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PhilNYC · « **Reply #80 on:** 6 Jan 2010, 07:36 pm »

Quote from: jmc207 on 6 Jan 2010, 06:35 pm

I still liked the movie but as Phil mentioned the similarities are a bit much. Here's a rewritten Pocahontas script for perusal.

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/7269/originalvq.jpg

If that link quits working, check my Gallery.

launche · « **Reply #81 on:** 6 Jan 2010, 08:35 pm »

Wait a minute I see what you guys are talking about now, sorry but I thought this to be deliberate and just a twist on the old theme. Kind of a retelling just with newer technology. I honestly thought you all were talking about something more detailed screenplay wise. I figure Cameron is smart enough to know we've seen this one before too. Yes, this is the same theme or storyline as countless movies which I believe most are just lifted from the founding of the new world and such. Frankly most action, sci-fi, westerns, war, buddy, horror, romance etc... movies are just retreads. We've seen boy meets girls, boy falls for girl, girls resists boy, boy chases girl, boy gets girl a million times over but we keep falling for it. As I've said there's not much new left to be done unless you want to really challenge people and that would make most people's brains hurt. I seriously thought most people accepted the basic premise of the film as a given retelling of the old story. I looked past that in the first 15 minutes and went to find more substance. We can go on and on about what this running theme means and why we keep seeing it over and over again. But I obviously see where if one did not come to terms with this basic premise it would be a sour note for them.

ricmon · « **Reply #82 on:** 6 Jan 2010, 08:48 pm »

Quote from: nathanm on 22 Dec 2009, 10:59 pm

I would not be at all surprised if Kevin's cynical synopsis was entirely accurate! Heh!

“Whether Avatar is racist is a matter for debate. Regardless of where you come down on that question, it’s undeniable that the film – like alien apartheid flick District 9, released earlier this year – is emphatically a fantasy about race. Specifically, it’s a fantasy about race told from the point of view of white people. Avatar and scifi films like it give us the opportunity to answer the question: What do white people fantasize about when they fantasize about racial identity?”

you can read more here

http://www.feastoffun.com/topics/people/2009/12/19/more-about-avatar-and-race/

Ric

PhilNYC · « **Reply #83 on:** 6 Jan 2010, 09:36 pm »

Quote from: launche on 6 Jan 2010, 08:35 pm

Wait a minute I see what you guys are talking about now, sorry but I thought this to be deliberate and just a twist on the old theme. Kind of a retelling just with newer technology. I honestly thought you all were talking about something more detailed screenplay wise. I figure Cameron is smart enough to know we've seen this one before too. Yes, this is the same theme or storyline as countless movies which I believe most are just lifted from the founding of the new world and such. Frankly most action, sci-fi, westerns, war, buddy, horror, romance etc... movies are just retreads. We've seen boy meets girls, boy falls for girl, girls resists boy, boy chases girl, boy gets girl a million times over but we keep falling for it. As I've said there's not much new left to be done unless you want to really challenge people and that would make most people's brains hurt. I seriously thought most people accepted the basic premise of the film as a given retelling of the old story. I looked past that in the first 15 minutes and went to find more substance. We can go on and on about what this running theme means and why we keep seeing it over and over again. But I obviously see where if one did not come to terms with this basic premise it would be a sour note for them.

But it was a lot more than the basic premise...I just didn't want to get into too many specifics with a ton of spoilers in this thread. But there are ways to tell a story with the same basic premise (eg. boy meets girl, etc) without re-using *so many* basic elements from other stories....maybe it's because Pocahontas and Tarzan were my daughter's favorite movies and it is burned into my brain big-time after watching it dozens of times, but it even came down to thinking that I could anticipate the dialog in Avatar based on what was in Pocahontas and Tarzan...

(btw - Mother Willow from Pocahontas was a tree, just so you know it wasn't just figurative...)

reddmadder · « **Reply #84 on:** 6 Jan 2010, 11:42 pm »

IMHO the film is undeniably a major achievement, regardless of the narrative "similarities" between the aforementioned films. I personally don't mind if a director and writer rework elements from classic stories and do it successfully which Avatar is a perfect example.
I mean look at the remake of Pocahontas,"The New World" by Terrance Mallick...dreadful.
If you really want to hammer Cameron on using proven thematic elements then you have to acknowledge the lawsuit that sci-fi writer Harlan Ellison was going to file against Cameron and the studio for similarities between one of his stories and "The Terminator"
which was eventually settled out of court.
Now I think it's safe to say that the general consensus is that Cameron's Terminator" is widely considered a (minor) sci-fi classic.So it all boils down to the telling of the tale.

reddmadder · « **Reply #85 on:** 7 Jan 2010, 12:00 am »

Another example that comes to mind is the classic sci-fi film "Forbidden Planet"
loosely based on Shakespeare's "The Tempest"
I think it's a relevant comparision since "Forbidden Planet" was considered ground breaking in it's day for it's special effects and engaging narrative.

Bigfish · « **Reply #86 on:** 7 Jan 2010, 01:08 am »

I find the debate about Cameron reusing an old theme to be humorous and I am quite certain Mr. Cameron is laughing on his way to the bank! It has to be noted that this movie has grossed over 1 billion in 3 weeks and has maintained it grip as the #1 watched movie for 3 weeks. I was highly entertained by this movie and like many folks I have talked with, saw it twice. You can debate whether or not he should have developed a unique script but Cameron has clearly accomplished his objective. He made a movie that is very successfully drawing folks, in droves, to see his movie and most leave the theater and want to see it again. I say Mr. Cameron - job well done!

