Is the Squeezebox Touch a good transport?

Gopher · « **on:** 17 May 2010, 01:51 am »

I moved from a Duet with unmodified Parts Express power supply to a Touch with Boulder modified Elpac recently and am not sure I'm seeing the upgrade I had hoped to. I'm using the Squeezebox into my Eastern Electric Sabre32 DAC and while it was pretty resolving and sounds great for what it is, it is clearly inferior as a transport to my Philips 963SA.

In comparing the two the philips is a richer, more developed sound that is just as fast and a lot more engaging.

Its more resolving with the DAC than I remember the Duet being, but the balance and sound seems to have change... Is anyone else not sold on the Touch as a transport? Is it possible I got a dud?

mcullinan · « **Reply #1 on:** 17 May 2010, 02:00 am »

Uh that would be your DAC buddy. Between the SB3 and the Touch, the Touch as a transport is far superior. The clarity & detail are excellent. Using the same DAC the BDA-1, you can instantly hear the difference between the two. Also use a linear power supply for the best signal.
M

mdconnelly · « **Reply #2 on:** 17 May 2010, 02:14 am »

I've found the Touch to be a very good transport and definitely a step up from my Duet.

What digital IC are you using? Are you using the same type of digital IC between the Touch and DAC as between the Philips 963A & DAC or are you just comparing the Touch/DAC with the 963A CD player? FWIW, I have found that a cheap digital IC can have quite a significant negative impact and effectively mask any differences in the source.

Wayne1 · « **Reply #3 on:** 17 May 2010, 02:56 am »

Your power supply will require 2-3 weeks constant use to break-in. About the same amount is required for the Touch to sound it's best.

I am using a Touch with a bit better power supply than you have into an EE DAC. It is by far the best digital I have had in my system. Give everything some time.

NewBuyer · « **Reply #4 on:** 17 May 2010, 10:09 am »

Quote from: Gopher on 17 May 2010, 01:51 am

...not sure I'm seeing the upgrade I had hoped to. I'm using the Squeezebox into my Eastern Electric Sabre32 DAC and while it was pretty resolving and sounds great for what it is, it is clearly inferior as a transport to my Philips 963SA.

In comparing the two the philips is a richer, more developed sound that is just as fast and a lot more engaging.

Its more resolving with the DAC than I remember the Duet being, but the balance and sound seems to have change... Is anyone else not sold on the Touch as a transport? Is it possible I got a dud?

I don't think you got a dud Touch.

Some do report improvements when using it, and for some reason others report the Touch sounds worse in their systems (I don't know what technically would account for the difference). Users not impressed with the Touch, have described the sound as becoming flat and poorly involving, with a less life-like sound quality.

I've lately been trying out the Touch alongside an SB3 and a separate transport in several systems, and I haven't heard differences as extreme as others have found. Especially interesting however (at least to me) was when trying all of these into a Benchmark PRE - which resulted in absolutely no difference that any of us could hear, within the several systems tried.

However, the Benchmark is an Ultralock design (not a PLL-design): It is noted for its highly-isolated conversion clock and for showing no measurable jitter-induced artifacts resulting from normal use of any of its digital interfaces. Other DACs seem to react differently to the Touch.

I don't know if I'll be keeping the Touch, but I'm definitely a big fan of the SD/Logitech products! Their convenience is just incredible.

firedog · « **Reply #5 on:** 17 May 2010, 10:21 am »

If you are using the Touch as a digital transport only, does the PS make a difference? Seems like it shouldn't.

If so, on how does it effect the digital stream?

Wayne1 · « **Reply #6 on:** 17 May 2010, 10:45 am »

Quote from: firedog on 17 May 2010, 10:21 am

If you are using the Touch as a digital transport only, does the PS make a difference? Seems like it shouldn't.

If so, on how does it effect the digital stream?

