[John Casler]

THE RM30 TALL BOY TWEAK

OK it has been a while since I posted a MONSTER Tweak, but I have a great one.

And I mean MONSTER!!!

Now this tweak is only for the RM30, but I suspect it will work on the older RM1 and RM2 models to a lesser degree.

In my room, on my system, with my listening geometry the improvement was as great as any single tweak (no make that read "any improvement, component, upgrade or tweak") I have used todate.  In fact I have spent thousands and not gotten as much improvement!!

I am not sure exactly why it works so well, and I can't guarantee it will have the "exact" improvement in your room, since my room is acoustically treated (to the n'th degree) and I also sit in a rather nearfield position which means I "will" hear differences more than someone who listens in a non treated room, farfield.

But anyhow here is the scoop.

Not sure what possessed me to do this, except not to long ago we had a thread about raising subs up off the ground.

So I had 4 identical and very sturdy wooden tables so I raised all my LARGER subs up to waist level.

Well the bass was even better than having them on the floor.  Now without a doubt, I lost a db or two, but all I needed to do, was dial them up a notch on the NHT X2 crossover I use to low pass them.

Bass detail and impact just another bit closer to the ideal.

So I look over in the corner and I have a pair of KEF 303's in all black, that I placed in the corners to maybe, kinda, reduce bass coming out of the corners.  

Knowing they really do about "next to nothing", I decided to pull them out.

"Son of a gun if they aren't about the size of the slot base on the RM30's", I thought to myself.

Plus they are all black and I'm always up for a little tweaking.

So curiosity got the best of me, and I wiggled the RM30's out of position, placed the KEF 303's down and then picked up the RM30s and placed them on top of the 303's.

The fit was quite good and ended up raising the RM30s about 7-8" higher than normal.

Well I wasn't expecting too much.

In fact, I expected the bass to drop off a bit, and since my ear level was now about the top 1/3 of the middle Neo-Panel, I thought for sure all the highs would be gone.

Well was I in for a BIG surprise.

It took a while for my jaw to get back up to normal height, from dropping on the floor.  

It was stunning.  All the images heightened and became larger.  The increase in depth was a side benefit that I didn't expect and can't explain.

The detail and resolution though were the big treats.  I could hear deeper into every Reference Cut on my Ref Disc and I was absolutely blown away by detail.  It was a whole new level of presence and detail.

After not being able to tear myself away until I had sampled every cut to see if I was imagining this, I sat down and posted B, that we needed to have a TALL BOY version of the RM30, for it was simply stunning.

Well in any event, that is the story.

And the RM30 Tall Boy is born.  I must warn you, I can't listen any other way now.

I have located some speaker stands that can be used for this purpose if anyone is interested.  

But first a couple caveats.

1) if you don't use a subwoofer, then you may experience a reduction of low bass, but upper and midbass impact seem improved.

2) If you sit more than 8 or 9 feet away from your speakers and have a live room, you might not hear as big a difference.

I would suggest you find a temporary way to elevate the speakers to see if it helps for your room, but if it is anything like mine, be prepared to be stunned.

Get all your old CD favorites out cause you're gonna wanna go through all of them again.

Now for the tweeter thing.

At first, as I said, I thought the highs would roll off a bit with the tweeter so high. But instead they got better.

Anyone know why?

Because you used to be on all fours.  I know that doesn't make sense, but here's what I mean.

Our ears developed for millions of years with the tops of out heads facing forward and our faces facing the ground.  Our keenest hearing is if we put our heads down.

If you are listening to your system and lean forward and put your head down, more than likely you be able to hear the "highs"a little bit better,  Try it and see.

Well by moving the tweeter above your head, the highs come in at an angle that is more similar to this.

Voila!! no loss, and actually even better highs.

So that is it.  Be aware that tilting won't do the same thing, cause I tried it.  It will help a bit, but the real deal is in the "elevation".

I have to say it "literally" takes the sound to another level.

Also if you do try it, and like the effect, and want some very nice stands that will elevate the speaker 7-8" contact me and I'll get some for you.

THE RM30 TALL BOY TWEAK

[ss397]

john the effect you observed has also been proposed in the mapleshade catalog. they propose moving your sitting position to the floor which essentially does the same thing and document the same improvements you do. it didn't have a very dramatic effect on my system but everyones results will surely vary. so you have some solid backup on this theory.

