[ctviggen]

[Facilitor note: this thread is the remnants of a "swiss cheess" thread, so if the first bunch of posts don't quite make sense, that's why. I have rescued what's left because it looks like there's lots of interesting discussion yet. -- JohnR]

I have an SVS sub and like it.  I believe there are quite a few benefits to tubes (and detriments, too).  I don't think it's correct to say that a box is the best sub configuration.  It's a valid configuration, but it's not the "best."  By the way, HSU is also making a tube sub.  Does this mean that HSU is saying that tube is best?  No, it just means there are reasons for using tubes and reasons for using boxes.  The next sub I get will likely be a VMPS, which is a box-type sub, but I'm getting it because I like the VMPS design, not because it's in a box.

[mattybumpkin]

For the information, I am just now beginning a search for a sub, or woofer depending on how low I want to go.  All information helps.

Question or two,

Being you are in the UK, the MJ Acoustics Pro 50 is a 8" driver and they claim down to 15Hz. Thoughts?  Also, any idea what driver they use?  Many say that MJ is a clone of Rel, any experience with them?

Thnx,

"M"

[Bryan]

Tube subs:
These are sonoflex cardboard. They solve problems of enclosure size and standing waves but: these cardboard tubes are not that rigid, and not superior to a solid conventional sub cabinet. They have decent measured output, but are not as tight at the bottom as decent conventional subs. They also do not produce the same type impact as a conventional sub, but a more "filling" bass.Did you notice both SVS and HSU have been building BOXES lately?

Lest you kid yourself, both HSU and SVS have ventured into the box sub world because consumers have demanded it. I'm certain both will continue to manufacture tube subs for as long as they are in business. Aside from that, if those cardboard tubes were not that rigid why would they be used in pylon construction for highways and buildings? Aside from that, my 20-39CS produces a far better and more impactful bass than many of the commercial subs out there (Velodyne, JBL, etc.). That being said, I will likely be going to a VMPS one due to styling and, from those who have heard them, it should be better than my current SVS. Just upgrading from one passive sub to another.

[maxwalrath]

I just wanted to add that 99% of music doesn't go beneath 25 hertz, with the exception being home theater. Most of us don't need to worry about spending huge amounts of money for those last few hertz when it comes to 2 channel audio.

[Rob Babcock]

Okay, in the interest of keeping this simple for the newbies, I've refrained from commenting, but I have to stand up for the "tube sub."  I have a pair of Hsu subs and I can tell you flatly that the cylinder enclosure is deader than *any* box sub I've ever heard (not that I've heard them all).  Even the most rigid box sub 'wants' to flex, but a cylinder/sphere is the smallest shape (ie a box wants to expand into a sphere- a tube essesntially is already 'expanded').  Likewise, if you lay your hand on one of my subs at high volume you can't feel any vibration to speak of.

I've got my subs calibrated well and eq'd with a parametric eq.  I wonder how many peoples opinions of subs are based on hearing them setup really poorly, whether in ill-calibrated dealer rigs or careless plopped down in the nearest corner...

Of course there is no disputing a matter of taste, and you like what you like (eg., I know you don't care much for ported subs), but the tube sub can perform very well.  And I have seen DIY tube subs that are sealed.

Just my $.02.

[nigel_pl]

IanATC,

You do have some good points but...

Tube subs:
These are sonoflex cardboard. They solve problems of enclosure size and standing waves but: these cardboard tubes are not that rigid, and not superior to a solid conventional sub cabinet. They have decent measured output, but are not as tight at the bottom as decent conventional subs. They also do not produce the same type impact as a conventional sub, but a more "filling" bass. Did you notice both SVS and HSU have been building BOXES lately?

I'm curious. Can you give us an example of a boxed sub outperforming a Hsu or SVS tube sub around the same price range? You mentioned HSU and SVS and made the assumption that they started making box enclosures because boxes sounded better which is simply untrue in the case of HSU.

Which tube sub did you listen to? To generalise that all tube subs sound the same is being a little narrow minded. Have you heard a HSU or SVS tube sub? HSU still recommends the tubes over its boxes if someone is after maximum volume at lower frequencies with minimum distortion. Here is an independant review of its box design compared to its tube. The TN1220 is the tube and the VTF-3 is the box.

http://hsuresearch.com/reviews/index.php?id=6

Both the VTF-3 and SVS 16-46PC could play louder at 20 Hz than the limits noted, but in doing so they generated a fair amount of port noise. The TN1220HO and F1800RII were right up against their amp-output ceilings during those tests, and both were clean.

