[drphoto]

I want to love the vinyl. I like the look of the TT. I like the whole process involved. But frankly it just doesn't sound as good as my digital rig. (an amazing one off Stan Warren setup)

 I'm still running the stock Thorens TD-165 my buddy gave me (complete w/ the crappy fixed cables) but installed the Grado Green w/ my version of the Longhorn. Warmer (which is good IMHO) than the Shure but it still sounds, well....small. It doesn't have that expansive soundstage.

Plus, I have a hum issue. The Thorens doesn't have a ground cable. Do I need to rig one?

[timind]

But frankly it just doesn't sound as good as my digital rig.

You aren't alone there. I grew up with lps and should probably love them for their nostalgic value but I don't.

[TheChairGuy]

I want to love the vinyl. I like the look of the TT. I like the whole process involved. But frankly it just doesn't sound as good as my digital rig. (an amazing one off Stan Warren setup)

I'm still running the stock Thorens TD-165 my buddy gave me (complete w/ the crappy fixed cables) but installed the Grado Green w/ my version of the Longhorn. Warmer (which is good IMHO) than the Shure but it still sounds, well....small. It doesn't have that expansive soundstage.

Plus, I have a hum issue. The Thorens doesn't have a ground cable. Do I need to rig one?

So much of this hobby is subjective, of course...but, I'm not overly fond of suspended decks in general.  They sound overly 'plush' and soft where music should be tight and dynamic.

The second part that could be bothering you is the speed regulation of the Thorens...it, umm, isn't .  Whereas your digital has no issue there.

There are a hundred things to tinker with on a vinyl front end....somewhere along the line if you allow it time, you will have the 'ah-ha' moment where you realize your digital rig ain't as great as you currently think 

Unfortunately, most folks don't go the last yard to find vinyl bliss....and look back at their time with vinyl as a failure.  Persevere, good Doctor, we the assembled vinylphools are not as nutty as you may currently think

John

[hesson11]

I think you might have to consider analog gear that is not "good for the price" but "good, period." You won't have to spend a fortune, but if your experience is like mine, it will be well worth it.

-Bob

[TONEPUB]

Dr.Photo, I feel your pain.

I've been struggling with analog on and off for 25 years now and it's always been a battle. The sound of great digital has gotten so good, that unless I have a record with flawless mastering, it's just as good on the digital side and in many cases better.

Today I looked at three turntables, four tonearms, five cartridges and two fairly expensive phono preamps and thought to myself, "I could sell all this stuff, go buy a Porsche, put the top down and relax!"

Seriously.

I'd never sell my record collection, but there have been days where I think about selling all of it but my modded SL-1200, EAR 834P and calling it a day.

[jimdgoulding]

I use an entry level Nottingham TT, the Rega arm that came with it with a slight mod, and a mid priced Grado Sonata cartridge.  As a pre-digital old guy, I know about how to set things up.  I have a young friend with a computer based system consisting of a very expensive EMM Labs DAC and a Placette volume control and a very reputable class D amp.  I didn't put these words in his month, let me assure you, he said that listening to music with my analog front end- he has listened with my digital front end a few times but his reference had to have been his own- music sounded "more organic and natural".

It does.  The significance and value of this, and we're not talking this and that, is at the heart of the argument.  Digital, computer audio, so far as I can tell, does nothing better than analog save for surface noise, it's modern, and you can more easily build your own library.  Most guys making an argument otherwise, just don't know, IMO.  I wouldn't be without my analog front end any more than I would be without music.  I couldn't be and I have both.

[Wayner]

Have you done the correct cartridge alignment?

Wayner

[jrtrent]

You may not be giving vinyl a chance with a 35-year old, mid-fi deck as a source.  I still well remember being amazed at how much more involving music became when I switched to an LP12 from a Thorens TD146 (which I had purchased new less than a year prior to buying the Linn).

Even some very good turntable setups sound "small" in terms of soundstaging, but have other strengths their owners value more highly.  You might read Art Dudley's review of the VPI Scout.  That's a reasonably-priced deck that might have the sonic character you're looking for.  Even better, of course, would be to take your digital source to a VPI dealer, if there's one near you, and compare.  I'm not saying you'll prefer the VPI, but I think it's a good way to see if vinyl has any qualities you'll find appealing.

"The VPI combo also sounded different from the Linn in its sense of scale and space. The Scout and JMW-9 did a better job of separating voices and instruments from one another, and overall created a bigger "stage" between the speakers. The Linn/Naim combo sounds smaller, with more of a chunky, mono-like focus that some may or may not prefer." http://www.stereophile.com/turntables/776/index2.html

[kingdeezie]

I feel with vinyl that everything in the analog chain is extremely important.

A solid transport and a good DAC will net you some fairly decent digital playback that presents a very decent soundstage and an inky black background.

The turntable, arm, cartridge, cartridge alignment, phono pre-amplification, proper isolation of the TT, etc, etc; all need to be synergistically intertwined; or your sound can be horrid.

I went from a pre-setup Project Debut to a Michell Gyrodec/Tecnoarm, and it took me over a year to not regret the purchase.

