[G E]

I have been following this forum for a while now and have had an email exchange or two or three with John Casler about VMPS products.  A pair of RM30M's was listed for sale on Audiogon and since it was local I had the opportunity to check them out in person.  The interesting angle is that these speakers had never been set up, essentially a new pair.  The backstory is on Audiogon for the curious.

These speakers in piano gloss black are visual stunners.  I did some preliminary listening and knowing they had not been broken in heard their potential.  I got them home without incident and set them up in my dedicated listening room (12.5 x 15 x 9, floor to ceiling bass traps in corners, two 2x4 OC703 absorptive panels per wall surface, carpeted floor).  The equipment room is a door-less walk in closet adjacent to the speakers.

My first impression on power up with music was that I had just made an expensive mistake.  But I also recalled the glowing reviews and awards the VMPS product line has garnered, and the positive comments here.  So I figured they needed some break-in time, positioning and tweaking.

Initially the woofers were pointed outwards, I swapped their positions so they fired inward.  Big bass improvement.  I was still concerned about the honky midrange and harsh high end:  I backed off the L-Pad settings a little and that helped some.

My wife came down to check them out I played selections from a number of discs, primarily these were hi-res recordings (SACD and DVD-a and a few redbook discs).  After about an hour I noticed some improvement in the overall sound quality and that the bass had really clicked into place.  The high-end harshness was still evident but decreasing, midrange was still a little lean.

I put a disc on “repeat” and came back a few hours later.  The improvement was notable.  The next few hours I continued sampling my music collection and I was stunned by the resolving power of these speakers.  The bass continued to improve.  I stayed up well past my bed time as I surveyed recordings on LP, CD and sacd/dvd-a.  LP reproduction was amazing given that I am using a 30 year old Harman Kardon tt and a $40 grado cartridge (5 yearsold).  Redbook CDs just don't cut it, but I already knew that.

I put my player on repeat for the night.  I dropped in briefly this morning to change discs (Mahler 9th) and listened to it briefly.  Amazing how the individual instruments can be heard in comparison to how my 20 year old Infinity Kappa 8's could not.  I also reset treble and midrange controls to the 12 and 12:30 positions.  Time (wife) did not allow for  listening session however.

So my plan is to continue 24x7 burn in for this week and revisit next Friday night.  I will use an old tuner I rarely use as a source instead of my Pioneer 79 avi player. Next week I will work on positioning, l-pad tweaking if needed etc.  I plan to leave the putty pinching business until last.

Btw, the electronics in my system are van Alstine Fet Valve preamp, van alstine 440 exh power amp (220 watts/channel).  Kappa 8's are now back channels with van alstine Omega 3 poweramp.

I also looked on the vmps website for a manual but did not see one.  Is it available for download somewhere?

I look forward to next weekend sessions.  I heard moments of magic in the past 24 hours and can't wait to see how the sound “matures” as break-in hours accumulate.

ge

[Scottdazzle]

Be patient.  My pair continued to improve for weeks.  You got a great deal and you're gonna love the speakers!   

[John Casler]

I have been following this forum for a while now and have had an email exchange or two or three with John Casler about VMPS products.  A pair of RM30M's was listed for sale on Audiogon and since it was local I had the opportunity to check them out in person.  The interesting angle is that these speakers had never been set up, essentially a new pair.  The backstory is on Audiogon for the curious.

   What a SCORE!!!

These speakers in piano gloss black are visual stunners.  I did some preliminary listening and knowing they had not been broken in heard their potential.  I got them home without incident and set them up in my dedicated listening room (12.5 x 15 x 9, floor to ceiling bass traps in corners, two 2x4 OC703 absorptive panels per wall surface, carpeted floor).  The equipment room is a door-less walk in closet adjacent to the speakers.

My first impression on power up with music was that I had just made an expensive mistake.  But I also recalled the glowing reviews and awards the VMPS product line has garnered, and the positive comments here.  So I figured they needed some break-in time, positioning and tweaking.

