[fplanner2000]

Gavin - happy to share this info with you if you send me an e-mail.  I don't think it's appropriate for the general discussion.

Jack - I appreciate your comment, but the negative comments were not only coming from the "competition" as you put it.  I've been around long enough that I can pretty easily tell the difference between competitive comments and facts.  Also, most intelligent manufacturers know better than to slam a competitor.  I tried to avoid the fools, but did manage to meet a few well known dealers of other products that confirmed their reputations as first class jerks, as well as a manufacturer of a popular speaker line that somehow managed to sink to a new low.  Sorry to digress - my point again is that the comments were consistently negative, and at least as far as my speakers and situation are concerned, pretty spot on. 

Obviously, Albert didn't do himself any favors by not attending CES, regardless of whether or not he had any new products to sell. As a current VSA owner, I feel pretty let down from a support standpoint.  I have the expectation that the makers of my equipment should be at these events, if for no other reason than to see existing owners and reassure them of continued support.  Albert was the only manufacturer of my gear costing over $10K who was not at CES, and didn't even have an explanation.  Maybe he doesn't feel he owes us one?  I am definitely starting to look at other speaker manufacturers.  I refuse to be taken for granted or looked at as just a profit center to be contacted when there is something new to sell me.  Its distasteful, insulting and disrespectful.  Well, I WAS in a good mood when I STARTED this response......

[jab]

FPlanner2000,, since you seem very distressed over the absence of VSA at CES, why not pick up the phone and speak to Albert about your concerns?  As you know,, he's the most approachable gentleman you'll ever come across.. I've heard the number of mfg's attending CES this year was down significantly.. Seems the trend esp when the economy has forced "consumers" who regularly attend CES to stay home.  I'll tell you why I've avoided CES for the last two years,, b/c its less costly to attend the RMAF... The lodging, airfare, restaurant charges, are a fraction of the cost compared to being in Lost Wages...  No traffic congestion, long lines, etc.,,, a pure joy to be in Denver in Oct(except for the occasional snow flurries). 

I'm guessing the competition IS really ticked off at VSA.  Just recently, VSA began advertising in the rags (Stereophile-The Unifield 3's) after years and years of getting barely a mention,, a sentence,, in the majors from "show reports",, and,, the number of reviews are up and very positive (unifield 3's and VR5's)!  The web magazines have also been favorable to VSA incl Stereo Times, Positive Feedback, Enjoy the Music, Dagogo, Stereomojo, etc.  I'm sure the increased VSA exposure has hurt some of the big boys.
 
VSA offers support every business day thru-out the year.  The absence of VSA at a single audio show(arguably the biggest but not the best IMHO) should not be construed as a lack of customer support of their products. 

You've called Albert out,,, now, call him up... 

Jack

[fplanner2000]

Jack-

I stand by every word I said. 

I've ALREADY talked to Albert about my issues several times both in person and over the phone and have gotten absolutely NOWHERE.  I really didn't want to get into it on this forum.  Suffice to say he really didn't want to be bothered unless I was interested in buying new speakers.  I tried to talk to him about upgrading crossovers, wiring, capacitors or anything else that would upgrade my $70K list speakers to some of his newer technology.  Instead, he said it would cost me $25K plus expenses and he would come out for a day and tune my speakers to my room (which is NOT what I asked for, BTW).  As far as doing anything else, he said his time was just "too valuable" for him to be bothered doing anything else to help me.  That is, of course, unless I wanted to buy a new pair of speakers!!!

There is more, but I think you get the point.  So when I hear negative comments about how people have been treated before by Albert and various other things, I can't help but reflect on my latest problem with Albert and empathize.  I know Albert is a nice enough guy - he and Manny have actually been to my house, eaten my burgers and drank my beer.  I think he sometimes exercises bad judgement, as perhaps in this case.  I feel abandoned and this was just exacerbated by the unexpected absence of VSA from CES.

Jack, I do appreciate your input and I know it was made with the best of intentions.  And BTW, I live in Denver and have been to every RMAF.  Having now been to my first CES, I totally agree with you that the Rocky is better.  More relaxed, less hype, etc., etc., etc.  There was a greater selection of vendors at CES and I went to see the ones that either weren't at RMAF or hadn't brought what I wanted to listen to.  From that standpoint, CES was a definite success for me, as I met some new vendors and heard some great equipment.

[JackD201]

I could answer for Albert but I think it best if he answer himself.