[lifewithmusic]

John -

Why not add an extra side woofer to the Tall Boy and have Big B experiment with putting the tweeter between the first and second upper mid panels, and instead of calling this the RM30 Tall Boy, call it the RM35 or the RM30.2 or something like that?

Just my 2 cents.

[John Casler]

Upon closer examination it appears that the improvement is caused by two elements.

1) The anatomical positioing of the head and ear relating to the tweeter.  That is the tweeter is now in the superior plane above the ear, but still has the vertical dispersion to produce the HF's.

2) This positions the ear to be able to hear information from "all" the neopanels, rather than the top one and maybe a portion of the middle one frem the normal listening.  This no doubt is why there seems to be such an increase in detail and information.

You might find that sitting on a very low chair (like a beanbag) might have a similar effect "without" reducing low bass at all.

I saw where Costco had a "bucket seat" chair that was quite low.

That could make a very interesting look for a "high perfromance" system.

Have your friends come over and "buckle them in".  

[John Casler]

john the effect you observed has also been proposed in the mapleshade catalog. they propose moving your sitting position to the floor which essentially does the same thing and document the same improvements you do. it didn't have a very dramatic effect on my system but everyones results will surely vary. so you have some solid backup on this theory.

Hi SS397,

Yeah, I would think that with speakers other than VMPS, that the effect would be limited to the head position with the tweeter, since most cone speakers have a large vertical dispersion.

But whatever it is, it was a great improvement for my rig.

[ctviggen]

John,

I think that's a benefit of the RM40s over the RM30s -- the RM40s have mids above ear level.  The detriments are increased cost and decreased wife acceptance factor.  I still haven't been able to play around with a highboy setup for my Largers.

[MaxCast]

Hey, just throw a couple 10" drivers in there and you'll have a RM40  

[John Casler]

Hey, just throw a couple 10" drivers in there and you'll have a RM40  

Right now I have a RM30 Tall Boy 4 XL (4 x LARGER)

[KJ]

It was stunning. All the images heightened and became larger. The increase in depth was a side benefit that I didn't expect and can't explain.

John had me perform some blind testing to confirm his results.  I sat each speaker on 7" of stacked laminate flooring.  I definitely noticed the heightened imaging and increase in depth.  The image variations make sense, but I'm a little lost on why the depth sounded different.

The detail and resolution though were the big treats. I could hear deeper into every Reference Cut on my Ref Disc and I was absolutely blown away by detail. It was a whole new level of presence and detail.

While I can't say I noticed any difference in detail, I don't listen nearfield like John does.  I also have the flat portion of the base attached to each speaker via the rails.  I believe John has the rails sitting directly on the raised cabinets.  Sometime when I have some free time to lift the RM30s up again, I'll move the sofa in closer to see if I notice a difference in detail.

Very interesting results.

-KJ

[jcoat007]

Our ears developed for millions of years with the tops of out heads facing forward and our faces facing the ground. Our keenest hearing is if we put our heads down.

Does it still work if you don't believe in evolution?

[eric the red]

Our ears developed for millions of years with the tops of out heads facing forward and our faces facing the ground. Our keenest hearing is if we put our heads down.

Does it still work if you don't believe in evolution?

What would Jesus hear?

[jcoat007]

Our ears developed for millions of years with the tops of out heads facing forward and our faces facing the ground. Our keenest hearing is if we put our heads down.

Does it still work if you don't believe in evolution?

What would Jesus hear?

                   

[woodsyi]

Our ears developed for millions of years with the tops of out heads facing forward and our faces facing the ground. Our keenest hearing is if we put our heads down.

Does it still work if you don't believe in evolution?

What would Jesus hear?

                   

Blasphemy!  

[jcoat007]

Our ears developed for millions of years with the tops of out heads facing forward and our faces facing the ground. Our keenest hearing is if we put our heads down.

Does it still work if you don't believe in evolution?

What would Jesus hear?

                   

Blasphemy!  

I think Jesus has a sense of humor too.  I know he is cracking up at how Darwin fooled so many people.  

I got this way off topic, so I'll shut up now.  

"And now back to our regularly scheduled programming,  'Jaw dropping tweaks for the RM30'."  But first a word from our sponsor....