No mistake unless you could have purchased them sooner

Initially the woofers were pointed outwards, I swapped their positions so they fired inward. Big bass improvement.

Strangely enough this works well in some rooms

   I was still concerned about the honky midrange and harsh high end:  I backed off the L-Pad settings a little and that helped some.

My wife came down to check them out I played selections from a number of discs, primarily these were hi-res recordings (SACD and DVD-a and a few redbook discs).  After about an hour I noticed some improvement in the overall sound quality and that the bass had really clicked into place.  The high-end harshness was still evident but decreasing, midrange was still a little lean.

I put a disc on “repeat” and came back a few hours later.  The improvement was notable.  The next few hours I continued sampling my music collection and I was stunned by the resolving power of these speakers.  The bass continued to improve.  I stayed up well past my bed time as I surveyed recordings on LP, CD and sacd/dvd-a.  LP reproduction was amazing given that I am using a 30 year old Harman Kardon tt and a $40 grado cartridge (5 yearsold).  Redbook CDs just don't cut it, but I already knew that.

I put my player on repeat for the night.  I dropped in briefly this morning to change discs (Mahler 9th) and listened to it briefly.  Amazing how the individual instruments can be heard in comparison to how my 20 year old Infinity Kappa 8's could not.  I also reset treble and midrange controls to the 12 and 12:30 positions.  Time (wife) did not allow for  listening session however.

The microresolution on the VMPS is second to none.  The 12-12:30 L-pad positioning is pretty common on many systems.

So my plan is to continue 24x7 burn in for this week and revisit next Friday night.  I will use an old tuner I rarely use as a source instead of my Pioneer 79 avi player. Next week I will work on positioning, l-pad tweaking if needed etc.  I plan to leave the putty pinching business until last.

Btw, the electronics in my system are van Alstine Fet Valve preamp, van alstine 440 exh power amp (220 watts/channel).  Kappa 8's are now back channels with van alstine Omega 3 poweramp.

I also looked on the vmps website for a manual but did not see one.  Is it available for download somewhere?

Basic set up guidlines are posted here:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=47927.0

Looks like you have a good handle on it so far.

They will continue to improve over the months.

I have seen many (including myself) talk of continual improvements over 6 months or more.  It is a good idea to wait a couple months on the putty (unless the bass sounds off) to allow the suspensions to loosen a bit.

I look forward to next weekend sessions.  I heard moments of magic in the past 24 hours and can't wait to see how the sound “matures” as break-in hours accumulate.

ge

Glad to have you in the club.

[G E]

John,

I appreciate your responses.  I popped into my listening room tonight to hear how they were coming along and from my short time with them, it sounds like they continue to smooth out.

I believe the reason for the improved bass response when I changed the layout to inward firing woofers was one previously aligned with the door opening to the equipment room (good bass in there) and the right one was probably too close to the bass trap in the corner.  I may swap them back again this weekend just to check it out again.

More postings later this week.

ge

[Russtafarian]

I've lived with the RM30s for about three years.  I too got that "expensive mistake" feeling when I first hooked them up.  Now I really like 'em but it's taken a while to get them where I want them.  Setup-wise, here's what's worked for me.

I know I'm in the minority here, but I hate what the waveguides do to the sound and I don't use them.  For toe in, I found either slight toe in or extreme toe in sounds best.  Right now I have the speakers about 8 feet apart, 9 feet from my couch, crossing firing about a foot in front of me. I use two laser levelers to set this.

In my room, side woofers sound better on the inside rather than on the outside.  Once the speakers are in their general position, move them incrementally forward and/or backward while listening to acoustic bass to get the smoothest midbass response in your room.

The midrange panels are the star of this speaker so level setting should start with them.  Start with the tweeter level down or off and listen to well-recorded voice, piano or acoustic bass to set the midpanel level in reference to the woofers.  I use female vocal and listen for the right balance of presence and body in the voice.  Too tubby or muffled, turn up. too thin or whispy, turn down.  This should be done for each speaker individually because the room will influence the woofer output of each speaker differently.