Anyway, I hope you guys can work it out fplanner. It would be a shame if your relationship can't be mended. From your past posts I was under the impression that you were very happy with the way your system was performing especially with the new APL DAC (I'm still drooling), bass management issue fixes and the addition of another 300.1 at least happy enough not to be bummed out by comments from strangers whose experience with your system is a peak at cellphone pics and no listening.

Just so you don't feel bad. $25,000 is the one time VSR developmental rate for designs. I once got quoted the same amount plus parts and labor for a client looking for a 5 Anniversary with DB-99 SE specs. If I could have found more folks interested in that particular special model, the $25,000 could have been distributed between the units. So if you, Violetmachan and Corr along with some others can work something out........ aa

[fplanner2000]

Thanks for the feedback Jack. 

My front end really is incredible, at least to my ears, at this point - I actually heard nothing at any price that approached it at CES for Redbook playback.  I also didn't hear any amps that bested my VACs.  The only rooms that I thought sounded better than mine at CES were due to more resolving, more efficient, more responsive and better imaging speakers.  There were maybe 5 rooms out of about 60 that I visited like this. 

I have the distinct feeling that the rest of my system is basically "carrying" my speakers.  That is probably due to a combination of the speakers and preamp.  I decided therefore to upgrade my VAC preamp to the best they make, which is world-class, and it will be here in a week or so.  Hopefully it will improve my low volume level performance.  Kevin at VAC seems to think it will - we'll see.  The part of this that bothers me is that my existing preamp is just as good as what was in the other 5 rooms, yet I am forced to upgrade it along with everything else TO MAKE UP FOR THE DEFICIENCIES OF THE SPEAKERS!!!  THAT IS NOT HOW IT SHOULD BE.  R U LISTENING ALBERT?????

Seems like we 7SE owners are just adrift on an island as far as VSA is concerned.  Just because Albert doesn't feel he can profitably make these any longer should not mean we should be S.O.L. about getting improvements made to what we have.  I know Albert can extrapolate from current designs to meaningfully upgrade the 7s if he really wanted to.  Hell, he can buy back the 7's Frank is selling here for less than it cost Albert to make them, (or even trade Frank for them) and use these to develop the improvements!!  Albert can then sell the improved pair for a profit and we all WIN!!!  AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO SEES THIS??

[Holli82]

Thanks for the feedback Jack. 

My front end really is incredible, at least to my ears, at this point - I actually heard nothing at any price that approached it at CES for Redbook playback.  I also didn't hear any amps that bested my VACs.  The only rooms that I thought sounded better than mine at CES were due to more resolving, more efficient, more responsive and better imaging speakers.  There were maybe 5 rooms out of about 60 that I visited like this. 

I have the distinct feeling that the rest of my system is basically "carrying" my speakers.  That is probably due to a combination of the speakers and preamp.  I decided therefore to upgrade my VAC preamp to the best they make, which is world-class, and it will be here in a week or so.  Hopefully it will improve my low volume level performance.  Kevin at VAC seems to think it will - we'll see.  The part of this that bothers me is that my existing preamp is just as good as what was in the other 5 rooms, yet I am forced to upgrade it along with everything else TO MAKE UP FOR THE DEFICIENCIES OF THE SPEAKERS!!!  THAT IS NOT HOW IT SHOULD BE.  R U LISTENING ALBERT?????

Seems like we 7SE owners are just adrift on an island as far as VSA is concerned.  Just because Albert doesn't feel he can profitably make these any longer should not mean we should be S.O.L. about getting improvements made to what we have.  I know Albert can extrapolate from current designs to meaningfully upgrade the 7s if he really wanted to.  Hell, he can buy back the 7's Frank is selling here for less than it cost Albert to make them, (or even trade Frank for them) and use these to develop the improvements!!  Albert can then sell the improved pair for a profit and we all WIN!!!  AM I THE ONLY ONE WHO SEES THIS??

The wait for VAC equipment is only a week......I waited months for my amp.  Must be a recession.

fplanner sounds like some new speakers are in your future.  Hopefully you will be able to move your VR7's without too much difficulty.

[JackD201]

fplanner,

In what areas are the 7s deficient in your room? Just curious about what areas of performance you're looking at bumping up. I'd just like a clearer appreciation of the context of your situation. On paper, your system should be a knock out as it is.

Jack D.

[fplanner2000]

Holli82-

Please don't misunderstand... the wait for VAC equipment is a whole lot longer than a week.  I bought the CES demo.

There is no way I would try to sell my VR7's in this environment.  Besides, if we can get Albert to upgrade them, it becomes a non-issue.  Additionally, I'll be interested to hear the effect of the new preamp on the system.  It may pacify me for a while, but I can't help thinking if I also had a world-class pair of speakers how my system would sound....First problem I see is that I would never leave the house (and no, I don't work from home, nor is it an option)...