Where does the signal actually come from? The power supply. The power supply affects everything. What are the "1s and zeros"? )0V and 3.3 V. EVERYTHING in audio is dependent on the power supply.

eclein · « **Reply #7 on:** 17 May 2010, 11:32 am »

Quote from: Wayne1 on 17 May 2010, 10:45 am

Where does the signal actually come from? The power supply. The power supply affects everything. What are the "1s and zeros"? )0V and 3.3 V. EVERYTHING in audio is dependent on the power supply.

+1 on the power supply

mcullinan · « **Reply #8 on:** 17 May 2010, 12:59 pm »

Its pretty much your entire audio system. Your PCs, interconnects, amps, pre, speakers, DAC & Source; everything. As you make changes, hopefully for the better.. but not always! your system becomes more revealing. Not that mine is the utmost in that dept. but def better than when I started in this hobby.
M

TJHUB · « **Reply #9 on:** 17 May 2010, 01:08 pm »

I had a Touch for a couple of weeks that I thought would replace my Duet, but it didn't. I had the Touch connected to my setup for nearly 2 weeks and I compared the two with a friend on his setup one evening.

To sum things up, the Touch did not sound "better" via either of its digital outs. I do think the Touch sounded better via its analog outs, but only in overall tonality. Both still suffer for imaging, separation, and overall stage dimension IMO.

To make a long story short, the Touch basically sounds more open and revealing compared to the Duet when using the coax connections. However, the Touch only sounded "brighter" to me and my friend. We also both thought the Touch's presentation of cymbals was VERY digital or unrealistic sounding. We also found the midrange to sound a bit thin and some vocals came off sounding odd. Neither of us found the Touch to be as engaging as the Duet. When comparing the Touch to the Duet, switching back to the Duet made it sound rolled off and dark. It would take a minute or so to realize that even though the Duet sounded this way in comparison, it wasn't lacking any detail and actually sounded much better overall. The Duet produced cymbals and had a much nicer sounding midrange with vocals sounding "better". I personally didn't really hear much of a difference in bass between them.

During the comparison at my friend's house, we ended up comparing the Touch to the Duet while connected to the same DAC (we both have identically modified Music Hall DACs that we have compared on several occasions). This is where something strange happened. The Touch was connected via toslink and the Duet was connected via coax. Now they sounded more similar than different. Actually for the first time, the Touch sounded better. It was smoother and was producing the sound of cymbals very well and the midrange and vocals were very good. Confused by this find, we swapped the Duet and Touch and the difference was HUGE. The Touch once again sounded much worse.

So we decided to connect both DACs via toslink. Now they were nearly identical sounding. But we did figure out one thing during the toslink testing. My friend's Monster toslink sounded better than my Radio Shack gold toslink. I haven't used toslink cables in my setup for quite some time now because coax is "better". Hmmm...

So after concluding that toslink seemed to sound "better" with both the Touch and the Duet, I decided to pull the trigger on a glass toslink. Best thing I've done for my setup in a long time. The glass toslink didn't really seem to change the overall tonality of my Duet, but the clarity is absolutely amazing! Along with this clarity came precise imaging and much better separation. I have always had a huge, wide sound stage from my tube preamp and DAC, but it seems just a bit deeper and much more coherent. The clarity has increased definition throughout the entire frequency range. I couldn't possibly be happier with the improvements.

For the record, I do think it's possible that my choice of digital coax cable could be a factor here. I use Blue Jeans for all of them and I haven't tried anything better. Nonetheless, the comparisons I did were using the same cables and lengths, so I suppose all is still fair.

So to sum up: the Touch really did nothing "better" than the Duet in my setup nor my friend's. The digital coax out just didn't sound good at all to either of us. The toslink outs of both the Touch and Duet sounded very similar and only the unit with the better toslink cable sounded better. I sent the Touch back a week ago and I am thoroughly enjoying my Duet with it's new glass toslink cable.

eclein · « **Reply #10 on:** 17 May 2010, 01:24 pm »

TJHUB- thanks for posting, I thought I was alone in the choice of using toslink with my Duet, glad to hear someone else is experiencing the same thing I am.

