[Brian Bunge]

Ian,

No big deal.  If that had been my first post in the thread then I could understand your jumping on the defensive.

Anyway, there's another issue with front firing subs.  When you have high excursion drivers such as the Tumult, and even your Titanic 15 MKIII, you have the potential of the sub walking across the floor during bass heavy passages.  If your room is carpeted and you have spikes it istn'a as much of an issue, but if you've got hardwood floors that sucker better have some sort of sticky feet on it to keep it in place.

When speaking with Dan Wiggins once he told me that they were actually having subwoofer races in their plant one time.  He said the concrete floor sloped just enough that they could make a downfiring tumult walk across the floor with a 30Hz sine wave.  

[doug s.]

...I agree with Dougs findings and want his sub. ...

thanks, ian!  

seriously, careful shopping nabbed me a new pair of vmps largers, a new marchand xm-9LL, & a used adcom gfa555, all for ~$2k.  if anyone can show me how i can beat this performance for this price, i'm interested.  also, if ya wanna diy the sub cabinets, and the x-over, ya can get it for even *less*...  

also note that i am biased towards the necessity of having *stereo* subs for best soundstaging, & having an active x-over to relieve the monitors of having to do those lowest frequencies.

doug s.

[Carlman]

I have a downfiring sub on a hardwood floor on the bottom floor of a house that has a 'crawl space' beneath it.  It STILL sounds good.  I really don't need to compare it to know that, though.  (I'm saying this snide remark to make a point)

My point: I think some people need to lighten up a bit on this thread.  It's dangerously close to getting split off to FC for a Sonotube vs. box sub design debate thread.  While some of the info is good, the back and forth stuff is getting outside of this Circle's purpose.

From what I can tell the single most important part of the sub... is the sub itself.  The moving speaker part, that is.  Second is tuning it to the right crossover frequency... and I guess room treatments.  I really don't know what room treatments are needed for a sub.  It's a sub.

-Carl

[Brian Bunge]

Doug,

I don't know the price of the Marchand unit, but I think dual Tumults ($998), a Behringer Eurorack amp ($349) and a couple of sheets of MDF ($40) should get you somehwere around the $2K range.  

If dual sealed Tumults don't get you the SPL's you want then build new cabinets, each with 2 18" PR's, sit back, and hold on!

[bubba966]

BUBBA LIKES M&K  who make SEALED BOX SUBS!!!!

Yeah, I am particularly fond of my front firing sealed M&K's.

I don't like ported subs.

I've not liked most of the downfiring subs I've listened to. Though the 10" Adire XBL^2 driver in the CSS sub was actually quite good. I wish I coulda heard the DIY Cable WMD, but I didn't have enough time at VSAC to do so.

I've not really heard any tube subs that I recall.

It would be interesting to hear an Adire XBL^2 driver placed in a sealed sonotube type enclosure. I doubt that cabinet flex would be an issue. But you'd have to weight it down I'd imagine.

That's the only problem with tube subs that I can see offhand. I don't know what SVS & HSU do with their tube subs. So I can't say what they've done to address the weight problem.

I'd think that you could take care of it like so...

Take 2 different diameter sonotubes. One for the sub itself, and one larger one to fit over it with some good deal of space between the two. Fill the space between the two with cement. 'course you'd have to at least cap off the bottom space between the tubes...

I'd imagine that while such a procedure would prove time consuming (and be a bit messy) that you'd end up with quite an impressive sub.

And I don't intend to make this an enclosure argument. I've just happened to have preferred sealed front firing box subs fom M&K. That's what works for me. Tube subs have worked great for some people, and they've worked not so swell for other people.

But I do think there's more than just the enclosure to why something works for someone, and not for someone else.

You've got the room size & structure, driver size & build, amplification, crossover, personal prefferenc, etc., etc., etc.

[doug s.]

Doug,

I don't know the price of the Marchand unit, but I think dual Tumults ($998), a Behringer Eurorack amp ($349) and a couple of sheets of MDF ($40) should get you somehwere around the $2K range.  

If dual sealed Tumults don't get you the SPL's you want then build new cabinets, each with 2 18" PR's, sit back, and hold on!

brian, a pair of tumults might come close to what i have.  *might* is the operative word here, imo...  but, why would i wanna do this?  using an outboard active x-over like the marchand will be far more transparent a way to cross my monitors to my subs.  so, i have to spend about the same $$$, and do diy for performance that *might* get me close to what i have?    

extension to 17hz is really enuff for me now.  especially w/output to 120db & <5% thd.  my subs (older upright iterations), are rated at 95db w/0.5% thd from 17hz-250hz...  that's for *one*, & i have a pair.  what is your suggested set-up gonna gain me?

re: your second option, this may really be nice, but it's more $$$, no?  and, will it still appreciably out-do (or even equal) what i have?

regards,

doug s.