[fplanner2000]

Jack-

Mainly, Inner detail at lower and low-medium volume levels is missing and the sound stage collapses front to back and left to right.  Imaging also suffers  At higher levels, still missing some of the inner detail, but its not as noticeable, as the soundstage opens up..  At the level of the rest of my gear, this shouldn't be happening.  My guess is that the new 5-Annies don't have that problem (nor the u-3s), hence my desire for Albert to work some magic with my existing speakers.  I'm not an engineer, but I would guess better crossovers, drivers and wiring would go a long way towards fixing this.  Listening at CES confirmed these deficiencies and helped me pinpoint them.

[steve_sf]

fplanner2000, it's not as simple as throwing in better crossovers, drivers and wiring. That's not how top speakers are made. Top speakers are painstakingly designed as a complete system, with every last detail taken into consideration. In order to deliver the solution you want Albert would have to redesign your speakers, and neither he nor anybody else in the business can afford to do that on a per-customer basis.

[JackD201]

Jack-

Mainly, Inner detail at lower and low-medium volume levels is missing and the sound stage collapses front to back and left to right.  Imaging also suffers  At higher levels, still missing some of the inner detail, but its not as noticeable, as the soundstage opens up..  At the level of the rest of my gear, this shouldn't be happening.  My guess is that the new 5-Annies don't have that problem (nor the u-3s), hence my desire for Albert to work some magic with my existing speakers.  I'm not an engineer, but I would guess better crossovers, drivers and wiring would go a long way towards fixing this.  Listening at CES confirmed these deficiencies and helped me pinpoint them.

Okay, I see your point. All the other models have been upgraded significantly the 4SR alone has gone through 2 updates, the 5 one and the 9s one also. The 5SE which came out just a few months after your 7s had a little tweak that made them really open up in the micro realm. It would cost you about $2,400 and some elbow grease and maybe some labor for a really good technician to solder point to point. This would be to replace the Hovland caps on the 7's super tweeters and ring radiators with the V-Cap Teflon caps found on the 5SEs and the Annies. It's a piece for piece swap just use the exact cap values. My 9s were special ordered to have Vs on all tweeters including the rear ambience ones and the difference between them and what used to be the standard 9s (I believe Vs are now standard) was not subtle in the exact areas that are of concern to you. Hovland was tops at the time but then came the premium Mundorfs and V-Caps along with the Duelunds and new Jensen flats.

Unfortunately this isn't cheap, will take a loooooong time to break in and will void your warranty. As always your mileage may also vary so there is an element of risk here.

Two last questions, first since you are bi-amping have you tried using the 8ohm taps for the MT modules and the 4ohm  taps for the bass modules? Doing so can reduce a haze caused by a slight overhang in the lower midrange that tends to mask inner detail higher up in the aerogel mids. Worth a try and best of all free.

Second may I know what cables you are using? Several cables I've tried caused the same problems by making the sound thick and colored.

Anyhow, good luck

Jack D.

[es347]

Fplanner,

Not trying to stir the pot here but may I quote you from an earlier post:

The 5's lack the servo-bass driver of the 9's and also lack the double 11" bass drivers and supertweeter of the 7s.  You obviously have never actually ever compared these 3 speakers in the same or similar systems, or you wouldn't have made your comments.  There  is NO WAY AT ALL THE ANNIES ARE IN THE SAME LEAGUE AS THE 7'S - not even close.  To suggest otherwise is simply incorrect.

I am perplexed how you have jumped off the VR7 bandwagon so quickly.  The rooms at CES are never a particularly good acoustic environment to audition gear and certainly not somewhere to critically listen.  That coupled with how short our sonic memories tend to be and how they can be fool you, it seems you may be knee jerking a bit.  I have listened to several exotic speakers in a decent room driven by the same electronics I have and my VR5 Anniversaries have won out every time, again my sonic memory being what it is.  I would be surprised if even the Magico M5s or the new Q5s would appreciably outperform what you have.  I hope you and Albert can find an upgrade path for your 7s that makes sense.  Good luck.

[fplanner2000]

Jack D - 
You have hit the nail on the head, or so it seems.  I knew there had to be a way to make this shortcoming better.  Wonder if Albert will support doing such an upgrade, or for that matter why he never mentioned this to me?  Thank you very much.  I haven't tried the bi-wire configuration you mention because my wiring doesn't allow for that - each speaker cable only has 2 wires at the amp end and 4 at the speaker end.  They are Synergistic Research Apex Tesla-charged active cables.  The rest of the system is likewise SR and I love my cables. AGAIN, THANK YOU.  NOW IF ONLY ALBERT IS LISTENING.....

