a dumb one.......

Wow, not only do you add nothing to this topic, but now you're throwing out personal insults/attacks.  Way to go...

[eclein]

I can only speak for my experience, and Jim is pretty much the cream of the crop. He has spent his time responding to my questions with a great deal of respect and never once, ever, ever, made me feel like a moron or total newbie to this hobby when in fact I am new and asked some pretty dumb questions now that I look back on it.

In this forum here over the past year or so I've learned a ton from a lot of people on here..Jim is absolutely one of the best sources for information that he gives freely to anyone who may ask. I have never once in all that time heard anyone say anything negative about the man or his product...Nobodies paying me to write this!! Jim has no agenda, nada, none period..he only wants to give out information as it was once given to him. I don't own Salk speakers-yet!! If my budget allowed I wouldn't hesitate a second to place an order with Jim.
 I kinda think we need more folks like Jim Salk and I think others do also!!!

[Russell Dawkins]

Also, if you take the time to ponder the logic in Jim's posts, his points make very good sense, I think.

[floresjc]

Oh yah, and for a speaker guy, Jim knows a hell of a lot about subs. Taught me everything I know about them, in probably about 90 minutes on the phone. Of course, I don't really have to design and build them, I just had to pick which design concept to go with for my needs. I'm sure glad I talked to him because I was going to just get a stock SVS PC Ultra (which I've heard and is excellent btw) and call it a life. I like my custom sub so much better, its custom!

[Nuance]

Well said folks.  I cannot say enough about Jim, his crew and his products.  He is a class act and I have the utmost respect for him.  The man sells speakers, but he does not have an agenda.  He'll frequently  recommend other products that better fit a customers need.  He'll even talk you into spending less depending on your unique situation. 

Lets keep this conversation respectful; as respectful as Jim treats every one of us. 

[cacophony777]

Has anyone, anywhere, ever done a blind test between speaker wire and been able to tell the difference?

For example $2000 speaker wires vs $10 Monoprice 12 AWG.

I would love to be convinced that speaker wire makes a difference (I'm currently considering upgrading my Monoprice wire to something nicer (~$100), though at this point it's purely for aesthetic reasons). Seems like it wouldn't be that hard to do the test. If a speaker wire has certain sonic characteristics shouldn't it be easily identifiable by just listening?

Back on topic 

Let me extend this question to all audio components...

Are there any blind tests that show a clear ability to distinguish two DACs?
... amps?
... speakers?!?
... etc

You always hear about blind tests showing that audio component X isn't distinguishable from component Y (eg. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=70893.0 or http://www.matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm), but what rigorous tests show a clear difference?

Just to be clear, I'm not doubting that differences exist in these other areas (I performed my own blind test with two DACs and was able to spot the difference), but I'm curious what scientific studies have been done.

[R Swerdlow]

Let me extend this question to all audio components...

Are there any blind tests that show a clear ability to distinguish two DACs?
... amps?
... speakers?!?
... etc

You always hear about blind tests showing that audio component X isn't distinguishable from component Y (eg. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=70893.0 or http://www.matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm), but what rigorous tests show a clear difference?

Just to be clear, I'm not doubting that differences exist in these other areas (I performed my own blind test with two DACs and was able to spot the difference), but I'm curious what scientific studies have been done.

As far as I know, as much as they are mentioned in threads like these, other than the long series of blind speaker listening tests done by Floyd Toole and Sean Olive, very few blind listening tests have been done.  They are difficult to do (especially in a scientifically valid manner), rapid switching between test items poses technical barriers, and other than speakers where differences may be easily heard, it is often boring or frustrating to try to hear differences in items.  Kind of like listening to paint dry.

Since you mentioned the words “rigorous tests”, it brings up a favorite subject of mine.  Just how do you design a blind listening test that can be readily accepted by both believers and non-believers?  I have seen results of listening tests discussed on audio forums, and they always bring out attacks from doubters.  You have to arm yourself with lots of data to fight off those attacks.

If you want to establish how many listeners can reliably detect a difference in sound between two items being tested, A and B, you should stick to hearing differences, because preferences about which may sound better is a completely different question.  If you can’t hear a difference, preferences won’t matter.