[Kevin P]

brian, a pair of tumults might come close to what i have.  *might* is the operative word here, imo...  but, why would i wanna do this?  using an outboard active x-over like the marchand will be far more transparent a way to cross my monitors to my subs.  so, i have to spend about the same $$$, and do diy for performance that *might* get me close to what i have?    

extension to 17hz is really enuff for me now.  especially w/output to 120db & <5% thd.  my subs (older upright iterations), are ra ...

I'm not going to argue subjective viewpoints because it is a waste of time but there is no way in hell that your going to come close to the output of a pair of Tumults when properly used.  When Brian sends one of his unit to an objective third party to measure only then will I believe this 120db & <5% distorition.   Those specs are not worth the paper they are written on.   It doesn't take a whole lot to do some calculations to see what kind of excursion that driver would need to have and the power needed to drive it and your going to find out that it just isn't possible....  These specs without any information on how they are measured, at what frequencies are total BS.  

Had to get that off my chest.

[doug s.]

I'm not going to argue subjective viewpoints because it is a waste of time but there is no way in hell that your going to come close to the output of a pair of Tumults when properly used. When Brian sends one of his unit to an objective third party to measure only then will I believe this 120db & <5% distorition. Those specs are not worth the paper they are written on. It doesn't take a whole lot to do some calculations to see what kind of excursion that driver would need to have and the power needed to drive it and your going to find out that it just isn't possible.... These specs without any information on how they are measured, at what frequencies are total BS.

Had to get that off my chest.

anyone who wants to test the vmps subs is welcome to do so.  why does brian have to send 'em out to be tested?  if i were a competitor, & i dint believe those specs, *i'd* pay to have 'em tested, yust to disprove bogus specs that could eat into my sales.

i'd be surprised if the vmps specs weren't in the ballpark of being correct for two reasons - 1st, i don't tink brian wants to be sued for falsifying the performance of his product, & 2nd, i've *heard* 'em!  

even the $3k 18" servo velodyne sub doesn't compare to the vmps largers, imo.  the only subwoofer system i ever heard that is as good, or better than the vmps largers is the servo-driven subwoofer towers of the infinity irs systems.  we're talking six 12" drivers per side in 7' towers...  now, i admit i haven't heard a lot of other subs, but i do know good, tight, accurate, textured realistic bass when i hear it.

regards,

doug s.

[Brian Bunge]

Doug,

I was saying that possibly your Marchand unit, dual Tumults, and the Europower amp might come close price wise to your current setup.  Since I don't know the price of your Marchand unit I can't be certain.

I'd put a single Tumult up against an HGS-18 any day.  Hell, the Adire Dharman is roughly equivalent to the HGS-15, so I'd say a Tempest in the right enclosure would easily match the HGS-18.  The Tumult should walk all over it.  BTW, a single Tumult is roughly equivalent to 4 Tempests in clean output.  

I'd expect 2 Tumults and 4 18" PR's in the right enclosure and the right amount of power to bury the dual VMPS subs.  This should get you roughly 120dB anechoic from 20Hz and up (which means well over 120dB in room) and over 110dB anechoic from 13Hz and up.  And it should be less than 3% THD anywhere above 15Hz or so.  What I'm describing is basically Acoustic Vision's Everest sub.  

Without knowing the full specs of the VMPS drivers I can only make an educated guess as to how well they'd stack up but I'd bet the drivers aren't any more heavy duty than the Shiva and Tempest.  Clearly a sub with a single active Shiva, single active Tempest, and a PR can't touch a single Tumult.  

Now I don't want you to think I'm crapping on the VMPS sub because I'm not.  I've never heard them and there's much more to subs than max SPL.  I'm just saying that there are drivers out there that can pound out the SPL's and do it with very low distortion.  I'd love to see a professional review of the Larger some day.  

Yes, this is over $2K, but it could still be done for less than $2K with the right driver compliment and right design.  I think ThomasW's "12 Shivas Dancing" IB subwoofer would be a huge contender and there's NO box in the room!

[Kevin P]

anyone who wants to test the vmps subs is welcome to do so.  why does brian have to send 'em out to be tested?  if i were a competitor, & i dint believe those specs, *i'd* pay to have 'em tested, yust to disprove bogus specs that could eat into my sales.

For one it isn't my responsibility nor anyone else to pay to get his product measured.  If I paid to have every product measured where I thought the specs where nothing but BS I'd be broke in a New York minute.  