[lkosova]

John,

Just read your Rm-30 post. I have to laugh since this is the main way I have listened to the Rm-30's for the last two years or so. I have them on my stage about 9 inches of the ground and yes the mid panel hit you right on and the detail and imaging improve. I have played with angling the tweater with a tilt of the speaker and there is slight improvment.....I have two seating area's and one is below the speaker and one is at the same level(do to a platform) and for two channel I like the speaker higher up......

Larry
www.automatedhomeandbusiness.com

[Andrikos]

I think Jesus has a sense of humor too.  I know he is cracking up at how Darwin fooled so many people.  

Yikes...    

[Scottdazzle]

John,

I just ran across this old thread and got excited about the prospect of raising my RM30's.  You said you had located some very nice stands for this purpose.  How about posting the info or sending me a pm? 

Thanks!

Scott

THE RM30 TALL BOY TWEAK


So curiosity got the best of me, and I wiggled the RM30's out of position, placed the KEF 303's down and then picked up the RM30s and placed them on top of the 303's.

The fit was quite good and ended up raising the RM30s about 7-8" higher than normal.

Well I wasn't expecting too much.

In fact, I expected the bass to drop off a bit, and since my ear level was now about the top 1/3 of the middle Neo-Panel, I thought for sure all the highs would be gone.

Well was I in for a BIG surprise.

It took a while for my jaw to get back up to normal height, from dropping on the floor.  

It was stunning.  All the images heightened and became larger.  The increase in depth was a side benefit that I didn't expect and can't explain.

The detail and resolution though were the big treats.  I could hear deeper into every Reference Cut on my Ref Disc and I was absolutely blown away by detail.  It was a whole new level of presence and detail.

After not being able to tear myself away until I had sampled every cut to see if I was imagining this, I sat down and posted B, that we needed to have a TALL BOY version of the RM30, for it was simply stunning.

Well in any event, that is the story.

And the RM30 Tall Boy is born.  I must warn you, I can't listen any other way now.

I have located some speaker stands that can be used for this purpose if anyone is interested.  

But first a couple caveats.

1) if you don't use a subwoofer, then you may experience a reduction of low bass, but upper and midbass impact seem improved.

2) If you sit more than 8 or 9 feet away from your speakers and have a live room, you might not hear as big a difference.

I would suggest you find a temporary way to elevate the speakers to see if it helps for your room, but if it is anything like mine, be prepared to be stunned.

Get all your old CD favorites out cause you're gonna wanna go through all of them again.

Now for the tweeter thing.

At first, as I said, I thought the highs would roll off a bit with the tweeter so high. But instead they got better.

Anyone know why?

Because you used to be on all fours.  I know that doesn't make sense, but here's what I mean.

Our ears developed for millions of years with the tops of out heads facing forward and our faces facing the ground.  Our keenest hearing is if we put our heads down.

If you are listening to your system and lean forward and put your head down, more than likely you be able to hear the "highs"a little bit better,  Try it and see.

Well by moving the tweeter above your head, the highs come in at an angle that is more similar to this.

Voila!! no loss, and actually even better highs.

So that is it.  Be aware that tilting won't do the same thing, cause I tried it.  It will help a bit, but the real deal is in the "elevation".

I have to say it "literally" takes the sound to another level.

Also if you do try it, and like the effect, and want some very nice stands that will elevate the speaker 7-8" contact me and I'll get some for you.

THE RM30 TALL BOY TWEAK

[John Casler]

John,

I just ran across this old thread and got excited about the prospect of raising my RM30's.  You said you had located some very nice stands for this purpose.  How about posting the info or sending me a pm? 

Thanks!

Scott

THE RM30 TALL BOY TWEAK


So curiosity got the best of me, and I wiggled the RM30's out of position, placed the KEF 303's down and then picked up the RM30s and placed them on top of the 303's.

The fit was quite good and ended up raising the RM30s about 7-8" higher than normal.

Well I wasn't expecting too much.

In fact, I expected the bass to drop off a bit, and since my ear level was now about the top 1/3 of the middle Neo-Panel, I thought for sure all the highs would be gone.

Well was I in for a BIG surprise.

It took a while for my jaw to get back up to normal height, from dropping on the floor.  

