wall mounts?

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neobop

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Re: wall mounts?
« Reply #20 on: 23 Feb 2014, 12:39 am »
Back in the day the pseudoscience gurus told us that cones with points down would mass couple a component.  No problem there, easily understood.

They also told us that inverted cones, like under a mounting board, would decouple.  Does anyone know the science here? 

Seems to me inverted cones might be another form of coupling and some kind of dampers would be decoupling.

neo

jschwenker

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Re: wall mounts?
« Reply #21 on: 23 Feb 2014, 08:06 pm »
Hi Folks,

I have a turntable wall mount - with mods added (of course) - that solves some of the traditional problems in a slightly unique fashion.  It won't be needed for everybody and may not appeal to everybody but it goes a ways toward solving problems that are quite common in a lot of home audio environments.  I do not have any usable drawings or plans - but many DIYers may be able to use the concepts and design around their particular needs/desires - to come up with something as good or better.  First some talk about the issues at hand from the former mechanical engineering kool-aid drinker.  There are two main areas of concern:

1)  Footfalls:  Typically a problem on anything less than a concrete floor.  It is annoying in the extreme to have skips or flub-flubs arise from someone else walking into the room, or you getting up to grab the remote or the album jacket.  And then, if you are playing at sufficient* volume - it's going to happen - you may be inspired once in a while to get up and move a little!  (*sufficient is the word I'll use for what some folks would call too durn loud ;-) )
2)  Audio feedback.  Anything less than a concrete floor mounting and you probably have this at some level.  Joist floors are acoustically stiffer than walls but not a whole lot.  Neo describes them, accurately, as springy.  Particularly if you employ subs you may hear the effects, and at 'sufficient' levels you could trigger genuine self-sustaining feedback at very low frequencies.  Below self amplifying, the relative level at any one frequency of this feedback does not change.  Playing things more quietly may succeed in that it drives any waveform mis-shaping that may be happening down to a level that's harder to detect by ear. 

The overall goal, is to limit the energy (amplitude at frequency) received at the turntable plinth.  Many turntables have sub plinth internal suspensions that are pretty good - for the audio feedback area of maybe 40 Hz and up - making the problem anywhere from less to quite un-noticeable for many systems.  For footfalls and lower LF problems there are two major approaches: 

A) Mass:  A large amount of mass in the stand, together with the floor spring rate can drive the natural frequency down quite a bit.  And, a large mass limits the amplitude of the response, by requiring more energy to drive it.  (this of course is why concrete floors are so ideal - large mass and very low springiness)
B) Decoupling:  Again the very best decoupling is simple solid mounting back to earth - and almost the only solution for footfalls.  Next best, for audio feedback, is to drive the natural frequency of the suspension system to well below that of the audio reproduction.  The technical explanation is that any system is most efficient at responding to energy delivered near its natural frequency.  If the natural frequency is driven significantly low then it really can't respond well to anything very much above that.  (Crude example:  Friend sitting on a swing.  You step up and try to "shock" them by yanking quickly on the chains halfway up.  Doesn't work too well.  They just sort of start to swing a bit at the natural frequency of the swing and most of your energy did not do very much.)  Commercial isolation stages usually are based on mechanical linkages that do just this sort of decoupling and then sometimes add some passive or active damping.  (I have worked with Minus K-Vibraplane units in my (non-audio) professional life - and they do measure up as pretty magnificent  - but I have thus far considered them too spendy for home use)

So my story starts very similar to many folks.  I have a normal joist floor and normal 2x4 walls.  I put up with the footfall thing for many years - then added a wall mount.  (simple Target TT-1)  Footfall relief was immediate and dramatic.  Most walls are very stiff in the vertical direction.  (mine maybe a little more so given that it sits on foundation about 3 feet down from the turntable)  Even walls in upper floor rooms will usually be significantly stiffer in the vertical direction than the joist floor. 