Gavin-
I have not fallen off any "bandwagon".  I will take the 7's over the 5's or 9's any day of the week.  I took along to CES a very revealing Gold 24-bit very well-recorded CD with a good mix of  songs on it that I am very familiar with.  I've played these tracks in over 20 rooms at CES from Thurs to Sunday and multiple times in about 10 rooms.  FYI - the one I used the most is a 7 minute rendition of a Lee Rittenour version of "Papa was a Rolling Stone" that contains female vocals, guitar, piano, bass, drums, brass, wide and deep soundstage, etc and is very revealing of a system's strengths and weaknesses.  As a matter of fact, I allowed 6 of the rooms to rip the CD to their computers because they too wanted the disc.  I outlined the issues I have with the 7's above, and Jack D graciously came up with what I think will go a long way towards correcting the 7's shortcomings as I perceive them.  Now its just a matter of getting Albert on board with this.

As far as Magicos are concerned, I would not put them into my system if you paid me.  I haven't heard them and have no desire to do so. (Happy to explain why via e-mail).  Marten Design Coltrane Momentos, on the other hand, are a different story......Incredible speaker...

[es347]

FP,

Sorry if my post offended you.  It was not intended to do so.  The Magico company and its owner are enough to dissuade me from owning anything they offer.  A dealer friend who reps them has told me several unflattering stories that are in stark contrast to VSA and its owner.  Just for the record, again not to offend, I wouldn't trade my VR5s for the VR7s either...touche. 

BTW, does the use of bold type indicate a raised voice?  I'm thinking it does. 

[fplanner2000]

Gavin - no offense taken.  I feel the same way about Magico, whose owner reached a new low for me at CES - unbelievable.  As far as the bold type, I know Albert's eyes aren't what they once were, so the hope is that MAYBE THE BOLD TYPE WILL CATCH HIS EYE AND HE WILL RESPOND!!

Not meaning to shout, but this being ignored/blown off sure gets frustrating when you've spent a bunch of money......

[JackD201]

Aaah okay your 300.1s are strapped as monoblocks. I thought you were bi-amping. My brother did the same with his 300.1s. They run the MTs of his 9s (soon to be 11s) and his bass is run with VTL Sigfrieds.

Which tap then 8 or 4? You'll get more speed and articulation at 4 but lose some perceived weight and warmth. You can make up a little of it by toeing out and spacing them a few inches farther apart and closer to the front wall.

Also where did you buy your 7's? If Albert signs off on a cap swap that would qualify as a field upgrade that can be done by a certified dealer's technician. If you were my client I'm sure I could get permission to poke around and do it for you since we are certified for the simpler field upgrades (aka do not need work on the baffles) like SR Mk1 to Mk2 which facilitated swapping out the midrange and the XO kit. Problem is there is no XO kit for the 7s. This could come in either as a complete XO with upgraded tweeter caps in it's simplest form or the big doozie which would take the man countless hours of development time, a redesign of the XO w/ passive servo control specifically for all 12 of the 7's existing drivers. The latter would cost you that 25gs ++. Albert's mapped out the 7's midrange but that's about it. The current models, the 5s, 9s and 11s share the same 9.5 inch magnesiums and the 9s and 11s the same 5 inch ribbons so they're mapped. You're other drivers are/were shared with the DB-99 (woofers and supertweeter of the optional module) also a discontinued model. These were never mapped. Frankly I wish both could be brought back.

As you already know being a VSA vet is that the AIR/GAIN system is the heart of the VR line. These aren't the textbook XOs found in other speakers. This is where our dough goes because even if someone else could figure out how AVS actually does all this, they can't because it's patented. From that perspective the development costs suddenly don't sound too excessive.

If you have a certified dealer to just do a simple cap upgrade which requires no redesign whatsoever, I'm sure VSA will allow your warranty to continue. I wouldn't blame them however if they voided it if a stranger went poking around inside. I think it's doable because I believe the XOs are not potted like those of the VR-1s, 2s adn 4jrs. Also the cost of sending your 7s from Colorado to California just for caps looks pretty uneconomical aside from being a whole lot of work even if you had your original crates still. It would be cheaper to ask if you could fly a VSA tech and his tools in, put him up for a night and pay him for his time (which would have to be a weekend or holiday rate because they can't disrupt production). That's an idea!