It was stunning.  All the images heightened and became larger.  The increase in depth was a side benefit that I didn't expect and can't explain.

The detail and resolution though were the big treats.  I could hear deeper into every Reference Cut on my Ref Disc and I was absolutely blown away by detail.  It was a whole new level of presence and detail.

After not being able to tear myself away until I had sampled every cut to see if I was imagining this, I sat down and posted B, that we needed to have a TALL BOY version of the RM30, for it was simply stunning.

Well in any event, that is the story.

And the RM30 Tall Boy is born.  I must warn you, I can't listen any other way now.

I have located some speaker stands that can be used for this purpose if anyone is interested.  

But first a couple caveats.

1) if you don't use a subwoofer, then you may experience a reduction of low bass, but upper and midbass impact seem improved.

2) If you sit more than 8 or 9 feet away from your speakers and have a live room, you might not hear as big a difference.

I would suggest you find a temporary way to elevate the speakers to see if it helps for your room, but if it is anything like mine, be prepared to be stunned.

Get all your old CD favorites out cause you're gonna wanna go through all of them again.

Now for the tweeter thing.

At first, as I said, I thought the highs would roll off a bit with the tweeter so high. But instead they got better.

Anyone know why?

Because you used to be on all fours.  I know that doesn't make sense, but here's what I mean.

Our ears developed for millions of years with the tops of out heads facing forward and our faces facing the ground.  Our keenest hearing is if we put our heads down.

If you are listening to your system and lean forward and put your head down, more than likely you be able to hear the "highs"a little bit better,  Try it and see.

Well by moving the tweeter above your head, the highs come in at an angle that is more similar to this.

Voila!! no loss, and actually even better highs.

So that is it.  Be aware that tilting won't do the same thing, cause I tried it.  It will help a bit, but the real deal is in the "elevation".

I have to say it "literally" takes the sound to another level.

Also if you do try it, and like the effect, and want some very nice stands that will elevate the speaker 7-8" contact me and I'll get some for you.

THE RM30 TALL BOY TWEAK

Hi Scott,

The bad news is those stands have been discontinued

Glad you dug up that tweak and I assume you have tried it??

I am not really sure why it worked so well for me since it would seem to move the FST tweeter too high, but It was NOT deficient in the High End.  In fact, that is what it sweetened and clarified the most.

Obviously it will only work to the extent that the height increase relates to your seated height.  That is if you are tall in a tall chair then you might have to go a couple inches higher, etc, etc.

I will be using a pair of "no longer functional" KEF's that fit the bottom of the RM30s perfectly.  They are all black and I face the drivers toward the floor so the woofs don't create passive bass radiation.

I think with a little creativity you could come up with a few ways to do it, even cement blocks painted Black would suffice.

I might also imagine a trip to IKEA would yield any number of wooden boxes that could work well or be modded close enough.



I actually just got a pair of RM30's as a "trade up" program to RM v60's for a local client (these RM30s are for local sale by the way) and now that you reminded me I will raise these too, even thought they are currently filling the "surround" duties in my HT.

How lucky am I? 

My HT has both an RM30 and LRC for Center, a Pair of RM40jr's (dibble) with SR71 and OXO for Mains, Pair of RM30's for Surrounds, and 4 LARGER Subs for LFE

With a 120" screen I am in HT Heaven for screening films and watching sports.

Yes, now reminded,  I will be "boosting" the altitude of my RM30's later today.  Thanks for reminding me.

[BobM]

Mapleshade was mentioned above for having recommended sitting below the tweeter. I had some friends (yes, I do have a few) who were devout Mapleshade addicts. They had all the ribbon interconnects and speaker cables and one actually bought the Mapleshade modded Gallo speakers (you know, those stacked eyeballs) and a Mapleshade amp.

Well guess what, they also had these low to the floor loungechair-like seats that sat you practically on the floor. Damn hard to get up, especially to get another beer  but the sound was pretty incredible. Don't knock it until you try it yourself. And sitting on the floor for an experiment is probably a whole lot easier than trying to lift your big heavy speakers on top of something else.

Enjoy,
Bob

[Scottdazzle]

Thanks anyway John.  I'm going to improvise just to try it out.  I have noticed that the system sounds better when I'm slouched down in my seat -- maybe this has something to do with Glenmorangie Quinta Ruban!