As big as the price differential was, I had never set up a turntable like the Gyrodec before (being as I am only 26 and missed the first vinyl reign), and I feel like just a few months ago I really started to just begin to dial-it-in. Cartridge alignment is still murderous.

In the end though, when I drop the needle on some of my favorite records, its magical. It sounds so much more open and natural then my digital front end.

[sts9fan]

Totally agree with you Drphoto. Too much tweaking for me.  I forsee an ok vinyl rng in my system for rare use.

[SteveFord]

As previous posters have said, you may wish to take a day and audition some of the better turntable and cartridge combinations out there.
A really good vinyl set up puts digital to shame.
With a so-so turntable/cartridge/phono stage set up the nod goes to digital.
You don't have to spend a fortune, just keep your eyes open as there's tons of good used equipment out there.

[vinyl_guy]

As previous posters have said, you may wish to take a day and audition some of the better turntable and cartridge combinations out there.
A really good vinyl set up puts digital to shame.With a so-so turntable/cartridge/phono stage set up the nod goes to digital.
You don't have to spend a fortune, just keep your eyes open as there's tons of good used equipment out there.

+ 1 I've had music lovers with great digital rigs, both CD and computer based, drop their jaws when they hear familiar music on my turntable which I bought on Audiogon

[decal]

I grew up with vinyl and have owned some really nice rigs.The older I got,the less I liked all the "rituals" of vinyl.The cleaning,adjusting,fussing,fighting,etc. just got to be a big hassle for me.I realized that I had rather listen to music than fuss with equipment.Don't get me wrong,there is nothing like the sound of a well setup analog rig but,I'm just not into the work it requires anymore.That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!!

[TONEPUB]

+ 1 I've had music lovers with great digital rigs, both CD and computer based, drop their jaws when they hear familiar music on my turntable which I bought on Audiogon

You have an sme 20, arguably one of the best tables made...
(at least in my book!)

[jimdgoulding]

Have you done the correct cartridge alignment?

Wayner

I should have asked, also  

[vinyl_guy]

You have an sme 20, arguably one of the best tables made...
(at least in my book!)

I feel very blessed to be able to listen to vinyl on the SME 20 with an SME IV.Vi arm and a Lyra Skala. The TT/arm/cartridge set up definitely makes a difference. Before the SME 20 I had a Project Perspective with a Sumiko Blackbird. A very good set up, especially for the money, but not jaw dropping like the SME 20/Skala.

[drphoto]

As far as setup, I honestly don't know. I put the new cart in as square to the headshell as I could by eye. Looks level front to back. I've got a VTF gauge on order. I plan to reread all the tips in the setup sticky.

I have a feeling it's the table itself, but I was hoping I could do this on the cheap. The one thing I've noticed w/ the suspension, if you push on the platter (while it's not running of course) to activate the suspension....it squeaks! That can't be good. Of course the Thorens I owned 30 years ago did the same thing.

It does seem to be rather impervious to low end feedback however, despite my running 3 subs.

The hum issue has started since I installed the Grado. The previous was a Shure M95. (I originally posted that it was a V15)

I'm keeping my eye on the trading post and AG. Sort of confusing, because as in all things audio everyone has their favorites, you know, there's the Rega crowd, the VPI fans, the Linn lovefest and so on.

There's a dealer for Rega near Cincy (about 90 minutes from me) Maybe I should make a road trip. And yeah, it'd be fun to take Stan Warren DAC. They'd probably double over laughing when they see the actual name on the case.

I'm not throwing in the towel yet. My return to to tubes has convinced me that there are some technologies that still can't be beat.

BTW: I appreciate all the replies to my somewhat rambling post here.

also: John, I certainly don't think you guys are nuts. Nuts is to continue to go play golf year after year w/ little improvement. But I still do it!

Big soundstage is a high priority for me. Maybe it's just a parlor trick as someone once said, but it's one that I like. My current infatuation w/ my little Mapletree pre is that the SS is now wall to wall and has real depth.

[Ericus Rex]

Hmmm.  Square to the headshell isn't always right.  You can download protractors that will help you get it properly aligned.  Millimeters make huge differences in cartridge setup.  Overhang of the stylus is also quite important and the protractor would help you there too.  How's the azimuth?

[acidaho]

 I've been doing CD's since day 1 and new to vinyl (about 6 mo's) and absolutely thrilled with it......only have a Technics SL-1300 with ADC XLM MK II but it has become my favorite listening. Check your pre-amps.

 Actually I think the analog resurgence is happening too fast......making LP's a grab bag and I hope it slows down. If you like digital better, it sure makes audio life a lot simpler. I alternate between FM broadcast, cassettes, CD's and vinyl and really enjoy it all too much (he he). I wish I could scratch just one so I could get some much needed work done.

 Actually, it's the internet involvement with all of the above that's eating me up

[drphoto]

Just downloaded a protractor. I think the azimuth (that's the vertical angle, right?) looks ok, but I'm kinda lost here for the most part. I don't think the guy who gave me the table knows anything about setup either.