For two even if I paid to have someone measure it and the results came back well under the published specs do you think it would change anyone's mind?  Would you trade in your sub and buy one from me?  Nope... people don't work like that.  Once you prove someone wrong in an objective manner that cannot be argued with it doesn't suddenly make you look better in his or her eyes.   Particularly when it is something they have an emotional attachment to.

Just to leave you with something to ponder...You know what the cost is for Nousaine to measure them and stack it up against everything else on the market?  Less than the price of ONE of any of those subs we are talking about.   Do you know how much it would cost to publish the specs on the drivers?  Nada..  nothing.. zip.   Reasons for not doing so?  I'll leave that up to you to figure out.

[JohnR]

I think it's more of an issue of how the measurements are taken than whether the numbers are bogus.

[hayden]

I've got to defend the DIY approach for performance, and "value."
Doug S., here is an example of one version of a sub system that I've tried:
(2) Blueprint 1803 drivers ($500 retail, I paid less)
(1) QSC MX1500a ($250 used)
(1) Behringer Feedback Destroyer ($100 retail, I paid less)
(1) Custom LT circuit ($150)
Misc. sonotube and mdf ($100)
For roughly $1,000, I would bet that anyone would find it difficult to "best" the output and SQ of this this system.  I don't know the specs on the VMPS subs, but with the Blueprints your are getting roughly 12 litres of linear displacement!  I only used one BP 1803 now, because two was actually overpowering!  This is just an example, I am sure that others could describe systems using the new high excursion drivers, IB arrangements, multiple "budget" Adire/PE/RE drivers, etc.
Respectfully,
JP

[Kevin P]

JohnR:   Yes... really none of these measurements have any meaning unless you specify how they were measured.   Most consumers don't understand that there isn't a standard in the industry for how we measure subs or speakers.   Hence... I can stick my big monster sub in a concrete cube closet and measure it at one frequency and report an SPL and percent distortion.  Is it reflective of how that product compares with anything else???.... nope.  Just gives you something to put on the sales brochure.

[doug s.]

brian, keven, & all,

please don't get me wrong - i am sure there's other ways to skin a cat.  but, for a plug-n-play system, the vmps' are hard to beat.  if i really thought i could have done better at the time (circa 1995) w/o too much difficulty, for the same price, (or nominally more), i wooda done so.  

re this comment:

...I'd expect 2 Tumults and 4 18" PR's in the right enclosure and the right amount of power to bury the dual VMPS subs. This should get you roughly 120dB anechoic from 20Hz and up (which means well over 120dB in room) and over 110dB anechoic from 13Hz and up. And it should be less than 3% THD anywhere above 15Hz or so. What I'm describing is basically Acoustic Vision's Everest sub.
...

i am curious how much the everest sub goes for.  & i'd be interested in hearing about a plug-n-play sub w/one tumult & two 18" pr's, or a plug-n-play kit, if the price were right...

regards,

doug s.

[JohnR]

One comment, it's not simply DIY vs prebuilt. I know Doug (and many others) loves his VMPS Larger subs. They can be bought as a kit for $329, or $469 with the megawoofers. Regardless of specs, for two drivers and a PR that seems like a great deal, assuming of course you don't mind building large boxes - ! I've never *heard* of anyone actually building them, but that doesn't mean it can't be done

[IanATC]

Deleted because JohnR doesn't like it.  

[JohnR]

I hope I am pretty clear here.

Not exactly... what is it that makes the VMPS sub (a reflex alignment) an exception to your overwhelming preference for sealed subs?

[rosconey]

i looked for a long time to find a sub that wasnt one note-got lucky and heard the vmps large-bought one  the next day
i heard alot of more expensive units that sounded like a 100$ sub.

vmps subs are a different critter than most subs-magnet weight is 80oz not 25lbs,decent xmax but not 6inches,phase plugs,different material for each  driver.
the more xmax the longer it takes to get back to the middle, xmas is great for ht units.
magnet size seams dependent on xmas and for the stat lookers.

my sub is fast-clean and smooth and will wake up the guy next door if i want.

powered by odyssey monos

[IanATC]

Deleted because JohnR doesn't like it.  

[Mark T. Montgomery]

4. Competant subs for music or HT- these do not have to be the loudest, but the must integrate and carry a tune. The must have 1st octave bass, cleanly. Some boom is ok for HT because it's necessary. Should be switchable to music setting for more control.

5. Exceptional subs for music - these have high output, high speed, clarity, detail with excellent integration and no boom. Normally subs in this category for me are...you guessed it...SEALED.

Ian does DIY's Rava fall into one of these two categories?