Gopher · « **Reply #11 on:** 17 May 2010, 02:09 pm »

Quote from: mcullinan on 17 May 2010, 02:00 am

Uh that would be your DAC buddy. Between the SB3 and the Touch, the Touch as a transport is far superior. The clarity & detail are excellent. Using the same DAC the BDA-1, you can instantly hear the difference between the two. Also use a linear power supply for the best signal.
M

Not sure what problem you think is caused by my DAC... I can easily hear the difference between transports, my question isn't whether the change is exists, but whether it is preferred.

I never heard the SB3, but the Duet I owned had a superior digital out to it from what I've gathered, so its sort of irrelevant as a reference.

So far the Philips 963SA's digital out connected to my EE DAC via M.A.C. Digital cable sounds considerably better than the Touch with Bolder modded Elpac and the same M.A.C. cable. I didn't want it to be so, but its quite obvious.

I'll give the PSU more burn in time and see how I feel in a week or so. Its not bad, its just different not as enjoyable in my system.

TJHUB, It sounds like your are feeling EXACTLY what I felt about the Touch via Cox. Very interesting indeed--had I read this earlier I probably would have kept my Duet as I much preferred the remote. Still, there is so much positive praise out there regarding the touch that I feel I need to try it with a better/different coax before trying the optical route. I do recall preferring a cheap Tosh over digital coax with the duet... Interesting stuff indeed.

Gopher · « **Reply #12 on:** 17 May 2010, 02:40 pm »

Quote from: Wayne1 on 17 May 2010, 02:56 am

Your power supply will require 2-3 weeks constant use to break-in. About the same amount is required for the Touch to sound it's best.

I am using a Touch with a bit better power supply than you have into an EE DAC. It is by far the best digital I have had in my system. Give everything some time.

Wayne,

When you say constant use do you mean the player actually has to be generating music? My unit is always powered on, and I assumed that would be sufficient for burn in, even if music isn't being played.

Occam · « **Reply #13 on:** 17 May 2010, 02:42 pm »

TJHUB,

Yours is not an unusual finding at all. While even a glass toslink does not offer the pulse fidelity of a properly implemented coax connection, it does offer the tremendous benefit of electrical isolation between transport and dac. If your transport is coupling internal noise to its coax spdif output, it interferes with the operation of spdif input circuitry. If you have properly implemented spdif coupling transformer either or your transport or dac (or both), which provided galvanic isolation between the two, you'll generally find the coax spdif preferable.

GBB (Gary) discussed this a long time ago -
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=24353.msg217382;topicseen#msg217382

Regards,
Paul

mcullinan · « **Reply #14 on:** 17 May 2010, 02:43 pm »

Perhaps its your digital cable? idk. Ive never heard the Duet dig outputs..
In my system I dont hear any thinness in the midrange or fakey cymbals.There are so many variables, its not as easy to pin down as it seems.
M

Wayne what do you think? Do you hear an issue with the Dig outs on the touch?

Nice Thanks Paul.

TJHUB · « **Reply #15 on:** 17 May 2010, 03:41 pm »

Quote from: Occam on 17 May 2010, 02:42 pm

TJHUB,

Yours is not an unusual finding at all. While even a glass toslink does not offer the pulse fidelity of a properly implemented coax connection, it does offer the tremendous benefit of electrical isolation between transport and dac. If your transport is coupling internal noise to its coax spdif output, it interferes with the operation of spdif input circuitry. If you have properly implemented spdif coupling transformer either or your transport or dac (or both), which provided galvanic isolation between the two, you'll generally find the coax spdif preferable.

GBB (Gary) discussed this a long time ago -
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=24353.msg217382;topicseen#msg217382

Regards,
Paul

Previously, I've never put much thought into toslink vs. coax. I just went with what is considered to be "best"; coax. As I stumbled across this find during the Touch vs. Duet comparisons, I've done a little more research on the whole subject as to why a glass toslink sounds so much better for my setup. I had no idea of the difference in bandwidths or why one could sound better than the other. I heard what I heard and tried the glass toslink and it's working wonders for me. I don't know if it's internal noise or not.