But that alone doesn’t answer the question of how many people actually respond YES they hear a difference when A and B are genuinely different.  You might think it is 100%, but it almost never is.  The same goes for how many people respond NO they do not hear a difference when A and B are identical.  Again, you’d think that should be 100%, but again it almost never is.  Without those two control tests (a positive and negative control), any test of two items whose audible difference is unknown and being tested won’t mean very much.

So any blind listening test of DACs, speakers, amps, or anything, should include these positive and negative controls along with the real test, all done with the same people and the same conditions.

So, let's get busy !

[Mudslide]

Back on topic 

Let me extend this question to all audio components...

Are there any blind tests that show a clear ability to distinguish two DACs?
... amps?
... speakers?!?
... etc

You always hear about blind tests showing that audio component X isn't distinguishable from component Y (eg. http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=70893.0 or http://www.matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm), but what rigorous tests show a clear difference?

Just to be clear, I'm not doubting that differences exist in these other areas (I performed my own blind test with two DACs and was able to spot the difference), but I'm curious what scientific studies have been done.

Here's a quick look at some of the literature, mostly regarding amps, that might be interesting reading.  It's a start.  What would you like next?   

By the way, a fellow named Richard Clark put up ten grand (I think that was the amount) to anyone who could consistently blind-test differentiate between various adequately designed amplifiers...given performance within the amps' linear capabilities.  So far he still has his money.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Topological Analysis of Consumer Audio Electronics: Another Approach to Show that MOdern Audio Electronics are Acoustically Transparent", Rich, David and Aczel, Peter, 99 AES Convention, 1995, Print #4053.

"The Great Debate: Is Anyone Winning?", Nousaine, Tom, Proceedings of the AES, 8th International Conference, 1990.

"Audiolab Test: Six Power Amplifiers", Masters, Ian G., Audio Scene Canada, May 1977, pg 44-50.

"Audiolab Test: Amplifiers and Speaker Cables", Masters, Ian G., Audio Scene Canada, Jun 1981, pg 24-27.

"Do All Amplifiers Sound the Same?", Masters, Ian G., Stereo Review, Jan 1987, pg 78-84.

"Audible Amplifier Distortion is not a Mystery", Baxandall, Peter J., Wireless World, Nov 1977, pg 63-66.

"Amplifier Tests on Test-2, The Panel Game", Colloms, Martin, Hi-Fi News & Record Review, Nov 1978, pg 114-117.

"Amplifier Tests on Test-1, Without Prejudice", Hope, Adrian, Hi-Fi News& Record Reviewe, Nov 1978, pg 110-113.

"Positive Feedback: Rational Amplifier Testing", Walker, P. J., Hi-Fi News & Record Review, Jul 1977, pg 135.

"Some Amplifiers Do Sound Different", Carlstrom, D., Kruger, A., & Greenhill, L., The Audio Amateur, 3/1982, pg 30, 31.

"Equipment Profile", Greenhill, L. & Clark, D., Audio, Apr 1985, pg 56-60, 82-97.

"Power Amplifiers and the Loudspeaker Load",Johnson, J. H., Audio, Aug 1977.

"Amplifier Design & Sound Quality", Holman, Tomlinson, Audio, Nov 1996, pg 26-31.

"The Amp/Speakers Interface, are your Loudspeakers turning your amp into a Tone Control?", Meyers, E. Brad, Stereo Review, Jun 1991, pg 53-56.

"Audio Power Amplifiers for Loudspeaker Loads", Benjamin, Eric, Journal of the Audio Engineering Society, vol 42, No. 9, Sep 1994, pg 670-683.

"A New Look at Medium and High-Priced Power Amplifiers", Rich, David, The Audio Critic, #20, Summer 93, pg 14.

"Reasonably Priced Pre amplifiers for the Reasonable AudiophilesRich, David, ", The Audio Critic, #18, Spring/Summer 1992.

Amp Tests, Boston Audio Society Speaker, Vol 21, No.2, pg 18-20, Sep 1997.

[cacophony777]

Since you mentioned the words “rigorous tests”, it brings up a favorite subject of mine.  Just how do you design a blind listening test that can be readily accepted by both believers and non-believers?  I have seen results of listening tests discussed on audio forums, and they always bring out attacks from doubters.  You have to arm yourself with lots of data to fight off those attacks.