Set the tweeter level to taste listening for the most HF decay and air without vocals or cymbals getting too spitty or edgy.  Hope this helps.

Russ

[DFaulds]

Wow, $2K for a basically new pair.  That was one hell of a deal.

Congratulations.

[jonbee]

After 3 1/2 years, I'm still finding ways to make mine even better.
So my advice is to be patient. These speakers are fine tuneable in many more ways than most speakers. Level controls come first (mine are at 11:40 mids, 11:00 tweeters). I am using the rear ambience tweeter, so that adds some top end. I don't use the waveguides for serious listening; when I do use them I turn the controls all the way up.
Cabling has been a revelation to me. I use Clear Day silver for the mids and highs, large guage OFC cables for the woofers.
The putty can really help balance out the bottom, and of course distance from walls (at least 18" behind the speakers and 3 feet to the sides if you can do it).
Be patient, work away at it, and when it snaps together you should get great results, although taste is the final cut, of course.
When I think about what speakers from other cos. I should consider to get better sound than these in this size class, the choices start at over $10k and go up drastically in price. At $2k there is no used competition at all.
Above all have fun!

[GMuffley]

The shortest way to describe the RM-30s is: think Quad midrange, with more extended highs and lows and tremendous dynamic range.  The ability to tune the passive radiators with putty is a brilliant idea--simple and effective.

[jonbee]

I get the best midrange balance if I elevate the front of the speaker 1/2-3/4 inch by placing a slat of wood that thickness under the base a couple of inches from the front. I use a cross fire toe in as B recommends, crossing 18-24" in front of the listening position. I get excellent midrange balance this way.

[fredgarvin]

I get the best midrange balance if I elevate the front of the speaker 1/2-3/4 inch by placing a slat of wood that thickness under the base a couple of inches from the front. I use a cross fire toe in as B recommends, crossing 18-24" in front of the listening position. I get excellent midrange balance this way.

I too have found the tip up to be a nice tweak. Both with the RM1 and the 626R.

[John Casler]

After 3 1/2 years, I'm still finding ways to make mine even better.

Hi jonbee,

I have often wrtten the same thing and have VMPS clients regularly ask me how this is possible.

How can the sound keep improving after such a long time?

Obviously we can point to the adjustments whether it be the L-pads, the putty, or the new Digital and Analog "ACTIVE" X-Overs.

But I think it also has to do with the speakers ability to reflect virtually ALL the other changes in the system (you mentioned your wires) with such clairity.

So each and every change you make to your system can be heard to it value (good or bad)

I have an RM40 client in Simi Valley who recently made some changes to his Music Server System, that allowed for a higher resolution signal and reduced jitter.  The improved quality was easily heard and enjoyed. 

So my advice is to be patient. These speakers are fine tuneable in many more ways than most speakers. Level controls come first (mine are at 11:40 mids, 11:00 tweeters). I am using the rear ambience tweeter, so that adds some top end. I don't use the waveguides for serious listening; when I do use them I turn the controls all the way up.
Cabling has been a revelation to me. I use Clear Day silver for the mids and highs, large guage OFC cables for the woofers.
The putty can really help balance out the bottom, and of course distance from walls (at least 18" behind the speakers and 3 feet to the sides if you can do it).
Be patient, work away at it, and when it snaps together you should get great results, although taste is the final cut, of course.
When I think about what speakers from other cos. I should consider to get better sound than these in this size class, the choices start at over $10k and go up drastically in price. At $2k there is no used competition at all.
Above all have fun!

All excellent suggestions.

[G E]

Hello again!

A couple weeks have already slipped by since my initial posting and I am overdue for providing an update.

I have burned in the speakers 24x7 for the past two weeks.  I used two sources: fm tuner (sometimes tuned to a station sometimes beween for 'white noise').  Usually i put a SACD on repeat, changing the disc each day.  Why? Why not?