Next, I added some well integrated subs and started noticing serious audio feedback - even to the point of self-sustained feedback at maybe 15-20 Hz or so, at 'sufficient' volume levels.  Experimentation rather quickly showed that the wall and shelf was responding in an in-out fashion to the LF audio.  At those frequencies, with maybe 50 foot waveforms, you are really more simply than ever raising and lowering room air pressure - and standard 2x4 walls are even more springy than floors in that direction.  I needed very specifically to decouple from wall horizontal motion - so that the wall is free to wobble and the turntable stays still - at frequencies significantly upwards of the isolation natural frequency.  The following assembly is what I came up with to do that.  (essentially a much more domestically friendly and appealing variation on the old suspend the turntable from the ceiling approach)




Fig. 1 - Turntable isolation stage - The Overview.  (exploded views in upcoming figs)  In addition to the basic low natural frequency mechanical goal, desires were to come up with an assembly that was:  A) Reasonably compact  B) Appeared to be resting on the cabinet below  C) Still allowed clear access to the turntable above the dustcover bottom edge. 
Fixed parts bolt onto the bottom of the TT-1 shelf and extend 4 towers up vertically.  The pendulum chains are approx 9 inches long, giving a natural swing frequency of about 1 Hz.  The chains suspend the lower swing platform.  The upper swing platform is directly coupled to the lower by large tubes reaching up through the shelf bracket internal open spaces.  The upper platform carries the turntable and is free to float approx +/- 0.4 inch in any horiz direction.





Fig. 2 - TT-1 shelf frame and first mods - underside view - The TT-1 model has only the one slightly diagonal strut in the center to stiffen the horizontal shelf frame.  The mass of all items I was planning to add would push close to the approx 55 lb design load limit.  I constructed 2 additional strut assemblies that could be installed to help carry/stiffen the load.  These strut assembly's positions can be seen more clearly in fig 4)





Fig. 3 - Fixed parts and towers - Lower assemblies needed to be constructed to work around the stiffener struts.  Screwed and glued interfaces in oak.  Top hooks for the pendulum chains are just unbent eye screws.  At this point found that a coat or two each of india ink and polyurethane made for a finish approximating the old HW-19.





Fig. 4 - Stiffening struts and rear tower assembly in place - Lower parts of tower assemblies bolt up to the inserts originally used for TT-1 shelf mounting/leveling.





Fig. 5 - Lower swing platform - bottom view.  Inset shows the crude but effective attachment of the pendulum chain lower anchor u-bolts.  U-bolts were bent slightly in the upward direction to make a more localized spot for chain ends to settle. 





Fig. 6 - Lower swing platform in place.  Each pendulum chain assy has a small turnbuckle, allowing leveling and relative tension adjustments once the full load is in place.  Coming up from the platform are threaded rods that will be used to help attach the upper platform.





Fig. 7 - Riser tubes and bumpers in place.  ABS plumbing (sewer) pipe was used.  Tubes were cut to uniform length with a miter saw blade clamped on wood blocks at the desired height off of a table top.  Space available meant 2 tubes needed to be cut into C-sections.





Fig. 8 - Completed assembly, minus turntable.   Riser tubes place upper swing platform about 1/4 inch above TT-1 frame.  Threaded rod tops poke up into available space in bottom of turntable.





Fig. 9 - Straight face/plan view of completed stack-up.


If you'll give me some time to catch my breath, I'll write up some notes on how I measure audio feedback levels and talk about what this rig does in that area.  (It is keeping me real happy - and even dancing around once in awhile!)

Cheers,  John



neobop

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Re: wall mounts?
« Reply #22 on: 25 Feb 2014, 04:22 pm »
This is a great project although a little complex for most of us.  I'm thinking of trying to adapt it for a different wall mount or even a table top.  Many other wall mounts are on brackets with a shelf on top.  I was thinking, the 9" risers could be firmly attached to the shelf at the bottom and still perform their function without the Target bracket in the middle.   

I haven't gotten as far as building.  One would have to consider the structural integrity of the risers and limiting the excursion of the pendulum.  I think limiting the excursion could be done with small tabs or aux risers attached to the front, back, and sides of the supporting shelf. 
neo




jschwenker

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Re: wall mounts?
« Reply #23 on: 26 Feb 2014, 03:19 pm »
This is a great project although a little complex for most of us.  I'm thinking of trying to adapt it for a different wall mount or even a table top.  Many other wall mounts are on brackets with a shelf on top.  I was thinking, the 9" risers could be firmly attached to the shelf at the bottom and still perform their function without the Target bracket in the middle.   

I haven't gotten as far as building.  One would have to consider the structural integrity of the risers and limiting the excursion of the pendulum.  I think limiting the excursion could be done with small tabs or aux risers attached to the front, back, and sides of the supporting shelf. 
neo

Thanks, neo.  Lotsa room for adaptation out there - have at it! 

The approx limits of +/- 0.4 inch that I used are pretty arbitrary.  There's no way my wall is moving 1/20th that much, even under "sufficient" volume levels.  Most of that wiggle room and the soft felt pads comes in a little handy when things get to moving around some while I change out records and push the start button etc. 