Ken

zybar · « **Reply #87 on:** 7 Jan 2010, 01:09 am »

Quote from: Bigfish on 7 Jan 2010, 01:08 am

I find the debate about Cameron reusing an old theme to be humorous and I am quite certain Mr. Cameron is laughing on his way to the bank! It has to be noted that this movie has grossed over 1 billion in 3 weeks and has maintained it grip as the #1 watched movie for 3 weeks. I was highly entertained by this movie and like many folks I have talked with, saw it twice. You can debate whether or not he should have developed a unique script but Cameron has clearly accomplished his objective. He made a movie that is very successfully drawing folks, in droves, to see his movie and most leave the theater and want to see it again. I say Mr. Cameron - job well done!

Ken

I hope to see it very soon for the second time. This time at the IMAX!

George

Lyndon · « **Reply #88 on:** 7 Jan 2010, 01:14 am »

You got it, George.
I've got my ticket for Saturday's matinee...
Imax
3-D
Best sound system theater in Utah.
Hotcha! aa
Lyndon

reddmadder · « **Reply #89 on:** 7 Jan 2010, 01:56 am »

He's laughing and thinking about his plans to do a remake of "Fantastic Voyage" as his next project.

PhilNYC · « **Reply #90 on:** 7 Jan 2010, 02:37 am »

Quote from: Bigfish on 7 Jan 2010, 01:08 am

I find the debate about Cameron reusing an old theme to be humorous and I am quite certain Mr. Cameron is laughing on his way to the bank! It has to be noted that this movie has grossed over 1 billion in 3 weeks and has maintained it grip as the #1 watched movie for 3 weeks. I was highly entertained by this movie and like many folks I have talked with, saw it twice. You can debate whether or not he should have developed a unique script but Cameron has clearly accomplished his objective. He made a movie that is very successfully drawing folks, in droves, to see his movie and most leave the theater and want to see it again. I say Mr. Cameron - job well done!

Ken

I guess the most similar analogy would be watching West Side Story after having read/seen Romeo & Juliet a hundred times. West Side Story is, without a doubt, an excellent movie/musical...but for those who are intimately familiar with Romeo & Juliet, West Side Story might feel a bit too derivative. As said, I enjoyed the film, but was just distracted by the similarities to a couple of kids movies....

That said, I don't know if I would use the fact that it has grossed a ton of money to measure it's quality....

Bigfish · « **Reply #91 on:** 7 Jan 2010, 02:54 am »

Quote

That said, I don't know if I would use the fact that it has grossed a ton of money to measure it's quality....

I think if you read my post I did not judge the quality of the movie. I stated you cannot ignore the fact it has grossed over 1 billion in 3 weeks and is the number 1 movie based on attendance for the 3 weeks since it was released. My point is that this movie is a blockbuster because it entertains, pure and simple! Most of us don't care about the reuse of the theme because it is so well done. You watch this movie and you are amazed from start to finish because you have never seen visual stimulation in a movie like this before! The majority of us that have seen this movie could care less about the reuse of tried and true story.

Ken

Tyson · « **Reply #92 on:** 7 Jan 2010, 03:10 am »

It's actually quite clever - if you are spending 400m on making it, best to stick with a "tried and true" crowd pleasing story.

satfrat · « **Reply #93 on:** 7 Jan 2010, 03:16 am »

Quote from: Tyson on 7 Jan 2010, 03:10 am

It's actually quite clever - if you are spending 400m on making it, best to stick with a "tried and true" crowd pleasing story.

Yep, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. But it never hurts to enhance it.

BobM · « **Reply #94 on:** 8 Jan 2010, 09:02 pm »

Or perhaps you geeks might better interpret it as:

Avatar = (Pocahontas * (Ferngully + Smurf CGI)) / (Dances With Wolves % (Alien - HR Giger + Roger Dean))

reddmadder · « **Reply #95 on:** 8 Jan 2010, 09:47 pm »

Well Kudos to Cameron for successfully taking a classic narrative and doing a update that will revolutionize movies for years!!!

PhilNYC · « **Reply #96 on:** 8 Jan 2010, 10:07 pm »

Was thinking about this more. Before seeing this movie, I purposely tried to avoid reading anything about it...reviews, making-of shows, etc. And as such, I really didn't know it was supposed to be a re-telling of "The New World" (ie. Pocahontas, etc). Maybe if I knew that premise before seeing it, I would not have been as distracted by it...with other "update/remake"-type films like West Side Story, The Departed, Seven Samurai, I've never had this kind of reaction because I went into those movies knowing that they were based on someone else's story.

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #97 on:** 8 Jan 2010, 10:16 pm »

It's CGI: it's like a bad accident where everyone wants to see what's going on.

If it wasn't for the CGI, this movie would have passed by unnoticed.

GHM · « **Reply #98 on:** 8 Jan 2010, 10:40 pm »

Some of you guys do way too much analyzing instead of enjoying the ride. Jeeezz its a wonder the critics here even enjoy sex !

You probably over analyze it too!

Wind Chaser · « **Reply #99 on:** 8 Jan 2010, 11:03 pm »

GHM, you lost me on that note. A mere observation has nothing to do with analysis.