Against Hsu’s own TN1220HO model (driven by the new 250-watt Hsu amp mentioned previously), the results were identical in terms of output at both 30 Hz and 20 Hz, although at fairly high levels the TN1220HO was cleaner at 20 Hz. At 30 Hz, they paced each other right up to very high levels. With music, the subs were functionally identical sounding at sane listening levels.

and if you've read the reviews of the Hsu VTF-3 box it is no slouch either

[Rob Babcock]

You have a right to your opinion, Ian, but IMO the Hsu crushes every 15 incher I've ever heard, not that I've heard them all.  You are right about displacement, but the size diameter of the woofer is only one part of that equasion, and not the most important part (again, JMOHO).  Good bass requires three things: 1) A reasonably large driver, 2) Good linear excursion (Xmas), and 3) A large enclosure.  

I've never heard an SVS sub, so I don't know if the designs are well executed or not.  But compare the internal volume of even their smallest model with the average 15 sub on the market.  You need a big enclosure.

I know you like sealed boxes, but to me most box subs sound, well, boxy.  No matter how rigidly you try to build the a rectangulare or square box, it will flex and vibrate.  And you need a pretty large sealed sub to avoid pretty drastic rolloff at very low freq.  With a music sub you may not think that's an issue, but it depends what type of music you listen too.  IMO, a pipe organ loses its power and mystique without a sub that can nail the fundamental tones.  One advantage of the ported or passive rad is you get higher sensitivity, which leads to lower distortion (ie the driver doesn't have to work as hard).

This thread is starting to veer off course in a sense- I'd hate for newbies that just want to learn subwoofer basics to see this and think "man, this stuff is from outer space."  But I'd have to say that the debate between sealed vs ported vs passive rad is a bit of a red herring- the execution matters more that the type of design used, within reason (and within the laws of physics).

Just keep in mind guys that in a matter of taste, no one can dictate what's right or wrong.  If IanATC likes 'em sealed, that's fine.

Just one note, though, Ian.  You might want to have the Hsu looked at to see is something is wrong with it- your findings are 180 out of my comparisons with several of the same subs.  One prob you can have with the Hsu is that with the driver on top of a tall tube, the voice coil can get out of alignment it the thing gets tipped over.  You may want to see if that is the case.

Rob

[JohnR]

This seems to be a comparison of a 12" driver vs a 15" driver, not of tubes vs boxes - ? No-one could be surprised that the 15" wins, its larger area, volume displacement, and lower fs and thus group delay at audible frequencies should assure that.

OK, so that's not starting block material either.... maybe we should consider splitting this thread to 2ch or the lab - ?

[Rob Babcock]

No offense was meant, IanATC, and I certainly haven't heard them all.  And I didn't mean to imply that you couldn't tell a bad woofer, just pointing out that can happen.  Certainly a 15" woofer should "woof" more than a 12", but as JohnR says, that's more a comparison between woofer sizes than types.

I also don't mean to imply you weren't fair in your comparisons, just mentioning my experiences were different.

One last thing about the HSU; you may or may not be aware that it is designed to be used with one certain amp- that amp contains eq to flatten and extend the low end.  Why would it need that if tubes are so great?  'Cos Hsu designs it to be overdamped.  The EQ brings the response to 18 hz flat, anachoic.

And if my puny Hsu can't crank out enough bass for you, I'll have you know that I use a pair of them, not just one!

I just don't want noobs to think you can stuff a driver in a box and it'll magically change the laws of physics!  (eg port length, internal volume, etc).

As to which is best, I'll agree to disagree if that's okay with you.  No hard feelings on my part if there's none on yours!   You're a big source of good info in this circle, and I'm not trying to piss you off!

[Rob Babcock]

BTW, no, I haven't heard a Stryke or a really big Adire.  They'd be too much for any 12" to match.  I know that.

[DeanSheen]

I dont like the sound from sonotube subs and happen to agree with our old friend ALEX, sealed boxes for music, it just makes sense.

[Brian Bunge]

I too prefer sealed subs over ported subs, but there is no "best" anything.  It's all in the implementation.  Tube style subs, ported or sealed, have several advantages.  First and foremost, ease of contruction.  This greatly reduces manufacturing costs.  Second, they need little to no bracing due to the fact that they are incapable of flexing.  Only the endcaps can flex (this also reduces manufacturing costs).  And third, they allow for plenty of internal volume while maintaining a small footprint.  I know guys that were building tube subs back in the 50's and 60's.