Depending on how solid it was, a table or stand mount version might give up some in the floor isolation department.  Just depends on which directions of extraneous audio or footio one is trying to kill...

Yers,  John

drummermitchell

Re: wall mounts?
« Reply #24 on: 26 Feb 2014, 03:56 pm »
I have had this wall mount for about 5yrs now.
Solid oak,slim profile,holds well over 200lbs.
I actually have a Clearaudio Champion II sitting on this which is 75-80 lbs.
She hasn't moved at all:



neobop

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Re: wall mounts?
« Reply #25 on: 27 Feb 2014, 01:24 pm »
I have had this wall mount for about 5yrs now.
Solid oak,slim profile,holds well over 200lbs.
I actually have a Clearaudio Champion II sitting on this which is 75-80 lbs.
She hasn't moved at all:



Nice looking shelf and platform.  In the past most instructions for DIY wall shelf said not to bolt the shelf onto the platform.  I wonder if that makes a difference. 

I think the need for additional isolation like the pendulum, depends mostly on the wall itself.  A load bearing wall might be less likely to move? 
neo

plastico

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Re: wall mounts?
« Reply #26 on: 27 Feb 2014, 02:05 pm »
I have to say, thats a very impressive wall mount jschwenker! I guess I got very lucky with my P3 and my wall mount, because I can actually jump in front of the table, and get room lock bass. But come to think of it,it is a supporting wall!
Doug





jschwenker

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Re: wall mounts?
« Reply #27 on: 27 Feb 2014, 02:41 pm »
Yes, very nice lookin rigs, y'all!  Both benefitting from that extra mass thing too - mmmm good...

When I initially installed just the wall shelf I too was impervious to footfalls or jumping up and down - that's the first reason for using them.  Where I got into trouble was adding the subwoofers.  Capable of lower bass, the wall shaking at LFs transferring that in/out motion to the TT then became the new problem.  As you've probably seen on other sites, many folks with similar concerns have had some success with things like little bike tire tubes to float the platform or just leaving the mass of the TT/platform loose may be enough in some cases.

A guitar string will change its response characteristic when you change the load on it but beams (or walls) under compression don't start doing that until you begin to flex them into a buckling condition - which I certainly hope yawl's load bearing walls are a long way away from!!  (Before building my rig I did contemplate adding some stiffness (extra 2x4s) and some mass (slim cinder blocks in between 2x4s) to the back of that wall in the garage.  - but that's not the same thing as a wall vertical loading difference)

Cheers,  John

jschwenker

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Re: wall mounts?
« Reply #28 on: 27 Feb 2014, 03:18 pm »
One thing that could make a pretty large difference in walls:  In construction that is newer or a little larger or more deluxe, sometimes load bearing walls can be based on 2x6s not 2x4s.  The basic stiffness of the wall (the spring rate) would go up by the cube of the thickness ratio.  Then the mass-spring response would go up in frequency by the square of the spring rate change.  All else held very roughly equal, the freq response of a 2x6 wall might be some 10x higher than a 2x4 wall.  This would GREATLY limit the amplitude possible for LF and shift most of the energy up into a region where the turntable inner suspension could much more easily deal with it.

Over n out,  John

plastico

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Re: wall mounts?
« Reply #29 on: 27 Feb 2014, 07:35 pm »
I gotta tell you John, it always seems so simple when someone like you explains what is happenning! :thumb:
Doug

mgsboedmisodpc2

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Re: wall mounts?
« Reply #30 on: 10 Jun 2014, 01:31 am »
nice jschwenker
Tell me how level was the Target ?
My skill weren't to great at getting the stand horizontally level.
Thank goodness for the platform adjusting screws.
Vibrations from demolition trucks several builds down still come thru though

drummermitchell

Re: wall mounts?
« Reply #31 on: 10 Jun 2014, 03:51 am »
John,
Even with that wall mount I have on a load bearing wall I had trouble with subs.
I like my bottom end also and like to bring up the faders once in awhile.
Our other living room I had 2x DD-15's and using just one I could only turn up to around 9:00.
Then I would get feed back thru the sub and was obviously worse with two.
So I thought I'd try out some bass trapping in the corners............SHOWTIME,no feedback,bottom end is a lot more focused punchy articulate  ect.
Three yrs ago we bought another house and I have RealTraps Mondo modules throughout with diffusion ect.
But now I use a Velodyne 1812 sub and the same thing with spinning LP's,I can turn the Vac pre  up to 11 if desired with NO FEED BACK,needle jumping,nothing just music.
Read about on some other sites where people try all kinds of adjustments,changing cartridges,realign everything and still they have feed back,jumping ect.
All they have to do is go to a hardware store pick up some R-30 bags,pop them in the corner and see if they don't get better bottom end with their TT with subs.
Once they try that they can return the bags of R-30 and get some Realtraps(NO PUN)and it's FREEEEE :thumb:.
Quite amazing how we forget our room and figure it's our gear at fault.