It could be my DAC's implementation, my particular digital coax cable, or whatever. All I know is that this glass toslink cable sounds amazing in my setup and I couldn't be happier with the find. I was considering the purchase of a "better" digital coax cable, but a $45.00 glass toslink was a lot cheaper.

I am curious though. Has anyone else compared the Touch's digital coax out to the toslink? Again, we found the toslink of both the Touch and Duet to be very similar while the digital coax outs were very different.

mdconnelly · « **Reply #16 on:** 17 May 2010, 04:31 pm »

When I first purchased my Duet awhile back, I compared a fairly inexpensive glass toslink cable to two different digital RCA-terminated ICs. The cheap digital coax IC definitely sounded hard and edgy typical of the worst of digital playback. The glass toslink sounded better - more relaxed, less glare. Then I tried a Granite Audio 420 75ohm RCA-terminated IC which seemed to keep the best of the toslink yet added more detail & space. That experience convinced me that if a digital IC is not well designed, your ears will pay the price.

When I got the Touch about a month ago, I felt that it definitely sounded better - more refined and musical - than my Duet - both using the Granite Audio digital IC to my Oracle DAC.

Last week I had the opportunity to try the new Black Cat Veloce 75ohm digital IC and I've gotta say, this is a VERY nice digital IC. I've been burning it in now for about 2 days on my Touch and I think it is already sounding better than the Granite Audio 420. If you're looking for a new digital IC, I think this is one worth checking out. Chris Sommovigo, the designer, has an interesting writeup on his site about the design:

http://www.blackcatcable.com/page/75-ohms-and-you

NewBuyer · « **Reply #17 on:** 17 May 2010, 11:05 pm »

Quote from: eclein on 17 May 2010, 01:24 pm

TJHUB- thanks for posting, I thought I was alone in the choice of using toslink with my Duet, glad to hear someone else is experiencing the same thing I am.

Not alone at all.

It's come up from several people over the years (myself included), both here at at the SlimDevices forum, that a good glass toslink cable can outperform coax digital from the SlimDevices units. I don't know exactly why this can happen, as Toslink is often looked upon as inferior - but some things that have been previously suggested, are that Toslink gives theoretically pure galvanic/electrical isolation (even better than pulse-transformer coupling), doesn't suffer from impedance issues, is less susceptible to return-loss and signal-reflection issues, isn't affected by the dialectric problems of coax, etc. Glass fiber also has much better bandwidth than plastic fiber, and when the ends are terminated with a good tight-fitting connector, things just seem to work out very well when used with the SlimDevices units. So it's not "supposed" to sound better - but for some reason it often just does anyway!

eclein · « **Reply #18 on:** 17 May 2010, 11:20 pm »

I love it...now I'm thinking OK

, I'll find a better toslink cable as opposed to my $3 ones from Amaz.. so I'm looking for specifically glass designation in the product description?? after a quick look at parts exp..they are typically $30 ish? On a fixed income here so I can't go nuts or I would believe me!!!
Anyone have a link to a known good one thats not gonna cost a ton??
Not trying to hijack the thread-just a side bar as it were...

TJHUB · « **Reply #19 on:** 17 May 2010, 11:36 pm »

Quote from: eclein on 17 May 2010, 11:20 pm

I love it...now I'm thinking OK , I'll find a better toslink cable as opposed to my $3 ones from Amaz.. so I'm looking for specifically glass designation in the product description?? after a quick look at parts exp..they are typically $30 ish? On a fixed income here so I can't go nuts or I would believe me!!!
Anyone have a link to a known good one thats not gonna cost a ton??
Not trying to hijack the thread-just a side bar as it were...

If you search A'zon or Fleeb' for "glass toslink" you will find the Sonicwave or equivalent which are supposedly very good. I have the Sonicwave from Parts Express due to their return policy. And yes, it MUST say "glass" or don't buy it.