The transformation over these two weeks is remarkable!  The midrange honk is gone, the hard high end is all but gone (very recording dependent).  Bass has found depth and solidity (no putty pinching yet).

In my acoustically treated room the overall sound is sensitive to speaker placement.  For the time being the back edge of the speaker bases are about 6 inches from the front wall and the speakers are toed in to cross in front of my listening post.  Woofers fire inward.  So far this provides the best overall presentation. Waveguides = on. 

Some interesting observations – I am hearing some remarkable recordings of remarkable music.  I kinda expected to be blown away by some of the well-regarded 'modern' recordings, ones without brickwalling and smiley EQs.  And some of these are fine.  But it was some of my LPs from the early to mid 70's and the hi-res dvd-a/sacd productions of recordings of this time period that blew me away:

Strongly recommended are King Crimson “Lizard” dvd/a, David Crosby “If Only i Could Remember My Name” dvd/a, Graham Nash “Songs for Beginners” dvd/a, Pere Ubu “Modern Dance” dvd/a (no kidding folks), Roxy Music “Avalon” sacd, McDonald & Giles LP, Blondie “Plastic Letters” and “Parallel Lines” LPs, Elvis Costello “Trust” F-Beat LP, Lou Reed “Blue Mask” LP, Genesis "Lamb Lies Down" LP are ones that spring to mind.  And Frank Zappa's “Halloween” on dvd/a has some great examples of how good a guitar in the early 1970's could sound.  I look forward to exploring my musical library again this weekend.  I wish I had analog tape....

Thanks again for all of your suggestions and words of encouragement in the early goings of break in.  Much appreciated.  I will continue to adjust the mid panel and tweeter controls as outlined here, and of course speaker placement.  I may even try the woofers outward again.

One more question – I will be at some point in the not too distant future be looking for a multichannel preamp with  analog 5.1  in and out capability.  I don't need processing, that will be handled in the player.  I know of the Bryston sp2, Bel Canto Pre 6 and Paragon p7.  Does anyone here have experience with any of these with VMPS speakers? 

ge

[Russtafarian]

Regarding MC preamps, I have the Sony TA-P9000ES, which was ridiculously good for the money but discontinued way too soon to fill the demand for it.  But I'm not using it.

I found the easiest, most transparent way to play multichannel discs is with an Oppo player using the Oppo's remote volume control.  No MC preamp necessary.  I connect L & R to the stereo preamp and C, SL, SR, and LFE directly to the amps, set channel levels in the Oppo menu and control overall volume with the remote.  I'm listening to Porcupine Tree's the Incident DVD-A right now through the Oppo and it sounds fantastic.

Russ

[John Casler]

Hello again!

A couple weeks have already slipped by since my initial posting and I am overdue for providing an update.

I have burned in the speakers 24x7 for the past two weeks.  I used two sources: fm tuner (sometimes tuned to a station sometimes beween for 'white noise').  Usually i put a SACD on repeat, changing the disc each day.  Why? Why not?

The transformation over these two weeks is remarkable!  The midrange honk is gone, the hard high end is all but gone (very recording dependent).  Bass has found depth and solidity (no putty pinching yet).

In my acoustically treated room the overall sound is sensitive to speaker placement.  For the time being the back edge of the speaker bases are about 6 inches from the front wall and the speakers are toed in to cross in front of my listening post.  Woofers fire inward.  So far this provides the best overall presentation. Waveguides = on. 

Some interesting observations – I am hearing some remarkable recordings of remarkable music.  I kinda expected to be blown away by some of the well-regarded 'modern' recordings, ones without brickwalling and smiley EQs.  And some of these are fine.  But it was some of my LPs from the early to mid 70's and the hi-res dvd-a/sacd productions of recordings of this time period that blew me away:

Strongly recommended are King Crimson “Lizard” dvd/a, David Crosby “If Only i Could Remember My Name” dvd/a,

An Excellent Album and one I have spent a lot of time with.  I still have the Vinyl I picked up way back when.