Good questions. Personally, I'm not so concerned with having a test be universally accepted. I just like having the information to digest, and people can interpret it however they like. Even a test with obvious issues can reveal some interesting things if it's interpreted with some common sense, IMO.

But that alone doesn’t answer the question of how many people actually respond YES they hear a difference when A and B are genuinely different.  You might think it is 100%, but it almost never is.  The same goes for how many people respond NO they do not hear a difference when A and B are identical.  Again, you’d think that should be 100%, but again it almost never is.  Without those two control tests (a positive and negative control), any test of two items whose audible difference is unknown and being tested won’t mean very much.

It would be fun to meet the person who can't distinguish the SoundScape 12 from these:
http://www.amazon.com/Bose-Companion-multimedia-speaker-system/dp/B000HZDF8W

 

[cacophony777]

Whoa, that's quite a collection Mudslide, thanks. I wonder how many of these are at my local library.

[R Swerdlow]

Good questions. Personally, I'm not so concerned with having a test be universally accepted. I just like having the information to digest, and people can interpret it however they like. Even a test with obvious issues can reveal some interesting things if it's interpreted with some common sense, IMO.

I've heard people say that before they try a blind test - that they should be able to sort out things by interpreting with common sense.

Afterwards (after the flaming ) they wish they had beefed up their ability to make conclusions by doing the various controls .

[Nuance]

There is just so much to respond to: I don't know where to begin.  I think Jim and floresjc gave the best explanations, and they echo exactly how I feel, so I will just say a big +1 to the cognitive dissonance explanation.  But no matter what you or I believe, the only person that has to be happy is you.  If you feel product A makes a huge difference, or product B is a scam - great!  We might disagree, but your system has to make you happy; not me.  The problem I have (and its a well known pet peeve of mine) is when someone comes onto these forums and pushes their opinions as fact, claiming this and that is the only way to go, and calling people dumb if they don't agree (like werd did to me).  This is when I'll debate the topic, asking for proof.  If you are going to talk the talk, you' better be able to back it, especially when what you (we) say can influence the decision making process of a potential buyer. 

With that said, there is no reason we cannot debate peacefully.  Sure, they are certain individuals that are trolls and won't stop pushing their wild agendas, but I think we can see through their charade and choose to ignore them.  If you want to lump me into that category, I am okay with that; its your decision.   Just remember: you don't win a debate by claiming what you hear/see/think is fact, and writing off everything else.  You win by providing the facts and the truth, with some actual data to back it up.


Now, let's have fun, and in a peaceful manner (I am as much to blame as anyone else, I can admit it).

[werd]

There is just so much to respond to: I don't know where to begin.  I think Jim and floresjc gave the best explanations, and they echo exactly how I feel, so I will just say a big +1 to the cognitive dissonance explanation.  But no matter what you or I believe, the only person that has to be happy is you.  If you feel product A makes a huge difference, or product B is a scam - great!  We might disagree, but your system has to make you happy; not me.  The problem I have (and its a well known pet peeve of mine) is when someone comes onto these forums and pushes their opinions as fact, claiming this and that is the only way to go, and calling people dumb if they don't agree (like werd did to me).  This is when I'll debate the topic, asking for proof.  If you are going to talk the talk, you' better be able to back it, especially when what you (we) say can influence the decision making process of a potential buyer. 

With that said, there is no reason we cannot debate peacefully.  Sure, they are certain individuals that are trolls and won't stop pushing their wild agendas, but I think we can see through their charade and choose to ignore them.  If you want to lump me into that category, I am okay with that; its your decision.   Just remember: you don't win a debate by claiming what you hear/see/think is fact, and writing off everything else.  You win by providing the facts and the truth, with some actual data to back it up.


Now, let's have fun, and in a peaceful manner (I am as much to blame as anyone else, I can admit it).

Slinging links  from you endless bag of dbt and bt tests doesnt qualify as proof.
I guess thats my pet peave, is your inability to manufacture your own opinion without someone holding
your hand. Good lord what would happen if you went blind, How would you know what gear to buy?