Still, I prefer box style subs for aesthetic reasons.  And as one of the old DIY'ers likes to say, there is no acoustic advantage to a properly designed and contructed tube over a properly designed and constructed box sub.  Of course, this rules out pretty much 99% of the box subs on the market.  

[EchiDna]

hehe... interesting thread...

IMHO, any *edit* well designed */edit* DIY sub of any design type will beat any equally priced, equally designed commercial sub. Thats reality. DIY saves money when talking speakers.

15 inch, 12 inch, box, sealed, ported, tube... no difference in my opinion IF we are talking same $$ spent on finished commercial products. Add DIY into the mix and it suddenly becomes interesting as tubes are way cheaper than boxes to build so there is more $$ left for where it really counts, amps, crossovers and drivers.

with regard to cabinet rigidity, a thick (we are talking 1 inch plus) box will be adequate IMHO, but that costs $$ compared to a tube, even a 24 inch diameter tube.

[JackStraw]

Another design element to debate is the difference between front-firing and down-firing woofers. I've heard the argument that front has more impact but if set up wrong can sound more directional. Down-firing looks better IMO. I'm interested in your thoughts on this folks...

[Brian Bunge]

IMHO, people make WAY too much out of front firing vs. downfiring.  Look at several of the most highly praised "music" subs on the planet.  I'm talking about REL, ACI, and the little Vandersteen sub with the 3 8" drivers.  All of these are downfiring.  I've never seen anyone complain about integration problems with any of them.

[Carlman]

I thought front-firing was the cat's ass but, I got the downfiring and it sounds very good.  I turned it on its side to make it front-firing and didn't really notice a difference in sound quality or quantity.

The biggest difference is that the way the vibrations go over my pant legs (front firing) while listening to really bass-heavy music vs. being felt in the floor (downfiring).

I'm a novice to subs so, I figure the makers know best.  

I think the only way it'd sound remarkably different is if you were crossing over at a fairly high frequency... that would make the imaging change a bit so that the sub became part of what's producing the 'sonic image'.  In that case, positioning and firing direction would be more important.

[Kevin P]

I'd agree with Brian on all points.... people make a lot more of these design elements than they deserve.  

One of the things that I continually strive to get across to people is that the most important decision you can make concerning subwoofer performance is the room you put it in.   Yes... stop obsessing over front vs. down, tube vs. box and spend some time working on room treatment.   The bang/$ here is off the charts compared to pointy feet, cables and buying cryo treated products.  Not only is it audible it is MEASURABLE and boomy bass has a lot more to do with the room than some of these other design factors.   An untreated room problem causes subjective issues across the audible spectrum and making choices concerning your system with a poor acoustical environment is just wasting time and money.  

[Brian Bunge]

I think the only way it'd sound remarkably different is if you were crossing over at a fairly high frequency... that would make the imaging change a bit so that the sub became part of what's producing the 'sonic image'. In that case, positioning and firing direction would be more important.

Carl,

Exactly.  And at the point where you start getting into directionality issues I'd want to go with "stereo" subs to make them less localizable.  That is, assuming the single sub can't be placed somewhere in between the mains.

[doug s.]

hehe... interesting thread...

IMHO, any *edit* well designed */edit* DIY sub of any design type will beat any equally priced, equally designed commercial sub. Thats reality. DIY saves money when talking speakers.

15 inch, 12 inch, box, sealed, ported, tube... no difference in my opinion IF we are talking same $$ spent on finished commercial products. Add DIY into the mix and it suddenly becomes interesting as tubes are way cheaper than boxes to build so there is more $$ left for where it really counts ...

i used to believe this, but it's not always true: 2 years of lurking on the diy basslist conwinced me that i could never exceed the quantity & quality of bass for the same price of a pair of brand-new vmps larger subs w/all the upgrades.  this included my cost of a new marchand x-over & used amplification.  this from a cheapskate that usually buys used, demo or close-out.

re: full-range monitors - i got my subs when i was using floor-standers that were -2db at 20hz.  the improvement in bass was excellent, as well as the improvement in the lower mids, as my floorstanders dint have to go down past 70hz anymore...  better imaging & soundstaging as well.

ymmv,

doug s.

[Brian Bunge]

I'll take my downfiring Tumult, Crown K2 and LT circuit any day of the week!