It was even on HP's "best of" lists shortly after it came out.

 Graham Nash “Songs for Beginners” dvd/a, Pere Ubu “Modern Dance” dvd/a (no kidding folks), Roxy Music “Avalon” sacd, McDonald & Giles LP, Blondie “Plastic Letters” and “Parallel Lines” LPs, Elvis Costello “Trust” F-Beat LP, Lou Reed “Blue Mask” LP, Genesis "Lamb Lies Down" LP are ones that spring to mind.  And Frank Zappa's “Halloween” on dvd/a has some great examples of how good a guitar in the early 1970's could sound.  I look forward to exploring my musical library again this weekend.  I wish I had analog tape....

Strangely enough there are some REAL Audio GEMS from back then.

Thanks again for all of your suggestions and words of encouragement in the early goings of break in.  Much appreciated.  I will continue to adjust the mid panel and tweeter controls as outlined here, and of course speaker placement.  I may even try the woofers outward again.

Change is good.  Even if it doesn't yeild an improvement you get to learn what works and what doesn't.

One more question – I will be at some point in the not too distant future be looking for a multichannel preamp with  analog 5.1  in and out capability.  I don't need processing, that will be handled in the player.  I know of the Bryston sp2, Bel Canto Pre 6 and Paragon p7.  Does anyone here have experience with any of these with VMPS speakers? 

ge

All of the older BRYSTON PREPros will do a good job for you (SP 1.7 and SP2) and when the new SP3 comes out many "previously owned" units will be popping up all over.

I have a couple people also using the NuFORCE AVP-16 and AVP-17's for a similar purpose.

With everything in the HT world changing at such a fast pace, there are Theta, Lexicon, Bryston, Krell, Proceed, and any number of Premium Brand 6 channel preamps (5.1) that are available for great pricing.

They can also be used for BIAMPING and TRIAMPING preamps for VMPS customers who are using the Digital Input on their D-OXO and have 4-6 channels of amps that need UNITY Gain.

[PMAT]

Vertical position, whether your chair height or speaker tip-up is crucial for me. You can adjust the levels instead but the room interaction change is different. Room placement and height adjustment have been the best changes for me. I am at 11:30 and 12:00 on adjustment but I have modded RM-1's. Russtafarian's advice seemed great.

[G E]

Interesting you bring up vertical positioning.  This past weekend I removed a couple of cushions I used to build up my listening position height when I had my Infinity Kappas.  Recalling comments about 'lowering' listening position for optimal results, I removed them. This lowered my listening height by about 8 inches and really improved the listening experience.  I also moved the speakers forward about 2.5 feet from back wall, slightly toed in

But what really sent me to Nirvana was when my wife offered to let me try her Bryston integrated amp (st100?). Much fuller bass, creamy midrange and greater high end detail but without that element of hard edge that had remained with my previous electronics. It was a revelation.

Unfortunately she made me give it back the next day. So I may be looking for improved upstream electronics in the not too distant future!

[Hipper]

It might be worth you looking at this thread:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=22154.0

[John Casler]

It might be worth you looking at this thread:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=22154.0

HIPPER. . .good memory.  I was going to search that thread out too.

You saved me the trouble. 

[G E]

I recall seeing part of this thread before.  But the following was new to me:

"....Because you used to be on all fours.  I know that doesn't make sense, but here's what I mean.

Our ears developed for millions of years with the tops of out heads facing forward and our faces facing the ground.  Our keenest hearing is if we put our heads down...."

So our listening sessions should be conducted "doggie style"  This is a fun hobby isn't it? I mentioned this to my wife over breakfast coffee this morning and the look on her face was a Kodak moment.

ha ha!

[Napalm]

[...]But what really sent me to Nirvana was when my wife offered to let me try her Bryston integrated amp (st100?). Much fuller bass, creamy midrange and greater high end detail but without that element of hard edge that had remained with my previous electronics. It was a revelation. [...]

GE, there's a Bryston forum here too, don't be shy, visit us!

Nap.