jschwenker

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Re: wall mounts?
« Reply #32 on: 10 Jun 2014, 05:35 am »
nice jschwenker
Tell me how level was the Target ?
My skill weren't to great at getting the stand horizontally level.
Thank goodness for the platform adjusting screws.
Vibrations from demolition trucks several builds down still come thru though

Thanks!

Funny story there.  I managed to get the wall mount shelf pretty good and level when installing it.  However I failed to notice (or remember) that the floor and therefore the cabinet right under things was not very level - leading to things looking out of whack.  I ended up "splitting the difference" when adjusting - to make things look a little more squared up. 

Here's some audio heresy for you.  A few turntable types (say most notably air bearing or other free floating linear tonearms) need to be leveled very well.  Most of those with fairly ordinary pivoted arms actually do not.  The degree of offset of lateral forces that might arise from a few degrees even of non-level condition are just simply SMALL when compared to what results from the lack of precision that most all of us can regularly achieve with our anti-skating force settings.  My recommendation is to not sweat the leveling thing too much...

I'm hoping the demolition environment you are putting up with is short lived - though it does sound like you are more sensitive than you should be.  If you still have problems, it sounds to me like you just might have something else going on.  You might want to look and see if you are mechanically "grounded" out between the turntable base and plinth.  Sometimes things can get shifted around.  Push on the turntable inner platform (plinth) and see if it moves in a rubbery fashion in ALL directions with respect to the base structure.  If not you may need to lift and shift it until it does work better.  Other than that you might want to double check some of the tonearm setup adjustments - maybe particularly the anti-skate.  Good luck!

Cheers,  John

jschwenker

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Re: wall mounts?
« Reply #33 on: 10 Jun 2014, 05:37 am »
John,
Even with that wall mount I have on a load bearing wall I had trouble with subs.
I like my bottom end also and like to bring up the faders once in awhile.
Our other living room I had 2x DD-15's and using just one I could only turn up to around 9:00.
Then I would get feed back thru the sub and was obviously worse with two.
So I thought I'd try out some bass trapping in the corners............SHOWTIME,no feedback,bottom end is a lot more focused punchy articulate  ect.
Three yrs ago we bought another house and I have RealTraps Mondo modules throughout with diffusion ect.
But now I use a Velodyne 1812 sub and the same thing with spinning LP's,I can turn the Vac pre  up to 11 if desired with NO FEED BACK,needle jumping,nothing just music.
Read about on some other sites where people try all kinds of adjustments,changing cartridges,realign everything and still they have feed back,jumping ect.
All they have to do is go to a hardware store pick up some R-30 bags,pop them in the corner and see if they don't get better bottom end with their TT with subs.
Once they try that they can return the bags of R-30 and get some Realtraps(NO PUN)and it's FREEEEE :thumb:.
Quite amazing how we forget our room and figure it's our gear at fault.

What type of mechanical isolation were you using, in addition to the wall mount?  I am surprised that trapping could be efficient enough when isolation was maybe not - but it is nice to hear that more than one way to skin the cat might work.  Glad that things are back in the groove for you.

Yers,  John

drummermitchell

Re: wall mounts?
« Reply #34 on: 10 Jun 2014, 01:19 pm »
No other mechanical isolation whatsoever.
That picture is from the company in the US and I just use the oak wall mount without the granite top.
At both houses the wall mount was on a outside wall,not a load bearing wall which goes to show how well bass trapping works,
especially for TT's .

mgsboedmisodpc2

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Re: wall mounts?
« Reply #35 on: 10 Jun 2014, 11:22 pm »
outside wall versus load bearing wall within an apartment how can one tell the difference

mgsboedmisodpc2

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Re: wall mounts?
« Reply #36 on: 10 Jun 2014, 11:28 pm »
Additional mechanical isolation used with the wall mount would be


mgsboedmisodpc2

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Re: wall mounts?
« Reply #37 on: 10 Jun 2014, 11:40 pm »
The target pro wall shelf is actually not attached to the wall but instead is attached to the  Easy Hang Standards which is attached wall as well as the load bearing hang Shelf Track which is connected to the wall studs via wall anchors six of them