If you're lucky enough to get Damon himself here's a tip. He like asian food.

[fplanner2000]

Jack D. -
I am using the 8 ohm taps and will probably keep it that way.
I bought my speakers directly from Albert.  If I'm following what you suggested, he would have to do the redesign for the 6 VR7 speakers then just duplicate it.  No way I would send these speakers anywhere - I've thought about the other alternative, but with no info forthcoming from Albert as to what could actually be done, I just dropped it.

I am now sufficiently motivated to have another conversation with Albert.  If its not too much trouble, I would appreciate it if you could talk to Albert about this first to see if he thinks it would be a big enough improvement to warrant further discussion.  Who knows, maybe Albert can come up with a few other ideas that might help as well, now that it appears there really is a way to improve these speakers.  I have a definite aversion to being "gouged", especially for something that probably should have been a recognized upgrade path for these speakers, so cost effectiveness is also an issue here.

Seigfrieds for the bass of 9's?  Talk about overkill ... those drivers are smaller than mine!!  Do the speakers leave the ground?  I'm surprised the cones don't blow across the room!!!  Talking to Eva in the VTL room at CES, she explained they could only run the Seigrieds after show hours because they sucked too much juice to run all their other show equipment at the same time without blowing a fuse!!

My first step is to put the new VAC preamp into the system and see where things are.  That's probably a week or 2 from now.  In the meantime, anything that you could do to prod Albert on my issues would be definitely appreciated, as its questionable whether he will have read my comments herein.  Thanks again Jack - you sound like a great dealer!

[JackD201]

Sure thing FP I'll send him an e-mail about your conundrum. Looks like you two had a misunderstanding of sorts from what I gathered. I'll try to clear it up.

Overkill indeed. That's exactly what I said then again the amps really are meant for the 11s that have been in our warehouse for months now. It was fun though having Albert, Kevin and Luke working the numbers out to get their babies singing together.

The 9s have smaller drivers but unlike the 7s they are in an acoustic suspension enclosure not Quasi-TL like all other VRs. That makes them quicker and more responsive by nature but alas needs more juice....that's where the 15" diamonds entered the picture. Also the room being constructed for the 11s is huge almost 8 meters wide 11 meters deep and 4 meters in height. I said we should just put a slab on the Sigfrieds, hang a cross, call a priest and we could all have mass there every Sunday. 

[Delacroix]

Just a friendly moderator's note to remind you all that this is an owner's circle, it is not the manufacturer's circle hence Albert or Damon are not necessarily reading all our activity and cannot be expected to reply to every question here. As always, it's best to contact any company directly with questions about their products if you want to ensure the question gets to the people that matter. I was going to prod Albert on this discussion but since Jack has a more direct route, I'll let him proceed as mentioned. In my experience, Albert takes customer questions seriously but like some of you, I am not entirely clear what is expected of VSA in this situation, here's hoping everyone gets peace and closure. FP, you have a wonderful system, let us know how that new VAC impacts your enjoyment.

Best

[Albert Von Schweikert]

Does anybody know why VSA was absent from CES this year? Cause no introduction of new models is not a reason for not participating in one of the three largest hi fi shows in the world !!!!

From Albert Von Schweikert :
Over the course of the year, we heard from more and more of our dealers and distributors that they would not be attending CES this year.  This reduction in attendance, along with word that other major manufacturers were not attending, led us to decide that participating in CES this year was not a good investment of our time.

Our advertisements in Stereophile and The Absolute Sound, along with our 300+ international dealers, has kept us busy and our production capacity is pretty close to being maxed out.  Over the past few months, we have signed several large international distributors for Scandinavia, Singapore, and Thailand.  Our new line of UniField Series speakers has led to amazing growth in countries with audiophiles looking for a small-room speaker that can play like a big floor stander.  In fact, the new UniField line has been so popular that we are expanding our production capacity.  If you have read the latest reviews on the UniField 3 in TAS and the Stereo Times, you can understand why this new line is amazingly popular and has fantastic sales growth.

We are working very hard to finalize marketing elements (photos,web pages, etc.) for the new UniField Models 1 and 2, as well as our new Master-Built line of aerospace-derived cables. Since we are extremely busy with the website photography and advertising, we felt that we had more to gain by finishing these projects than attending CES. If you have seen the CES Guide Book, you might have noticed that many of the popular brands of speakers didn't bother attending CES, either.

We greatly appreciate your interest in what we do here at VSA, so I'm pleased that we are still creating attention and interest for our company.  Thanks for your support, and as always, Happy Listening!